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  1. #151

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    It was expected that A-Rod would DH a lot. Are you going to ignore that? The hitting value Montero was likely to provide over our other DH options wasn't ever going to be that great - at least not in the first few years. And I don't know what you expected Montero to hit like out of the gate, but what he's doing now is only a bit under what I expected. He'll get better, but I don't see him hitting to All-Star levels this first year (though I have no doubt we'll see flashes). If we were DH'ing Montero now, he'd actually be hurting the team because we've gotten pretty good production out of that spot.



    Are you sure? This actually does seem revisionist. They turned down a half season of Lee for Montero and Nunez. You actually think that was a better deal? Please. And Lee was just as much an injury risk as Pineda - abdominal/oblique injuries tend to crop up again, and we're seeing that right now with him.



    Yes, Brett Gardner would be considered a de facto part time LF if we had another All-Star-caliber player competing with him for playing time at that position. I mean, right now he's a part-time CFer because we have Granderson.

    A-Rod, Jeter, Tex would all be vying for DH starts with Montero. Unless he absolutely lit the world on fire, he would be a part-time DH on this team, at least for a few years.



    Pineda was an elite pitcher. Don't confuse injury risks with performance issues. The stuff and makeup can't really be doubted. Do you consider Strasburg a lottery ticket?



    And yet TJS was the surgery that you mentioned being so worried about a few posts above.
    Pineda is way more similar to Joba than Strasburg. In fact Hughes is a better comp than Strasburg. I consider them lottery tickets, Strasburg is more like going back in time and investing in IBM.

    don't confuse elite talent with elite results. 80 pitchers threw more innings than Pineda, 53 pitchers had a lower era. Nothing can be said about Pineda that wasn't said about Joba. The Yankees of all teams should have known the difference between Pineda and an established elite pitcher. He didn't even have a third pitch.

    Again, why in the world would you ever DH Mark Tiexiera? There is ZERO reason to. Nobody on this team would be "competing" for DH ABs.

    I'm not saying the yankees would have been better off with Lee. I'm saying Lee was Montero's value, and Lee was way more valuable than Pineda.

  2. #152
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    You can't say Lee was Montero's value based on the small sample size in the majors he showed. And I have to disagree that Pineda is Joba-like talent. I'm sorry. Maybe when Joba first came up but he was tinkered with and messed up and we have what we have. Pineda is way more valuable than Joba ever was.
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  3. #153

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Montero getting knifed in the clubhouse by a jealous Miguel Olivo is possible.
    That would be the only time in the history of american pro sports that somebody was stabbed to death in a nightclub by a teammate. A significantly higher number of stud young pitchers have flamed out.

  4. #154

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    You can't say Lee was Montero's value based on the small sample size in the majors he showed. And I have to disagree that Pineda is Joba-like talent. I'm sorry. Maybe when Joba first came up but he was tinkered with and messed up and we have what we have. Pineda is way more valuable than Joba ever was.
    You tell me the difference between 2008 Joba and 2011 Pineda. The only difference I can think of is that Joba was a bit older and actually had a third go to pitch.

  5. #155
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Pineda was sidelined with an injury. Joba got ruined because of bugs.

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  6. #156

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Pineda was sidelined with an injury. Joba got ruined because of bugs.

    Haha, I listed those years for a reason. 08 vs 11 is the comparison that I'm interested in.

  7. #157
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Seriously... the Yankees had no faith in Joba. He'd go 5 strong and then give up a baserunner in the 6th and was taken out. Never allowed to get out of jams or even one guy on base. For what reason I don't know. I wish they had let him do it. That kind of lack of faith annoyed me. Pineda on the other hand will probably be let loose. We will see, I don't know the future but he's a guy that can go deep into games and work out of trouble.

    I'm looking at his game log from 2011 now. I see a lot of 7 and 8 inning games. Joba shows nothing but 5 and 6 inning games.
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  8. #158
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Lee was obviously not coming here, he proved that by turning down a monster deal. Montero would have been wasted on a trade for Lee unless a guaranteed contract came after. Which would have been pricey and the Yanks are trimming. I for one agree with the better option being the young, cheap pitcher who has tremendous upside. In a couple of years we should have a significantly dominant rotation if things pan out as they should. This is a good road to take. In my opinion anyway.
    People act like Pineda is dead. He's out for the year. We'll see him again.
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  9. #159

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Nobody is acting like Pineda is dead. Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?

  10. #160
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    Nobody is acting like Pineda is dead. Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?
    Pronouncing the trade a bust? Completely overreacting after a month? Reasoned opinions mix with this forum like oil mixes with water.

    NYYFans did the same thing with Ajax/Granderson, and there's no doubt we got a better player in that deal. But the hand wringing was epic.
    Attention Steinbrenner and front-office morons! Your triumphs mean nothing. You all stink. You can sit on it, and rotate! This is George Costanza. I fear no reprisal. Extension 5-1-7-0.

  11. #161
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    Nobody is acting like Pineda is dead. Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?
    I don't think they mean as in dead but rather declaring the trade a bust Pineda won't ever be the same. Yes it's possible he won't be but it's also possible he will. Right now, he is a question mark. Now if I knew he would need labrum surgery there is no way in hell I do the trade given the impossible advantage of hindsight but the trade is what it is and we have to hope that one, Pineda does recover and Campos is the prospect he appears to be.
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  12. #162
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Axon View Post
    Pronouncing the trade a bust? Completely overreacting after a month? Reasoned opinions mix with this forum like oil mixes with water.

    NYYFans did the same thing with Ajax/Granderson, and there's no doubt we got a better player in that deal. But the hand wringing was epic.

    This is very true...but for all those who said you never trade a everyday middle of the lineup bat for a young hard throwing pitcher....now get to sit back and say, "Ha I told you so" for the next year (not saying I am one of those.)


    So for the next year you'll just have to accept it and deal with it until Pineda comes back and (hopefully ) proves that we made the right deal.
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  13. #163

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Axon View Post
    Bottom line, if you insert Montero's stats and talent into a player named "Douchebag McGee," no one cries about this trade.
    That'd be quite a baseball card though.

  14. #164

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    Pineda is way more similar to Joba than Strasburg. In fact Hughes is a better comp than Strasburg. I consider them lottery tickets, Strasburg is more like going back in time and investing in IBM.
    I would have traded Montero for 2008 Joba and Campos in a hearbeat as well.

    don't confuse elite talent with elite results. 80 pitchers threw more innings than Pineda, 53 pitchers had a lower era. Nothing can be said about Pineda that wasn't said about Joba. The Yankees of all teams should have known the difference between Pineda and an established elite pitcher. He didn't even have a third pitch.
    Now this is silly. Pineda was on an innings limit. (How many home runs did Montero hit last year in the majors?) Pineda was in the top 25 SPs in xFIP, and within that group only 5 had a higher K/9. He also walked fewer than 3 batters per nine innings. If you're touting ERA and IP as either performance or talent indicators, I don't know what to tell you. SnatchCatch has already shown how truly impressive Pineda's 2011 campaign was.

    Again, why in the world would you ever DH Mark Tiexiera? There is ZERO reason to. Nobody on this team would be "competing" for DH ABs.
    Because he is a better offensive player than Montero right now. Plus, the fact that he (or A-Rod or Jeter) could DH cuts into Montero's value as a DH, even if Montero outperformed those guys. The probable downgrade from Montero (assuming he mashes) to Tex/A-Rod/Jeter is likely smaller than from Pineda to his replacement.

    I'm not saying the yankees would have been better off with Lee. I'm saying Lee was Montero's value, and Lee was way more valuable than Pineda.
    If .5 seasons of Lee (coupled with his salary for that half-season) was Montero's value, we made away like bandits acquiring the cost-controlled and talented Campos and Pineda for (essentially) Montero.

    I won't belabor the point. I think the trade was a wonderful move for the Yankees. I understand the concerns about injuries, but I don't think a labrum tear was really predictable. It's like someone who constantly warns a friend to stop smoking cigarettes saying "I told you so" when the smoker gets skin cancer.

    I will say that I don't share in the unbridled optimism of some posters here regarding Pineda's recovery. It's a serious injury and I'm only cautiously hopeful that he can make a comeback.

    Also, I was picturing Montero getting knifed in the Safeco clubhouse, not a night club. Not sure which image is funnier.


  15. #165
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    Nobody is acting like Pineda is dead. Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?
    Dead no, but big mistake, many people think yes. It sucks now but I think in the end we will all be happy Pineda is a Yankee.
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  16. #166

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Dead no, but big mistake, many people think yes. It sucks now but I think in the end we will all be happy Pineda is a Yankee.
    A lot of people didn't like it before this happened. I see a lot more rational posts then not on this topic yet some of you are assuming it is all hindsight reactions & freaking out.

  17. #167

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    I would have traded Montero for 2008 Joba(+campos)
    i would not have. montero appreciates in value if he hits a lot. he can do that in YS. you are better off holding onto him for a bit longer. by then the decisions make themselves.
    always reasonable

  18. #168

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    Now this is silly. Pineda was on an innings limit. (How many home runs did Montero hit last year in the majors?) Pineda was in the top 25 SPs in xFIP, and within that group only 5 had a higher K/9. He also walked fewer than 3 batters per nine innings. If you're touting ERA and IP as either performance or talent indicators, I don't know what to tell you. SnatchCatch has already shown how truly impressive Pineda's 2011 campaign was.
    I guess I just have higher stadards for the word eliete than some. Pitchers on inning limits, with the sole exception of Strasburg, simply can't be eliete to me.


    Because he is a better offensive player than Montero right now.
    Right now? Based on what? Even if he is, Tiexiera has had terrible LH splits the past two seasons. Why wouldn't you simply give him the night off against tough RHP??

    Also, I was picturing Montero getting knifed in the Safeco clubhouse, not a night club. Not sure which image is funnier.
    That would depend on what song is playing at the night club haha.

  19. #169

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    If .5 seasons of Lee (coupled with his salary for that half-season) was Montero's value, we made away like bandits acquiring the cost-controlled and talented Campos and Pineda for (essentially) Montero.
    it was not.
    the deal there was directly related to increased chance of winning WS(s) assuming lee would be extended following a ws win, or at least great success.

    then some retards had to go dump beer on his wife. ffs.
    always reasonable

  20. #170
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    i would not have. montero appreciates in value if he hits a lot. he can do that in YS. you are better off holding onto him for a bit longer. by then the decisions make themselves.
    I would have done that hypothetical deal in a heartbeat. '08 Joba before Texas? No question.

  21. #171
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    A lot of people didn't like it before this happened. I see a lot more rational posts then not on this topic yet some of you are assuming it is all hindsight reactions & freaking out.
    I haven't assumed anything. I have just continued to back Cashman in my argument. Maybe others are coming across that way, I don't see it, but it's not how I intended to present my argument. I am still happy with the move. I have discussed the arguments against my thinking, but I don't believe at all that I have said anyone was being ridiculous.
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  22. #172

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    im pretty scared of young pitching. wouldn't have done it for joba.
    always reasonable

  23. #173
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    A lot of people didn't like it before this happened. I see a lot more rational posts then not on this topic yet some of you are assuming it is all hindsight reactions & freaking out.
    Well there are people on both sides going to extreme positions from calling the trade "a disaster that will haunt the Yankees for years" as one poster in the other Pineda thread to I'm still glad the trade was made. Who knows what he will turn out to be. No one knows. I fully understand the position some have that didn't like the trade from the start. Even though I was in favor, I hated trading away Montero.
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  24. #174
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    it was not.
    the deal there was directly related to increased chance of winning WS(s) assuming lee would be extended following a ws win, or at least great success.

    then some retards had to go dump beer on his wife. ffs.
    Unless the Yankees got a 72 hour window to sign him long term, no way would I do a trade for a pitcher for half a season. It's possible he may have stayed IF we won the Series, but he seemed to prefer to pitch for Philadelphia. Even so without that guarantee of a signed extension being a condition of the trade, no way I would do it.
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  25. #175

    Re: Michael Pineda Out for @012 With Labrum Tear

    F*** Cliff Lee.
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