2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

[TheGameEpisode2]

Why I brought it up...

PADRES’ HEADLEY: MORE APPEALING THAN YOUK?

Padres third baseman Chase Headley, 28, is five years younger than the Red Sox’s Kevin Youkilis and $8.525 million cheaper this season. Youk also plays first base, but Headley – a popular trade target, according to major-league sources – might be the more attractive commodity.

Headley, the Padres’ best offensive player, produced a 121 OPS-plus last season and has followed it with a 124 OPS-plus thus far. (OPS-plus is a particularly useful measure for hitters who play 81 games at hitter-hating Petco Park. The statistic is OPS adjusted to league and ballpark; the average is 100.)

The Padres, who are in the process of getting sold, might want to keep Headley and sign him long-term before he becomes a free agent after the 2014 season. But Headley, who currently is earning $3.475 million, might be too expensive for any Pads owner by then, and his potential replacement, Jedd Gyorko, is now at Triple A.

Gyorko currently is splitting time between second and third. The Padres want to keep their options open; Gyorko will play third if they trade Headley, second if they keep him.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/t...cutives-060312

[GimeMoMuny]

I'm still waiting for more references from this "universally known" problem of Hamels. That link above did not work for me, and even so, is there some other way of referencing this problem other than quoting an article from 2010?

Sorry that link didn't work.

Here's an old thread on a Philly board:

http://philaphans.com/community/inde...e/page__st__25

Outside of that, use google. Plenty of people have had issues with, and continue to keep an eye on Cole's mechanics.

So you don't like the possibility of Hamels because he might fall back on a bad habit which is supposedly "universally known?" And seemingly hasn't had any effect on him since that said article? Outside of one down year in 2009 this guy hasn't done nothing but pitch at an elite level.

If you didn't sign pitchers because of the possibility something might go wrong, while ignoring all other indications that they're fine and excelling, you'd be in some big trouble as a GM.

I find it unlikely anyway. But nowhere on this thread did I say that I wouldn't want him as a Yankee at a Yankee price w/ team options (I'm aware that's equally unlikely).

[teknetic]

Bold=More misrepresentation - you can't even help yourself.

Cole's had numerous mechanical issues, and he'll continue to have them matter what league he ends up in. He has 'tinkered' as shown in the article I posted above (or did you miss that)? And he's had success. I feel that it's possible that pitchers can fall back onto bad habits and if he did, the results would be worse in the AL. Sorry if you can't accept that.

I google'd articles regarding his mechanics (since your awesome link leads to nowhere) and came up with a few such this*:

Overall, Cole Hamels’ has some solid mechanics but does have some areas for concern. It seems that his elbows do come higher than his shoulders which increases pinching in the shoulder and could cause some problems. Although his arm is not vertical upon foot plant it does seem he is able to compensate for it most of the time. The closer he his able to get his arm to vertical when the shoulders rotate the less stress will be placed on the shoulder. It is good to hear that so far his shoulder problems are just minor. For the most part he does a good job of protecting the shoulder. His arm could wear down from time to time but hopefully not to the point where anything major needs to be done.

http://championpitching.com/pitching...ole-hamels.php

All the other links dates back to a few years back where fans are wondering how well his body and mechanics are gonna hold up. I can't even find any articles discussing his "numerous mechanical issues," so when you learn how to internet, perhaps you can find a working link and post it.

*including the philaphans one you just linked to where one post basically states the same thing I just did:

Now with Cole. I doubt Dubee or anyone else is going to get him to drastically change his mechanics unless he completely ................s the bed this season or get seriously injured due to his mechanics. And honestly, why would the team take that big of a risk changing the way a guy throws to “hope” that helps him get better when he is pitching “ok”. They may make tweaks here and there, but that’s it. Guys in the bigs don’t usually change their approach like that unless an injury tells them to find another motion to the plate

---

I'd love to hear your take on xFIP / relevant to this discussion? On second thought, you can add that type of idiocy to your wonderful "Let's sell high on Nova" thread!" Where you create, and continue to load a thread with nonsense (out of your ass) that highlights the sort of egocentric delusion that you appear to be under.

Speaking of relevancy

The Nova thread was based on the assumption that his numbers normalize -- I already had made a handful of posts wanting to see him be used as a trade chip during the off-season. I also made a whopping total of two posts in that thread. You're pretty bad at this.

[GimeMoMuny]

The Nova thread was based on the assumption that his numbers normalize -- I already had made a handful of posts wanting to see him be used as a trade chip during the off-season. I also made a whopping total of two posts in that thread. You're pretty bad at this.

Are you laughing at your trivial, bone headed response in this thread, or your monumental malfunction in your classic Nova thread? Either way, you're placing the psychological concept of projection on display for NYYFans.

Here, I'll have a smiley with you teknova:

Can we move on, please?

[Yankee Tripper]

Why I brought it up...

Yeah I do get that. I'm just trying to figure out what the Yanks would have to deal. I mean it's not like SD would be doing a pure salary dump. They are going to want legit prospects back.

[teknetic]

Are you laughing at your trivial, bone headed response in this thread, or your monumental malfunction in your classic Nova thread? Either way, you're placing the psychological concept of projection on display for NYYFans.

I'm laughing at you continuing to bring up a thread that has absolutely no relevance to the discussion at hand. Other than a failed link attempt to huffpost and a nearly three-year-old post -- which Hamels followed up with three dominant seasons -- made on a Philly message board, you've provided nothing other than "His mechanics are weird and he may revert at any moment!"

Here, I'll have a smiley with you teknova:

Hooray for more failed humor.

[grizy]

My issue with Hamels was he didn't have a third pitch when either his fastball or changeup wasn't working.

He's since solved that by developing a cutter and improving his curveball.

[GimeMoMuny]

Cole struggled with an erratic, unrepeatable delivery at times, beginning from his leg drive (a lot of pitchers do!). GRANTED He's done well with his cleaner, new approach to mechanics. (How much of that is due to facing some soft NL hitting - who knows?)

STILL He falls back to old ways intra-season, at times because his original way is what's comfortable to him. As he ages, it's still likely to be an issue. Not a deal breaker type issue, just something to watch.

None of this is groundbreaking, it seems, to anyone but teknova - (that's the guy that wanted to sell high on Ivan Nova last week). He's also, apparrently asked me to expand on my post. So, I'll oblige.

Here's a video (or snippett) about the subject (the video is not mine, just by someone who saw the same problem):

http://youtu.be/DP8VxlMbwCg

[grizy]

I had that issue guy spent forever describing in the video.

It was only because my legs were weak. A week of frog jumping around the track fixed it pretty well.

What that guy and a lot of people don't seem to understand is Hamels and a lot of other pitchers just have a natural feel for the ball. Variations in release points just not gonna matter as much to them as to others.

Matt Cain, Jake Peavy, Verlander, Weaver, and Dan Haren all have pretty wide variations on their release points. Lee and Halladay are the exceptions, not the rule.

[GimeMoMuny]

I had that issue guy spent forever describing in the video.

It was only because my legs were weak. A week of frog jumping around the track fixed it pretty well.

What that guy and a lot of people don't seem to understand is Hamels and a lot of other pitchers just have a natural feel for the ball. Variations in release points just not gonna matter as much to them as to others.

Matt Cain, Jake Peavy, Verlander, Weaver, and Dan Haren all have pretty wide variations on their release points. Lee and Halladay are the exceptions, not the rule.

Hamels did have his worst season in ML after that video that I posted, though.

Then there was a bit of a public campaign to rebuild CH's delivery after the Yankees ended the Phils' season and since then he's looked better, overall.

However, there are still spells where his legs look weak and his delivery gets complicated as he falls back to what's comfortable for him.

[35Knucklecurve]

If the issue is small enough, then, yes.

Would you agree?

I can't really say that I do agree. If a pitcher's mechanics get out of whack during a game, even the less threatening hitters are going to jump on him or wait him out for a BB. It also would depend, IMO, on whether the pitcher is able to spot his own delivery flaws because the coach/catcher isn't going to be able to keep trotting to the mound. The weaker hitters tend to be at the bottom of the order so if he starts falling apart there, he's got little room to breathe before the top of the order is up. If he starts falling apart at the top, he's got no room at all.

[NelsonMuntz]

The Nova thread was based on the assumption that his numbers normalize -- I already had made a handful of posts wanting to see him be used as a trade chip during the off-season. I also made a whopping total of two posts in that thread. You're pretty bad at this.

I don't get why he keeps bringing that up. It's not like Nova has been lights out this year. Selling high wouldn't have been the most awful idea in the world.

[NelsonMuntz]

I can't really say that I do agree. If a pitcher's mechanics get out of whack during a game, even the less threatening hitters are going to jump on him or wait him out for a BB. It also would depend, IMO, on whether the pitcher is able to spot his own delivery flaws because the coach/catcher isn't going to be able to keep trotting to the mound. The weaker hitters tend to be at the bottom of the order so if he starts falling apart there, he's got little room to breathe before the top of the order is up. If he starts falling apart at the top, he's got no room at all.

^ This. Look no further than Tim Lincecum and his 5.82 ERA in the NL West this year as evidence.

[GimeMoMuny]

^ This. Look no further than Tim Lincecum and his 5.82 ERA in the NL West this year as evidence.

Would his line be similar, or worse in the AL?

[NelsonMuntz]

Would his line be similar, or worse in the AL?

Probably a little worse, but at that point it's almost irrelevant. If you are giving up more than 5 runs per start you're not going to win many games in either league.

[teknetic]

None of this is groundbreaking, it seems, to anyone but teknova - (that's the guy that wanted to sell high on Ivan Nova last week). He's also, apparrently asked me to expand on my post. So, I'll oblige.

Teknova? What are you, five?

http://youtu.be/DP8VxlMbwCg

The comment was worth the click.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

the comment was worth the click.

qft!..

[Black Sabbathia]

Headley will be getting more expensive in his final two years of arbitration, which is why a cost conscious team like the Padres might be interested in trading him. They'll want a very good prospect return and several teams would bid on him.

Interesting idea. He's a switch hitter with better splits as a lefty and very good #'s pulling the ball to LF (1.055 OPS in 310 PA) which makes him look like an ideal candidate for power improvement going from Petco to NYS.

Definitely worth kicking the tires on, but he might not be worth the cost in prospects and say $10-11m or so in salary over the next two years.

[just-blaze]

Headley will be getting more expensive in his final two years of arbitration, which is why a cost conscious team like the Padres might be interested in trading him. They'll want a very good prospect return and several teams would bid on him.

Interesting idea. He's a switch hitter with better splits as a lefty and very good #'s pulling the ball to LF (1.055 OPS in 310 PA) which makes him look like an ideal candidate for power improvement going from Petco to NYS.

Definitely worth kicking the tires on, but he might not be worth the cost in prospects and say $10-11m or so in salary over the next two years.

Where are we going to put him?

[JohnnyDamonfan]

At third base I would think . A-rod is gonna DH soon so he would most likely be our third baseman.

[just-blaze]

At third base I would think . A-rod is gonna DH soon so he would most likely be our third baseman.

ARod is still playing very good defense at 3rd. He shouldn't be considered for the DH position anytime soon. Maybe in a couple of years.

Headley can play LF, but again we have Gardner.

This is a move to look into in the offseason.

[JohnnyDamonfan]

Gardner can play Right, right? Cause Headley could be our Left Fielder or Right Fielder. He might be a better option then resigning Swish depending on what he wants. But, either way you're right more of an offseason move regardless.

[Black Sabbathia]

Where are we going to put him?

He could split time at 3B when A-Rod is DH'ing (which should become an increasingly regular occurrence no matter how good his D has been just for the sake of keeping him healthy and productive at the plate) and RF if Swisher isn't brought back. He played a decent LF in cavernous Petco, I think he'd be alright patrolling RF in NYS. I don't think finding field innings and ABs for him would be a problem.

I'm not beating the trade for Chase Headley drum, I just think it's an interesting idea and one worth exploring to see what kind of asking price/demand there is for him. He'd be a nice fit for this club

[JohnnyDamonfan]

Here's a question though how much is too much for this guy?

[Black Sabbathia]

That's up to the market to decide I guess. Warren + JR Murphy? I'd probably offer more than that. The way Yankee prospects get overvalued that might be too much for some people.