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  1. #101

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by hellonewman View Post
    Many of them were supporters of the repressive and mobbed-up regime that preceded Castro's, so to assume that they left Cuba solely out of deeply held democratic convictions is pretty dubious. One SOB (Castro) pushed out their SOB (Batista) and life in Cuba for them was about to get extremely unpleasant and dangerous. That's all.

    Not entirely, it's pretty common knowledge that the Marlins are trying to connect with the Hispanic community in Miami (the location of the ballpark speaks to this) and it's been pretty widely reported that the hiring of Guillen was not entirely on-the-field-inspired, he was also brought in as part of that Hispanic outreach. And now he has flung the biggest possible turd into that particular punchbowl.

    Because we've been "going down that path" for more than 200 years? Do you really think there has ever been a time in America when one could speak in a way that causes his employer public embarrassment and/or potential revenue loss without facing repercussions in the form of suspension or firing? Just in the little world that is the Yankees, Jake Powell, an outfielder in the 1930s, was suspended 10 games for making racial slurs in a radio interview. Billy Martin, still an excellent manager at the time, got canned in 1978 for bringing up George Steinbrenner's conviction for illegal political contributions. It's been going on as long as the country has. Because the First Amendment protects life and liberty; it does not protect your job. Sorry, it just doesn't.

    Castro's victims have been imprisoned and worse for speaking out. I don't think Ozzie is in any such jeopardy. He publicly offended his employer's target demographic and now he's paying a (small) price for it. If he'd made those comments in New York he'd be fine. But he's not in New York.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by hellonewman View Post
    Many of them were supporters of the repressive and mobbed-up regime that preceded Castro's, so to assume that they left Cuba solely out of deeply held democratic convictions is pretty dubious. One SOB (Castro) pushed out their SOB (Batista) and life in Cuba for them was about to get extremely unpleasant and dangerous. That's all.
    I read Havana Nocturne too.

  3. #103
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    This couldn't have worked out any better. Enjoy Loria, you scum sucking pig

  4. #104
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...llen-cuba-mess
    The Cuban community in Miami went into orbit. Ozzie was dragged out to a ritual of public self-abnegation of which Castro himself would have been proud, and then he got suspended for five games anyway. Inevitably, commissioner Bud Selig felt compelled to chime in, puffing himself up to twice his normal size.

    "Major League Baseball supports today's decision by the Marlins to suspend Ozzie Guillen … Baseball is a social institution with important social responsibilities. All of our 30 clubs play significant roles within their local communities, and I expect those who represent Major League Baseball to act with the kind of respect and sensitivity that the game's many cultures deserve. Mr. Guillen's remarks, which were offensive to an important part of the Miami community and others throughout the world, have no place in our game."

    And, for what? For saying something stupid (Castro is not lovable), something more than marginally self-destructive (dude, know your audience), and something that was absolutely true. People have been trying to kill Castro for 60 years, and most of those people were Americans.
    For going on 60 years now, the foreign policy of my country — and a good bit of its domestic politics as well — has been held hostage by a band of noisy irreconcilables in South Florida. The embargo is a joke to the rest of the world, the Helms-Burton Act a modern farce, ignored by such radical Marxist nations as Canada, Mexico, and Germany. The success of the exile community in Florida is a remarkable story, but, Lord knows, it's not without its darker side. With the inexcusable aid of several U.S. presidents, and according to documents gathered by the National Security Archive at George Washington University, that community has harbored outright terrorists, including the men allegedly behind the 1976 bombing of a Cuban airliner that killed 78 passengers (including the Cuban national fencing team). By way of comparison, many Irish-Americans who conspired to arm the IRA during the Troubles wound up in prison. Here, though, President George H.W. Bush went out of his way to pardon one of the men alleged to have helped arrange the bombing of the airliner. The rules always have been different, because of the investment — covert and otherwise — that the U.S. has made in destabilizing Castro, and the centrality of Florida to just about every presidential election of the past 40 years.

    Operatives from Miami were hip-deep in the Iran-Contra mess. The Cuban community in Miami went mad over the Elian Gonzalez affair, and the outrage over that controversy was central to some of the hooliganism surrounding the recount in Miami-Dade County in the aftermath of the 2000 presidential election. The first generation of émigrés are strong and they are politically active, and nobody ever says no to them, and it's past time for them to get over themselves, a feeling that more than one survey has noted is shared by the grandchildren — and now great-grandchildren — of the original émigrés. This country doesn't owe them or their tender feelings anything anymore.

  5. #105
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    I read Havana Nocturne too.
    I didn't, but OK? ... The fact the Batista regime was racketeer-influenced was out there long before people started writing books about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    All of which would be relevant if the Marlins were the U.S. government, but they're not. They're a private concern located right in the heart of that community and they're not obligated to risk falling on their sword financially in order to show their target audience that it's not the boss of U.S. foreign policy. It's not their fight.

    As to Selig's puffery, I tuned him out long ago ...

  6. #106
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    You people think freedom of speech is only in regards to the government, but isn't it just as bad to have corporations censor what you can and cannot say?

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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    You would think Cuban Americans who fled the repressive Castro regime would support the rights of Guillen to say something they don't agree with.
    I remember reading the Miami Herald website during the whole "Elian" thingy. I'd heard that in Miami, it's their way or the highway, and that only politicians who vote favorably to them are kept in office. Then there's the part about any Cuban who reaches US soil cannot be expelled after one year to the date. Haitians don't get that preferential treatment.

    Let's not forget that around 1980, Fidel Castro opened up the jails and allowed all the inmates to take a banana boat to Florida. When the Cubans decide to discuss that, and not just their all having "escaped" the Communist regime, let me know.

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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    They can disagree with what he said, but to want to oppress him for no other reason than saying what he did goes against everything they left Cuba for.

    Also, what he said has zero affect on how he manages the baseball team. Last I checked, that was what he is paid for. We keep going down this path of "yes he's free to say what he wants but the company is free to fine him for it", and that chips away at all of our freedoms. Why would we want to be slaves to what a company deems is allowable? We're going to end up with nobody ever giving their opinion out of fear of repercussions - and that sounds a lot like Communist Cuba to me.
    If it were any other community, I guess what he said wouldn't have been so bad. However, it's like someone damning a nation of people when being directly involved professionally within that community. Ozzie could've used greater discretion. Even if he "admires" Castro, he could've kept those feelings to himself.

    I don't recommend that he be fired. However, if people refuse to attend games and boycott, then the team has some considering to do as far as whether or not to keep him.
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    You people think freedom of speech is only in regards to the government, but isn't it just as bad to have corporations censor what you can and cannot say?
    So long as you can't trash your boss or your employer on Facebook (as an individual, or as a company, corporation, etc), then we've already been there.
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  10. #110
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    They can disagree with what he said, but to want to oppress him for no other reason than saying what he did goes against everything they left Cuba for.

    Also, what he said has zero affect on how he manages the baseball team. Last I checked, that was what he is paid for. We keep going down this path of "yes he's free to say what he wants but the company is free to fine him for it", and that chips away at all of our freedoms. Why would we want to be slaves to what a company deems is allowable? We're going to end up with nobody ever giving their opinion out of fear of repercussions - and that sounds a lot like Communist Cuba to me.
    This isn't exactly true. Baseball is in the entertainment industry -- it's not like the Marlins are putting out fires or developing lifesaving medical treatments. I'm guessing he's paid 7 figures to manage people playing baseball -- and that level of pay is because people sit in the stands to watch the Marlins, or watch them on TV. If his actions negatively affect attendance or the perception of the team, he's having a negative impact on the team, and you'd expect is bosses to be unhappy about that.
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  11. #111
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    You people think freedom of speech is only in regards to the government, but isn't it just as bad to have corporations censor what you can and cannot say?
    For what it's worth, I don't know how many people are commenting that freedom of speech SHOULD only be in regards to government vs. how many people are commenting that freedom of speech IS only in regards to government. Saying that "freedom of speech" doesn't apply to the suspension/fine of Guillen because freedom of speech only applies to the government and not to the Marlins since they're a private entity is just stating a fact about our current system and our current laws. It's not necessarily saying that should be the case, though it's very possible those people believe that it should be the case as well.

    I think the whole debate of whether all speech/some speech/no speech should be considered when it comes to private entities or non-government situations, along with what kinds of speech should be protected/not protected if you don't say "all" (and I doubt many people if any think that absolutely every kind of speech/expression should be allowed in absolutely every circumstance without consequence) might well be an interesting discussion, as I think there are interesting points and challenges no matter what your answer is, but I think it's one that would be likely to delve into political issues sooner rather than later, and thus wouldn't be allowed.
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  12. #112
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    You people think freedom of speech is only in regards to the government, but isn't it just as bad to have corporations censor what you can and cannot say?
    Well, that's what it means...

    Would you want one of your employees going off about how much he loves Hitler to one of your clients?
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
    Well, that's what it means...

    Would you want one of your employees going off about how much he loves Hitler to one of your clients?
    Especially if his clients were Jewish individuals, or a Jewish organization.

    Go down the wrong street in Brooklyn and ever praise Hitler, I don't think that you could ever outrun an old man, unless you've got a motorcycle that's already warmed up and in gear.
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  14. #114

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
    Well, that's what it means...

    Would you want one of your employees going off about how much he loves Hitler to one of your clients?
    I was recently in a situation where a client said something about Hitler that made me and my colleague, a good friend who happens to be Jewish, give each other a sideways "WTF" look. We were eating in a German / Austrian restaurant the client had recommended because she knew the chef and owner personally. In her attempts to impress us about this guy, she said, "He's not just an amazing cook, he's a collector and historian, too. He owns an autographed copy of Mein Kampf!"

    My friend and I gracefully shrugged it off and changed the subject, but I could tell that he wasn't thrilled and had kinda lost his appetite.

    When you're dealing with a client, you have to show patience with a faux pas like this. However, had one of my employees brought a Jewish client to a German restaurant and bragged about how proud of his Hitler autograph the owner was, I might not have fired them but I certainly would have taken them aside for a talk, at a minimum. And if the client had requested, you can bet that the employee would be removed from their account.

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  15. #115
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Words have ramifications, even if they are protected. I don't recall an amendment that says I can say whatever I want and my employer has to deal with the fall out.

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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    From the Miami Herald:

    Cuban bar group backs out of Marlins event over Guillen flap
    Miami’s Cuban American Bar Association on Wednesday dropped out as a sponsor of Lawyer Appreciation Night at the Marlins ballpark next week.

    The Miami-based legal group said it can’t support the event after Marlins Manager Ozzie Guillen declared he had “respect” for Fidel Castro’s ability to remain alive and in power. The comments sparked a furor throughout Miami’s Cuban-American community, and led to an apology by Guillen and the team suspending him for five games.

    “CABA will not support any organization whose public spokesman expresses sympathy for that regime,’’ the group’s statement read.
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    I was recently in a situation where a client said something about Hitler that made me and my colleague, a good friend who happens to be Jewish, give each other a sideways "WTF" look. We were eating in a German / Austrian restaurant the client had recommended because she knew the chef and owner personally. In her attempts to impress us about this guy, she said, "He's not just an amazing cook, he's a collector and historian, too. He owns an autographed copy of Mein Kampf!"

    My friend and I gracefully shrugged it off and changed the subject, but I could tell that he wasn't thrilled and had kinda lost his appetite.

    When you're dealing with a client, you have to show patience with a faux pas like this. However, had one of my employees brought a Jewish client to a German restaurant and bragged about how proud of his Hitler autograph the owner was, I might not have fired them but I certainly would have taken them aside for a talk, at a minimum. And if the client had requested, you can bet that the employee would be removed from their account.

    Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences in the market, or in the marketplace of ideas.
    You can't compare Hitler to Castro, it's not even close. Castro didn't target Jews, minorities, homosexuals, etc... In fact he didn't target anyone except those that opposed him. If you fell in line during the Cuban revolution you were fine. It was the people who rebelled that got severely mistreated, which qualify for about 100% of the ex-pats in Florida including all the criminals who were let out of jail to become someone else's problem

  18. #118
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Words have ramifications, even if they are protected. I don't recall an amendment that says I can say whatever I want and my employer has to deal with the fall out.
    That's why the term "Employee Guidelines" was invented. These include mode of conduct, appropriateness, as well as modes of dress.
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  19. #119

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    You can't compare Hitler to Castro, it's not even close. Castro didn't target Jews, minorities, homosexuals, etc... In fact he didn't target anyone except those that opposed him. If you fell in line during the Cuban revolution you were fine. It was the people who rebelled that got severely mistreated, which qualify for about 100% of the ex-pats in Florida including all the criminals who were let out of jail to become someone else's problem
    Let's be clear, I'm not comparing Hitler to Castro ... though in a way, that's exactly what you just did above and I'm not sure that's a very strong point you're making. (While Jews were never given the chance, others got along fine in Germany and its conquered neighbors by "falling in line" as well.)

    I'm simply making a point that in a business context, what you say can have consequences and if your employer believes that your perfectly legal words or actions are hurting the business, you will pay a price.
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    Let's be clear, I'm not comparing Hitler to Castro ... though in a way, that's exactly what you just did above and I'm not sure that's a very strong point you're making. (While Jews were never given the chance, others got along fine in Germany and its conquered neighbors by "falling in line" as well.)

    I'm simply making a point that in a business context, what you say can have consequences and if your employer believes that your perfectly legal words or actions are hurting the business, you will pay a price.
    As well that inconsiderate person should pay a price.

    I think that people confuse the 1st Amendment w/the right to say whatever comes out of the side of their mouth. Even if not paying a price, the 1st Amendment also gives another person the right to say STFU.
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  21. #121

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    You can't compare Hitler to Castro, it's not even close. Castro didn't target Jews, minorities, homosexuals, etc... In fact he didn't target anyone except those that opposed him. If you fell in line during the Cuban revolution you were fine. It was the people who rebelled that got severely mistreated, which qualify for about 100% of the ex-pats in Florida including all the criminals who were let out of jail to become someone else's problem
    I think you need to read up on the current state of civil rights in Cuba
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  22. #122
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    I'm not quite getting this thread.

    What would be the ramifications if Joe Girardi said that the people of Chicago are generally polite, intelligent and trustworthy, while the people of New York City are generally rude, ignorant and busting with criminals from the slums to city hall? He has a right to that opinion, and some would probably agree. Think he'd take some heat anyway from the fans and organization?
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  23. #123
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    I'm not quite getting this thread.

    What would be the ramifications if Joe Girardi said that the people of Chicago are generally polite, intelligent and trustworthy, while the people of New York City are generally rude, ignorant and busting with criminals from the slums to city hall? He has a right to that opinion, and some would probably agree. Think he'd take some heat anyway from the fans and organization?
    A lot of people would be ticked off, but I don't think dissing New Yorkers would get anywhere near the backlash as praising Fidel Castro.

    OTOH, IF Girardi (or anyone else for that matter) praised Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, Saddam Hussein, etc., and/or made anti-American comments related to 9/11, you can bet your last dollar most of NYC would be screaming for his head.
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  24. #124
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    I was recently in a situation where a client said something about Hitler that made me and my colleague, a good friend who happens to be Jewish, give each other a sideways "WTF" look. We were eating in a German / Austrian restaurant the client had recommended because she knew the chef and owner personally. In her attempts to impress us about this guy, she said, "He's not just an amazing cook, he's a collector and historian, too. He owns an autographed copy of Mein Kampf!"

    My friend and I gracefully shrugged it off and changed the subject, but I could tell that he wasn't thrilled and had kinda lost his appetite.
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    You people think freedom of speech is only in regards to the government, but isn't it just as bad to have corporations censor what you can and cannot say?
    The First Amendment only applies to the government.

    In private contexts, some types of speech can be punished, but not all. I assume that there's a clause in Guillen's contract concerning any conduct that reflects badly on the Marlins or MLB. Since the Commissioner's office has already backed the Marlins, Guilen is S.O.L. unless he thinks he's got a court case. It's possible that he does, but unlikely.

    But that doesn't mean that Guillen gives up all his rights to free speech. If the Marlins suspended him because he said he was going to vote for Obama (or Romney), he could sue their asses and win.
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