Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

[Jersey Yankee]

This is a series of four (4) articles. Please click on each person's picture and quote on the left, and you'll see each individual article, from the NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...s-have-changed

[Jersey Yankee]

I think you need to read up on the current state of civil rights in Cuba

I have no idea how a dictator can be compared to a mass killer. Castro is the former, and Hitler was the latter.

I've even heard on this forum that there were worse mass killer than Hitler, such as Cambodia's Pol Pot.

In either case, please enlighten us on Castro's current regime, and why so-called praising him is such a bad idea.

[Jersey Yankee]

I'm not quite getting this thread.

What would be the ramifications if Joe Girardi said that the people of Chicago are generally polite, intelligent and trustworthy, while the people of New York City are generally rude, ignorant and busting with criminals from the slums to city hall? He has a right to that opinion, and some would probably agree. Think he'd take some heat anyway from the fans and organization?

I don't quite get the similarities. People from New York are often referred to as being pushy, rude, dog-eat-dog. I mean it's almost acknowledged by many. It's a highly competitive city and area, so the small-town kindness often goes by the wayside.

If Girardi only said that about one type of ethnic people (as opposed to a geographic group, per your example), or made comments specific to one ethnic group, and he was working in an area largely populated by that group, especially when he was specifically hired to appeal to said group, then I think that a case could be made. I believe that it's the ethnic critique, moreso than the geographic critique, that has irked those in Miami, and south Florida as a whole.

Had Girardi gone to Harlem and praised someone who was a KKK leader (say, David Duke), or gone to Borough Park in Brooklyn (the most solidly ultra-Orthodox Jewish nabe in all of NYC) and praised Hitler, then you can bet that he'd be out on his arse faster than you can say "You're fired".

[False1]

A lot of people would be ticked off, but I don't think dissing New Yorkers would get anywhere near the backlash as praising Fidel Castro.

OTOH, IF Girardi (or anyone else for that matter) praised Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, Saddam Hussein, etc., and/or made anti-American comments related to 9/11, you can bet your last dollar most of NYC would be screaming for his head.

This is probably the most relevant and pertinent analogy offered up yet. You know New York and America in general would be calling for Girardi's head if he were to say he "respected" Bin Laden for surviving all those years. He'd be free to say it, but he'd pay a major PR penalty and his employers would have something to say about that.

[JL25and3]

The closest real-life analogy I can think of is when Carlos Delgado refused to stand for "God Bless America" because he felt it was identified specifically with the war in Iraq, which he did not support. But Delgado was an intelligent, thoughtful man who didn't run his mouth saying stupid things - he just didn't stand up, and when he was asked why he said so in a reasonable and dignified way. He got booed at Yankee Stadium, but that was about the only consequence.

[sweet_lou_14]

The closest real-life analogy I can think of is when Carlos Delgado refused to stand for "God Bless America" because he felt it was identified specifically with the war in Iraq, which he did not support. But Delgado was an intelligent, thoughtful man who didn't run his mouth saying stupid things - he just didn't stand up, and when he was asked why he said so in a reasonable and dignified way. He got booed at Yankee Stadium, but that was about the only consequence.

And he played for a Canadian team at the time, right?

[GordonGecko]

I think you need to read up on the current state of civil rights in Cuba

I know about Cuba's "Civil Rights", there's not much freedom of speech for speaking out against the government or acts of disobedience. Those are punished often severely. But those laws are applied uniformly, you won't get picked out for being of a certain race or ethnicity. If you just tow the line and support the Castro regime, your life (one probably of poverty) is not in jeopardy

[hellonewman]

You people think freedom of speech is only in regards to the government, but isn't it just as bad to have corporations censor what you can and cannot say?

Working for Disney or GM or the New York Times is not a constitutional right. If you say something that damages them financially you can expect to be suspended or have to find employment elsewhere. You won't be imprisoned or executed; you'll just lose your job. No, the Founding Fathers were not concerned with guaranteeing the individual employment.

Words have ramifications, even if they are protected. I don't recall an amendment that says I can say whatever I want and my employer has to deal with the fall out.

There you go.

A lot of people would be ticked off, but I don't think dissing New Yorkers would get anywhere near the backlash as praising Fidel Castro.

John Rocker found out otherwise (although to be fair, his diatribe included attacks on social subgroups that can be found anywhere).

But that doesn't mean that Guillen gives up all his rights to free speech. If the Marlins suspended him because he said he was going to vote for Obama (or Romney), he could sue their asses and win.

True, but if he said he's voting for Romney because he thinks Obama's a foreign-born Muslim terrorist who wants to remake America as a socialist state, I've got to think the Marlins have some recourse.

(As an aside to all this, remember that Guillen is a manager and thus is not covered by collective bargaining. I don't know to what degree that may enter into this. I'm pretty sure Ryan Church wasn't punished for his anti-Semitic comments a few years back but I've got to think a manager who made those comments would be in some pretty hot water.)

[ieddyi]

I know about Cuba's "Civil Rights", there's not much freedom of speech for speaking out against the government or acts of disobedience. Those are punished often severely. But those laws are applied uniformly, you won't get picked out for being of a certain race or ethnicity. If you just tow the line and support the Castro regime, your life (one probably of poverty) is not in jeopardy

Not sure the point you're making here

How much ethnic diversity is there in Cuba?

My understanding is that being gay leads to persecution

Are you saying that it's OK if basic human rights aren't observed because he treats everyone equally poorly?

[sweet_lou_14]

True, but if he said he's voting for Romney because he thinks Obama's a foreign-born Muslim terrorist who wants to remake America as a socialist state, I've got to think the Marlins have some recourse.

Yeah, their recourse would probably be to sell a whole bunch of tickets to the tinfoil-hat crowd and get their games broadcast on a certain "fair and balanced" news network. #dontshootme

[Hitman23]

Words have ramifications, even if they are protected. I don't recall an amendment that says I can say whatever I want and my employer has to deal with the fall out.

Just to chime back in on the subject, I've already made my argument on how I feel but I wanted to respond to this. I agree with this 100%. I have no issue with how the Marlins handle the situation as they are well within their rights to handle it however thy want. But you can't argue how much you value freedom at the same time you're bashing someone for speaking their mind. The fact that a senator got involved in this at all is just baffling. I would imagine a politician has much more important issues to tend to than worry about what Ozzie Guillen thinks about Fidel Castro.

[sweet_lou_14]

Just to chime back in on the subject, I've already made my argument on how I feel but I wanted to respond to this. I agree with this 100%. I have no issue with how the Marlins handle the situation as they are well within their rights to handle it however thy want. But you can't argue how much you value freedom at the same time you're bashing someone for speaking their mind. The fact that a senator got involved in this at all is just baffling. I would imagine a politician has much more important issues to tend to than worry about what Ozzie Guillen thinks about Fidel Castro.

This is a slightly different argument, and a very interesting one. I think it's a perfectly reasonable position to say that people who abhor the oppression of Castro should be happy to live in a country where people can speak their mind, and should lighten up about Ozzie.

However, it shouldn't be surprising that a local politician would take advantage of this situation play to his/her constituents' emotions. All part of the game, unfortunately.

[hellonewman]

The fact that a senator got involved in this at all is just baffling. I would imagine a politician has much more important issues to tend to than worry about what Ozzie Guillen thinks about Fidel Castro.

I'd be baffled if the senator didn't get involved. Perfect pandering opportunity. To most pols the most important issue is getting re-elected and right now this pol's constituents are very pissed at Ozzie.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable position to say that people who abhor the oppression of Castro should be happy to live in a country where people can speak their mind, and should lighten up about Ozzie.

They should, but as I mentioned before, many of them (or their ancestors anyway) were content under Batista and fled Cuba simply because the shift in power meant a shift away from their interests. It wasn't so much a hatred of tyranny as a hatred of a less-friendly tyrant.

[GordonGecko]

Not sure the point you're making here

How much ethnic diversity is there in Cuba?

My understanding is that being gay leads to persecution

Are you saying that it's OK if basic human rights aren't observed because he treats everyone equally poorly?

The point I'm making is Castro is no Hitler. Officially under the Castro regime, discrimination against homosexuals is prohibited. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen at the rank and file level, but they've actually been trying to legalize same sex marriage.

Castro is actually well intentioned in terms of seeking to improve the lives of his people, even if his choice of political systems is suspect, and he uses undoubtedly uses indefensible methods to stay in power and maintain the communist state. I believe in capitalism, and prefer to live my life under that system. But at the same time I recognize that the average person, in Cuba specifically, would probably have had a better living standard under Castro's communist system than free markets had there not been the US trade sanctions. Just look at all the poor countries in Latin America, at least in Cuba crime is controlled and everyone has access to a minimum level of health care.

[Yankeesfan924]

Castro is more than just a communist

I know that. I've lived in South Florida for most of my life, and have a Cuban friend whose family was affected greatly by Castro's regime. What I meant is that I don't care about Ozzie's personal opinions about him.

[ieddyi]

The point I'm making is Castro is no Hitler. Officially under the Castro regime, discrimination against homosexuals is prohibited. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen at the rank and file level, but they've actually been trying to legalize same sex marriage.

Castro is actually well intentioned in terms of seeking to improve the lives of his people, even if his choice of political systems is suspect, and he uses undoubtedly uses indefensible methods to stay in power and maintain the communist state. I believe in capitalism, and prefer to live my life under that system. But at the same time I recognize that the average person, in Cuba specifically, would probably have had a better living standard under Castro's communist system than free markets had there not been the US trade sanctions. Just look at all the poor countries in Latin America, at least in Cuba crime is controlled and everyone has access to a minimum level of health care.

Faint praise indeed

You're ignoring the amount of bloodshed that occurred after the revolution w/ tee shirt icon right in the middle of it

[i]"the average person, in Cuba specifically, would probably have had a better living standard under Castro's communist system than free markets had there not been the US trade sanctions. "[i]

Yep, just look @ the rousing success of all the socialistic/communist countries in history. Along with them being among the worst in terms of human rights. The Eurpoean model of democratic socialism had a high living standard till the bills have come due for the unsupportable welfare state

But, yeah Castro was not as bad as Hitler. That leaves a lot of room between that and a rational functioning society

[JL25and3]

1. What do European democratic socialist states have to do with Castro's Cuba?

2. Of course the greatest destructive force to Cuba over the last 50 years has been the US embargo, not Castro.

3. "Not just a Communist?" The only thing that distinguishes Castro from any other tinpot dictator is his proximity to the US. Otherwise, he's nor worse than middle of the pack over those last 40 years.

4. Mods, please close this thread. If I'm not suspended yet, I will be soon.

[ieddyi]

1. What do European democratic socialist states have to do with Castro's Cuba?

2. Of course the greatest destructive force to Cuba over the last 50 years has been the US embargo, not Castro.

3. "Not just a Communist?" The only thing that distinguishes Castro from any other tinpot dictator is his proximity to the US. Otherwise, he's nor worse than middle of the pack over those last 40 years.

4. Mods, please close this thread. If I'm not suspended yet, I will be soon.

" would probably have had a better living standard under Castro's communist system than free markets had there not been the US trade sanctions. "

That's what I was responding to. The socialist model is a proven failure

As it's been implemented, it's also been tied to repression and limiting basic human rights. The one indicator of economic success is the degree of liberty- the greater the liberty, the greater the economic results

I think the embargo was a mistake, but a telling blow to Cuba was the withdrawal of Soviet Union aid after they imploded ( see the pattern here? )

[JL25and3]

" would probably have had a better living standard under Castro's communist system than free markets had there not been the US trade sanctions. "

That's what I was responding to. The socialist model is a proven failure

As it's been implemented, it's also been tied to repression and limiting basic human rights. The one indicator of economic success is the degree of liberty- the greater the liberty, the greater the economic results

I think the embargo was a mistake, but a telling blow to Cuba was the withdrawal of Soviet Union aid after they imploded ( see the pattern here? )

I have plenty to say in response, but unfortunately, I (and others) have said too much already.

[ieddyi]

I have plenty to say in response, but unfortunately, I (and others) have said too much already.

Yeah, I'm surprised the mods let it go this far

[Hitman23]

However, it shouldn't be surprising that a local politician would take advantage of this situation play to his/her constituents' emotions. All part of the game, unfortunately.

I'd be baffled if the senator didn't get involved. Perfect pandering opportunity. To most pols the most important issue is getting re-elected and right now this pol's constituents are very pissed at Ozzie.

Yeah you're probably both right. I mentioned earlier in the thread I thought this was more of a move than anything else, but I still believe it's a waste of time when there are more pressing issues in society. But you're absolutely right. Perfect opportunity to get votes I suppose.