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  1. #101
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    Randy Johnson was about league average for the two years he pitched for the Yankees.
    I also had the impression that RJ's signing was on The Boss - he was obsessed with getting him after the 2001 WS. I know I probably won't be able to find the article at this point, but I do recall reading that Cashman wasn't exactly doing cartwheels over the deal.

    Besides having back issues, RJ was miserable in NY. He couldn't cope with all the media attention and constant scruitiny. However, he did his best, IMO. It just wasn't what everyone expected.
    September 28, 2008 - the day the HOF got a wake-up Moose call.

  2. #102
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    Despite the current situation, Pineda could easily have been our second or third starter and pitchers of this quality are hard to come by. Compos might just have a bright future with us also.

    Let me give you all a little perspective. As a Yankee fan of long time following, I have seen many, many "can't miss" offensive phenoms come and go. Here are some;
    Bam Aam Balboni
    Hensley Muelins
    Dave Pasqua
    Ron Bloomberg
    Kevin Maas
    Gordon Windhorn
    Johnnie Ellis
    Gerald Williams
    Nick Johnson
    Bubba Crosby
    Marcus Thames
    Shelley Duncan
    Rickey LaDee
    DiAngelo Jiminez
    Austin Jackson

    Almost all were at least adequate at defense; almost all came up with a big bang, having a great first month or two offensively.

    Montero was never going to be a Yankee catcher and he had no other position except for DH. His trade value was at an all time high after last September and he brought us a stud pitcher and a dark horse candidate. There was no other ML GM who wouldn't have made that trade, monday Morning QBacking aside. It's nice to think one should have been aware that an arm injury was in the cards, but it simply wasn't true.

    Andy
    I thought it was "Bye-Bye Balboni", no?
    And Bam Bam Muelins.
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  3. #103

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    I thought it was "Bye-Bye Balboni", no?
    And Bam Bam Muelins.
    At least he got Dave Pasqua right.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  4. #104
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by 35Knucklecurve View Post
    Besides having back issues, RJ was miserable in NY. He couldn't cope with all the media attention and constant scruitiny. However, he did his best, IMO. It just wasn't what everyone expected.
    He did. He was also friggin' 40.
    Attention Steinbrenner and front-office morons! Your triumphs mean nothing. You all stink. You can sit on it, and rotate! This is George Costanza. I fear no reprisal. Extension 5-1-7-0.

  5. #105
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    Despite the current situation, Pineda could easily have been our second or third starter and pitchers of this quality are hard to come by. Compos might just have a bright future with us also.

    Let me give you all a little perspective. As a Yankee fan of long time following, I have seen many, many "can't miss" offensive phenoms come and go. Here are some;
    Bam Aam Balboni
    Hensley Muelins
    Dave Pasqua
    Ron Bloomberg
    Kevin Maas
    Gordon Windhorn
    Johnnie Ellis
    Gerald Williams
    Nick Johnson
    Bubba Crosby
    Marcus Thames
    Shelley Duncan
    Rickey LaDee
    DiAngelo Jiminez
    Austin Jackson

    Almost all were at least adequate at defense; almost all came up with a big bang, having a great first month or two offensively.

    Montero was never going to be a Yankee catcher and he had no other position except for DH. His trade value was at an all time high after last September and he brought us a stud pitcher and a dark horse candidate. There was no other ML GM who wouldn't have made that trade, monday Morning QBacking aside. It's nice to think one should have been aware that an arm injury was in the cards, but it simply wasn't true.

    Andy
    I get what your saying and agree that Montero, while an awesome talent, is being given too much of a fan guarantee that he'll hit his ceiling... but these examples are really not apples to apples. None of these guys were viewed as favorably as Montero with the bat.

    Bubba Crosby?

  6. #106
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    At least he got Dave Pasqua right.
    Haha... I remember as a young kid thinking Pasqua was going to be an animal... I think that was the first time I can recall (but certainly not the last) hearing about a LH slugger having a swing "tailor made" for Yankee Stadium, but ultimately flaming out.

  7. #107

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Haha... I remember as a young kid thinking Pasqua was going to be an animal... I think that was the first time I can recall (but certainly not the last) hearing about a LH slugger having a swing "tailor made" for Yankee Stadium, but ultimately flaming out.
    Steve Kemp was before that. Admittedly a veteran as opposed to a prospect, but still a complete bust.

    EDIT: And I just realized we traded Kemp to Pittsburgh and got Jay Buhner in return. Holy crap, I'd forgotten that.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  8. #108
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    Despite the current situation, Pineda could easily have been our second or third starter and pitchers of this quality are hard to come by. Compos might just have a bright future with us also.

    Let me give you all a little perspective. As a Yankee fan of long time following, I have seen many, many "can't miss" offensive phenoms come and go. Here are some;
    Bam Aam Balboni
    Hensley Muelins
    Dave Pasqua
    Ron Bloomberg
    Kevin Maas
    Gordon Windhorn
    Johnnie Ellis
    Gerald Williams
    Nick Johnson
    Bubba Crosby
    Marcus Thames
    Shelley Duncan
    Rickey LaDee
    DiAngelo Jiminez
    Austin Jackson

    Almost all were at least adequate at defense; almost all came up with a big bang, having a great first month or two offensively.

    Montero was never going to be a Yankee catcher and he had no other position except for DH. His trade value was at an all time high after last September and he brought us a stud pitcher and a dark horse candidate. There was no other ML GM who wouldn't have made that trade, monday Morning QBacking aside. It's nice to think one should have been aware that an arm injury was in the cards, but it simply wasn't true.

    Andy
    None of these payers were considered "can't miss" except maybe Nick Johnson and Austin Jackson who almost won ROY. Balboni was 28 when he came up from the minors! A better example would have been Ruben Rivera.

    Montero would have caught with the Yankees. He's catching with Seattle so I can't see why he wouldn't catch/DH. Montero is the most talented hitter to come out of the Yankees system since Jeter and this trade is going to hurt for a long time if Pineda doesn't pan out.

  9. #109

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnybaseball72 View Post
    Montero is the most talented hitter to come out of the Yankees system since Jeter
    He's one of the most, but not necessaily the most. Robinson Cano (while not nearly as hyped) was every bit as good. You could put Alfonso Soriano (though not a pure product of the Yankees' farm system) into the conversation as well.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  10. #110
    Re2pect Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    He's gone. What's done is done. I keep hearing people obsessing over Montero like it's going to change anything. The trade was good when it happened, it was needed, and that is that. There was a log jam in the Yankee lineup and he was turned into what the Yankees needed. Good, young, cheap pitching. The circumstances are unfortunate but time will pass, he will be back and Pineda will be awesome. What is it going to take to put this to bed? Does everyone just want to punch Cash in the groin? Would it help and fix the problem?

    All day on the radio today. Surprisingly enough Fransesca agrees with me. So do many sports news guys. We need to move on, wait it out and then reap the benefits when they are ready.
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  11. #111
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    He's gone. What's done is done. I keep hearing people obsessing over Montero like it's going to change anything. The trade was good when it happened, it was needed, and that is that. There was a log jam in the Yankee lineup and he was turned into what the Yankees needed. Good, young, cheap pitching. The circumstances are unfortunate but time will pass, he will be back and Pineda will be awesome. What is it going to take to put this to bed? Does everyone just want to punch Cash in the groin? Would it help and fix the problem?

    All day on the radio today. Surprisingly enough Fransesca agrees with me. So do many sports news guys. We need to move on, wait it out and then reap the benefits when they are ready.
    No, it was always a head scratcher and citing Francesa is not the best way to make your case.
    DFA ARod.

  12. #112

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    No, it was always a head scratcher and citing Francesa is not the best way to make your case.
    No, it wasn't as the trade was well thought of except for those that had a deep attachment to Montero.

  13. #113
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    No, it was always a head scratcher and citing Francesa is not the best way to make your case.
    It was not a head scratcher at all. The staff was hurting. A young, good, cheap arm is a commodity that doesn't come around often. Did we need another DH or an addition to the staff? The trade made sense. What is happening now was not something that could have been predicted. As for the argument about why Seattle would let him go, Montero + Felix is putting people in the seats.

    I only cited Fransesca because people keep calling him to complain like they want Cahsman strung up by his balls for this. And he's keeping a level head and sees the situation as what it is. Unfortunate. He is right. The right move was made to suit our needs with something that we had an abundance of. I'm not sure what they could have done differently with Montero. He'd be sitting on the bench for us right now while Girardi tried to make room for him. Without everyday at bats how well do you think he would adjust? He wasn't going to catch. You can't just toss him out at 1st. Where does he go? He'd be a platoon DH. Meh. Of course Pineda should be starting every fifth day but that is the unfortunate part. It has nothing to do with poor judgment or a bad trade. Everyone is tradeable for the right deal. This was the right deal. If Pineda did not get hurt I suspect no one would be complaining.
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  14. #114
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    He's one of the most, but not necessaily the most. Robinson Cano (while not nearly as hyped) was every bit as good. You could put Alfonso Soriano (though not a pure product of the Yankees' farm system) into the conversation as well.
    Cano wasn't even the top hitting prospect before his rookie year. Dioner Navarro was the kid everyone loved. Cano has hit far better at the major league level than he did in the minors and was never a sure thing until he established himself. Soriano in hindsight turned out to be a 25 year old rookie, a full 3 years older than Montero at the stage of their respective careers.

  15. #115
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    I thought it was "Bye-Bye Balboni", no?
    And Bam Bam Muelins.

    Absolutely correct. I had a memory freeze

    Andy
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  16. #116
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnybaseball72 View Post
    None of these payers were considered "can't miss" except maybe Nick Johnson and Austin Jackson who almost won ROY. Balboni was 28 when he came up from the minors! A better example would have been Ruben Rivera.

    Montero would have caught with the Yankees. He's catching with Seattle so I can't see why he wouldn't catch/DH. Montero is the most talented hitter to come out of the Yankees system since Jeter and this trade is going to hurt for a long time if Pineda doesn't pan out.

    That's not the way I remember it. Muelens, Babboni, Maas, Gerald Williams, Nick Johnson, Thames and Jiminez all were extremely highly regarded and thought of as can't miss.

    Anyway my point is that Montero isn't proven yet and he didn't have a position with us as DH. Pineda was a sure fire #2 or #3 started. The trade was a no brainer. No one wanted to lose Montero, bu to get Pineda, it was worth it. Enough, lets move on

    Andy
    Yogi is a National Treasure. Let's put him in a National Hall of Fame. The man has no peers.

  17. #117

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnybaseball72 View Post
    Cano wasn't even the top hitting prospect before his rookie year. Dioner Navarro was the kid everyone loved. Cano has hit far better at the major league level than he did in the minors and was never a sure thing until he established himself. Soriano in hindsight turned out to be a 25 year old rookie, a full 3 years older than Montero at the stage of their respective careers.
    Right, so your point seems to be that Montero is the most hyped prospect we've had since at least Dioner Navarro, and maybe all the way back to Jeter. So what?

    Montero may or may not end up living up to the hype. I'm certainly not rooting against him. That hype enabled Cashman to make a trade for what looked like a major upgrade to our rotation. It didn't work out, at least in the short term. We'll all have to be patient.

    Not much more can be said at this point.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  18. #118

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    Not much more can be said at this point.
    If only this were true.
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  19. #119

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    That's not the way I remember it. Muelens, Babboni, Maas, Gerald Williams, Nick Johnson, Thames and Jiminez all were extremely highly regarded and thought of as can't miss.

    Anyway my point is that Montero isn't proven yet and he didn't have a position with us as DH. Pineda was a sure fire #2 or #3 started. The trade was a no brainer. No one wanted to lose Montero, bu to get Pineda, it was worth it. Enough, lets move on

    Andy
    Thames was a highly-regarded prospect (though not an elite one), and I wouldn't say that he "missed." He was never on Baseball America's Top 100 prospects, and he's played ten seasons with a 105 OPS+.

    Ice Williams was regarded as a great athlete, but he was never a top hitting prospect. He made BA's top 100 list once, in 1993 at #52. Given that he played 14 years in the majors, I'd have a hard time calling him a bust.

    Nick Johnson may be one of the least durable players of all-time, but he was a very good hitter (career 122 OPS+) when healthy. He was a disappointment, but only because of his comical injury history.

    D'Angelo Jiminez was a top-ten Yankee prospect, but I don't think he was ever much higher than that. He never made BA's top 100. Certainly not a "can't-miss" prospect.

    Maas, Balboni, and Bam Bam Meulens all suffered from the same problem: poor contact rates. When people strike out a lot, they become much easier to exploit, if they don't make adjustments. Montero had excellent contact rates, making him a much safer bet. Balboni and Maas didn't see a lick of major league time until their mid-to-late 20's, so it's clear that they weren't that highly regarded. They just made a lot of noise because they hit long home runs (while getting on-base an a startlingly low rate).

    Montero was twice rated in BA's top-five prospects (and barely missed making it a third straight year this year). The only player you mentioned to even be close was Nick Johnson, who was a top-ten prospect twice, and who only failed to reach his potential because he could never stay healthy.
    Last edited by RenoHightower; 05-01-12 at 11:42 AM. Reason: redundancy

  20. #120

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    No, it was always a head scratcher and citing Francesa is not the best way to make your case.
    There are great arguments to be made on both side of the trade debate. I was definitely for the trade, but I wouldn't have considered it a head scratcher if the Yankees had balked.

    The Kontos trade was honestly more of a head scratcher to me, although it obviously has much less significance.


  21. #121
    The forgotten hero hellonewman's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    At least he got Dave Pasqua right.
    Ha ha I see what you did there. That list was unintentional comedy gold.
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  22. #122
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    If only this were true.
    I literally am sitting here laughing out loud.

  23. #123
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Thames was a highly-regarded prospect (though not an elite one), and I wouldn't say that he "missed." He was never on Baseball America's Top 100 prospects, and he's played ten seasons with a 105 OPS+.

    Ice Williams was regarded as a great athlete, but he was never a top hitting prospect. He made BA's top 100 list once, in 1993 at #52. Given that he played 14 years in the majors, I'd have a hard time calling him a bust.

    Nick Johnson may be one of the least durable players of all-time, but he was a very good hitter (career 122 OPS+) when healthy. He was a disappointment, but only because of his comical injury history.

    D'Angelo Jiminez was a top-ten Yankee prospect, but I don't think he was ever much higher than that. He never made BA's top 100. Certainly not a "can't-miss" prospect.

    Maas, Balboni, and Bam Bam Meulens all suffered from the same problem: poor contact rates. When people strike out a lot, they become much easier to exploit, if they don't make adjustments. Montero had excellent contact rates, making him a much safer bet. Balboni and Maas didn't see a lick of major league time until their mid-to-late 20's, so it's clear that they weren't that highly regarded. They just made a lot of noise because they hit long home runs (while getting on-base an a startlingly low rate).

    Montero was twice rated in BA's top-five prospects (and barely missed making it a third straight year this year). The only player you mentioned to even be close was Nick Johnson, who was a top-ten prospect twice, and who only failed to reach his potential because he could never stay healthy.
    Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you for being the voice of reason. I really can't believe someone is even comparing Montero to the likes of Balboni and Maas.

    We traded away Jeter II. Montero is now the #1 catcher in Seattle now that Olivo is hurt. There is no reason to believe he wouldn't be spliting time with Martin just like Posada did with Girardi in 97.

    This trade isn't bad. It's a disaster. It's the type of mistake that the Royals or Pirates make. We can just throw money at our mistakes.

  24. #124
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    Wink Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    He was the SINGLE position player that was major league ready. This freaking organization has such crap depth that with a few injuries Nunez is in the OF and Girardi is talking about Ivanez catching.


  25. #125
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Okay, in order to appease everyone who thinks this injury is Cashman's fault I say we stone him on the OYS site. That should make you all feel better. It's obviously the most productive way of moving on.
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