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  1. #176

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    it was not.
    the deal there was directly related to increased chance of winning WS(s) assuming lee would be extended following a ws win, or at least great success.

    then some retards had to go dump beer on his wife. ffs.
    You're risk-averse when it comes to young pitcher injuries but you'll cross your fingers and hope the Cliff Lee signs on with the Yankees without any guarantee of that happening? This makes no sense. There's just as much risk there, plus even if it happens, signing Lee costs millions of dollars and maybe results in Cano or Granderson leaving (two guys much harder to replace than DH)


  2. #177

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    I guess I just have higher stadards for the word eliete than some. Pitchers on inning limits, with the sole exception of Strasburg, simply can't be eliete to me.
    Well, he should have been able to go ~200 innings this year, so maybe you consider him elite going forward? I think he had room to grow as well, so the possibility of elite was very real - I think even by your standards. I would generally consider #1 starters elite (Rocketbooster'd), and Pineda would have been that guy on several teams.

    After this year, I might have entertained a Montero for Matt Moore kind of deal. Maybe even Bumgarner.


    [quote]Right now? Based on what? Even if he is, Tiexiera has had terrible LH splits the past two seasons. Why wouldn't you simply give him the night off against tough RHP??

    [\QUOTE]

    Based on any offensive metric I guess. Montero has been pretty abysmal. I have no doubt he'll get much much better, but I would imagine Tex outperforms him for this year and the next. The larger point was that if you can come anywhere close to Montero's DH production with players you already have (I was thinking A-Rod mostly, though he's been meh), you achieve more value by getting a Pineda, whose performance I think WOULD have significantly outpaced our second starter.


  3. #178

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    I have posted this before, but it's worth a double post: Pineda led all starting pitchers in swinging strike percentage last year. For emphasis, that means that batters attempted and failed to make contact with his pitches more frequently than every other starter in baseball. Any questions about his talent or downplaying his performance last year are ridiculous. The only way to argue that the trade was bad is based on injury risk. That's fine as long as it's realized that Pineda actually getting injured doesn't change the argument at all.

  4. #179

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    [QUOTE=jcarey;7497629]Well, he should have been able to go ~200 innings this year, so maybe you consider him elite going forward? I think he had room to grow as well, so the possibility of elite was very real - I think even by your standards. I would generally consider #1 starters elite (Rocketbooster'd), and Pineda would have been that guy on several teams.

    After this year, I might have entertained a Montero for Matt Moore kind of deal. Maybe even Bumgarner.


    Right now? Based on what? Even if he is, Tiexiera has had terrible LH splits the past two seasons. Why wouldn't you simply give him the night off against tough RHP??

    [\QUOTE]

    Based on any offensive metric I guess. Montero has been pretty abysmal. I have no doubt he'll get much much better, but I would imagine Tex outperforms him for this year and the next. The larger point was that if you can come anywhere close to Montero's DH production with players you already have (I was thinking A-Rod mostly, though he's been meh), you achieve more value by getting a Pineda, whose performance I think WOULD have significantly outpaced our second starter.
    Bumgarner for Montero would have been a no brainer. I would have much prefered that to Pineda. If we are talking right now like you said, then I don't know what stats show you that Tex has been better this year (or since Montero came up). I agree Tex will most likely have better year end numbers (wouldn't shock me if he didn't Tex has looked pathetic), but again, when you have a player with such poor platoon split since 2010 it it makes more sense to sit him against RHP than DH him.

    When A-Rod DHs, Chavez has to play. Chavez has been good, but that could never have been predicted after last year. If A-Rod DHs 30 games, wouldn't it be better to not have Martin and Chavez in the lineup together?

    I doubt they plan on DHing A-Rod in the playoffs anyway, which is really all that matters. Montero DHing 125 games and Catching 25 games makes him a full time player which is why the "he had no position" nonsese is annoying. The notion that Montero would have been a part time player here is beyond silly.

  5. #180

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    [QUOTE=BennyTheJetRodriguez;7497653]
    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    Well, he should have been able to go ~200 innings this year, so maybe you consider him elite going forward? I think he had room to grow as well, so the possibility of elite was very real - I think even by your standards. I would generally consider #1 starters elite (Rocketbooster'd), and Pineda would have been that guy on several teams.

    After this year, I might have entertained a Montero for Matt Moore kind of deal. Maybe even Bumgarner.


    Bumgarner for Montero would have been a no brainer. I would have much prefered that to Pineda. If we are talking right now like you said, then I don't know what stats show you that Tex has been better this year (or since Montero came up). I agree Tex will most likely have better year end numbers (wouldn't shock me if he didn't Tex has looked pathetic), but again, when you have a player with such poor platoon split since 2010 it it makes more sense to sit him against RHP than DH him.

    When A-Rod DHs, Chavez has to play. Chavez has been good, but that could never have been predicted after last year. If A-Rod DHs 30 games, wouldn't it be better to not have Martin and Chavez in the lineup together?

    I doubt they plan on DHing A-Rod in the playoffs anyway, which is really all that matters. Montero DHing 125 games and Catching 25 games makes him a full time player which is why the "he had no position" nonsese is annoying. The notion that Montero would have been a part time player here is beyond silly.
    The problem with your scenario is that teams like Tampa or the Giants probably weren't inclined to make those trades for Montero.

    As to your bolded part, some of us won't ever agree on that so I won't bother rehashing the same counter-argument.

  6. #181

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    [QUOTE=Yankees1962;7497659]
    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    The problem with your scenario is that teams like Tampa or the Giants probably weren't inclined to make those trades for Montero.

    As to your bolded part, some of us won't ever agree on that so I won't bother rehashing the same counter-argument.
    Tampa? I'm sure if Bumgarner was available for Montero it would have happened. I'm actually a big Cashman fan, I just didn't like this particular trade. Hitting is becoming the rarity in today's MLB. Montero is yet to single handedly give a game away in the field for Seattle.

    On edit, I missed the part about Moore. He is also a big risk for that kind of trade, but like Pineda, would have been a tough talen to say no to.

  7. #182
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Trading Montero for Lee with no guarantee Lee would be around longer than half a season would be the definition of lunacy. If they gave us the window to negotiate, fine but without it, no way would I trade someone like that for him. Now of course if we knew what would happen with Pineda I'd say the same.
    Life is good!

  8. #183

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Having Montero DH in the playoffs...that's a good point. I posted a while ago that I'd rather have a lockdown pitcher than a talented hitter in the playoffs but acknowledged the damage that a batter in a tear can inflict...Beltran, Bonds, A-Rod, Ellsbury, Ross, and Freese recently come to mind.

    It just seems a bit haphazard which hitters are going to find a groove during the postseason, and a top pitcher seems like a safer bet.

    I do agree that playoffs are all that matters really since our team is good enough to get there already.


  9. #184
    NYYF Legend

    Donnybaseball72's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Bumgarner for Montero would never happen because of Buster Posey

  10. #185
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    I would have been all over Bumgarner if that was a real opportunity.
    Please sign David Robertson and Chase Headley.

  11. #186

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnybaseball72 View Post
    Bumgarner for Montero would never happen because of Buster Posey
    Anybody can play first base.

  12. #187
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    Anybody can play first base.
    Ok Billy Beane

    hqdefault.jpg

  13. #188

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Oops, wrong thread

  14. #189
    Richmond Virginians
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear


  15. #190

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnybaseball72 View Post
    Ok Billy Beane

    Attachment 21030
    He's right.

  16. #191

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    You're risk-averse when it comes to young pitcher injuries but you'll cross your fingers and hope the Cliff Lee signs on with the Yankees without any guarantee of that happening? This makes no sense. There's just as much risk there, plus even if it happens, signing Lee costs millions of dollars and maybe results in Cano or Granderson leaving (two guys much harder to replace than DH)
    young pitchers are those who have yet to be stress tested. this is not so for established starters with a lot of innings. lee has a history of back problems and back then i took that into account, and if you recall i was not very enthusiastic about dealing montero for lee for this and club control length reasons.
    always reasonable

  17. #192

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Axon View Post
    Pronouncing the trade a bust?

    NYYFans did the same thing with Ajax/Granderson, and there's no doubt we got a better player in that deal. But the hand wringing was epic.

    Granderson is better than AJax...but is he better than Kennedy, Coke AND AJax?

    Whoops, I gotta go wipe some horse blood off my foot...

  18. #193

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    actually yea he is
    always reasonable

  19. #194

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    actually yea he is

    Yup, without a doubt.
    Team Northern Lights

  20. #195
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    ....and now Jose Campos has gone down with an elbow injury.

    This team really is cursed when it comes to young pitching.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  21. #196

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    ....and now Jose Campos has gone down with an elbow injury.

    This team really is cursed when it comes to young pitching.
    Met and Cubs fans can talk about being cursed, but Yankee fans need to get a grip.
    Last edited by Yankees1962; 05-06-12 at 01:29 PM.

  22. #197
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    Met and Yankee fans can talk about being cursed, but Yankee fans need to get a grip.
    I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean - are you denying that this team has been extremely unlucky with its young pitchers? We're only one month into the season, and Pineda and Joba are done for the year, Campos is having elbow issues, Man-Bam is having back issues, while Betances and Hughes have been ineffective.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  23. #198
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean - are you denying that this team has been extremely unlucky with its young pitchers? We're only one month into the season, and Pineda and Joba are done for the year, Campos is having elbow issues, Man-Bam is having back issues, while Betances and Hughes have been ineffective.

    I think what he means is that winning 5 world series in the last 15 years excludes you from claiming a curse has been spelled upon your team.

  24. #199

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnybaseball72 View Post
    I think what he means is that winning 5 world series in the last 15 years excludes you from claiming a curse has been spelled upon your team.
    Thank you. The Yankees are going through a rough patch right now, all teams go through them especially with the injury bug. This season, it's the Yankees turn, but that doesn't mean you stop acquiring young pitching and doing your best to develop them. Some nuggets will eventually sift through the screens.

  25. #200

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean - are you denying that this team has been extremely unlucky with its young pitchers? We're only one month into the season, and Pineda and Joba are done for the year, Campos is having elbow issues, Man-Bam is having back issues, while Betances and Hughes have been ineffective.
    I meant to say Mets and Cubs which would make my meaning more clearly. There are reports that Campos elbow issue is minor without any structural damage.

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