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  1. #26

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I don't know the context, but when I first read the quote I thought it was just a poor attempt at being funny. Kind of like jokes how cockroaches would survive a nuclear holocaust, Castro can't be exterminated. Not funny, and very insensitive, but is he really a Castro supporter?
    That's how I took it, too. I didnt think he was actually saying he liked Castro. I figured he was making a poorly conceived joke similar to the type you mentioned. Obviously, that doesn't make it a smart decision, but I don't think he was voicing real support.

  2. #27
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Oh no I don't. I see them as a joke, honestly. I'm waiting for the ridiculousness to go away and someone from the organization to say "just kidding!"

    Seriously though, I don't think his opinion on someone not too many are fond of should be a reason to fire him. His reputation is not a secret. Everyone knows what kind of person he is. Very outspoken. I'm not saying he should say these things, nor do I agree with them, however that his character. By putting him on your payroll is on you, not him. And I think the Senator who wrote that is being a wee bit too sensitive. In fact I think it's more of a political move than anything.

    By standing behind the "freedom" that the people she is supposedly speaking for, she needs to understand that freedom is not with exception, and Guillen's comments, right or wrong, are allowed to be made.
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  3. #28
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    Mr. David P. Samson

    President
    Miami Marlins
    501 Marlins Way
    Miami, FL 33125

    Dear Mr. Samson,

    As a Cuban-American State Senator and Miami Marlins season ticket holder, I write this letter to you today with great disdain towards the recent statements made by Miami Marlins Manager, Ozzie Guillén. Mr. Guillén’s statements regarding the Cuban communist dictator, Fidel Castro, are not only appalling, but also insulting to the Cuban-American exiled community and all freedom loving people.
    The Miami Marlins have become a symbol of the progress and greatness of this community. Around the country, people see the new Miami Marlins as an extension of the unique Hispanic community in South Florida, predominantly consisting of Cuban-Americans who fled Communist Cuba in the early 1960’s in search of a sanctuary against political persecution. Many families endured much sacrifice to start all over again in a foreign country where they can live in peace, free from tyranny. The vast majority of my constituents are comprised of Cuban exiles, including my parents who fled from Fidel Castro’s communist regime in 1969; having experienced approximately ten years of living under a tyrannical and murderous regime.

    What I also consider disturbing is the fact that the Miami Marlins received tax dollars from this community, including Cuban-American exiles, to fund the construction of the new stadium. As a result, I expect your organization to honor the commitment it has made to this community by taking a strong position against Mr. Guillén. I understand his statements are not reflective of the Miami Marlins organization; however, I feel it is the responsibility of your organization to vigorously condemn these statements and take punitive measures against Mr. Guillén. If the Miami Marlins are to be respected in this community, your organization must stand with the Cuban-American exiled community and execute expedient punitive measures against Mr. Guillén which will rectify the situation.

    Members of the Florida Hispanic Legislative Caucus and I will be expecting an imminent public apology from Mr. Guillén and be looking forward to further actions taken against him for his deplorable comments.

    Sincerely,

    State Senator René García
    Chairman

    http://miamiherald.typepad.com/naked...insulting.html

    So basically he's saying "I love the freedom we have in America, but if someone says something I disagree with then he should lose his job. Freedom of speech only counts towards things I agree with."

    Give me a break.

  4. #29

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Suspended 5 games
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  5. #30

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    So basically he's saying "I love the freedom we have in America, but if someone says something I disagree with then he should lose his job. Freedom of speech only counts towards things I agree with."

    Give me a break.
    Let's remember that freedom of speech protection is meant to keep the government from punishing you for what you say and not protection from lawful consequences assess by private individuals or companies for those spoken words.

    By the way, he was suspended by the Marlins for five games which is their right as his employer and it has nothing to do with freedom of speech protection that many people misinterpreted that you can say anything without any consequences for your actions.

  6. #31
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Yankees1962, I don't believe his comments should be able to be said without consequence and his employer has every right to handle it how they want to. My point was that the Senator's argument was based on her and the people she is speaking for love freedom and was using it as a case for disagreeing with what was said. It's just kind of silly to be that hypocritical is all.

    Ozzie is allowed to make whatever comments he wants, and we all know he will, and The Marlins can react any way they want, and they will. These things are non factors in my entire point. I'm only making a point about this Senator's reaction and how I believe it's more of a move than an actual outrage. I think she saw a shot to gain/keep respect from a community and took it. A little overboard though.
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  7. #32

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Yankees1962, I don't believe his comments should be able to be said without consequence and his employer has every right to handle it how they want to. My point was that the Senator's argument was based on her and the people she is speaking for love freedom and was using it as a case for disagreeing with what was said. It's just kind of silly to be that hypocritical is all.

    Ozzie is allowed to make whatever comments he wants, and we all know he will, and The Marlins can react any way they want, and they will. These things are non factors in my entire point. I'm only making a point about this Senator's reaction and how I believe it's more of a move than an actual outrage. I think she saw a shot to gain respect from a community and took it. A little overboard though.
    When that senator represents people that helped build that new stadium with their tax dollars she can say what she wants as a leader of her constiuency, however, there isn't much she can do officially when it comes to Ozzie's comments. However, she is still a citizen that can help organize boycotts and whatever else to express her freedom of speech against what he said and I see nothing hypocritical about that.

  8. #33
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    I don't disagree with you at all. If it's a move on her part she should take it. I just think playing the "freedom" card is wrong on her part. It's hypocritical.

    edit: maybe playing the freedom card to the extend she played it is just a bit excessive. I don't know, it's just a circle here.
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  9. #34

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I don't disagree with you at all. If it's a move on her part she should take it. I just think playing the "freedom" card is wrong on her part. It's hypocritical.
    There is no such thing as ultimate freedom. Every action has consequences.

  10. #35
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    There is no such thing as ultimate freedom. Every action has consequences.
    Of course. But another thing to think about is none of us here know the context in which he even made those comments. Is he a supporter? Was he being sarcastic? Was he using his respect for ONE detail of a person, even if they are "evil", as something to admire?

    I highly doubt he meant anything close to what is being taken out of this. But I don;t know what he meant and probably never will. Context is key in this situation. And it's lost.
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  11. #36

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    I doubt there was any sarcasm or humor in his remarks and I'm not sure how anybody can interpret it as such.

    Per ESPN:
    It's not the first time that Guillen has praised Castro publicly. In a Men's Journal interview in 2008, Guillen was asked to name the toughest man he knows.

    "Fidel Castro," he said. "He's a bull---- dictator and everybody's against him, and he still survives, has power. Still has a country behind him. Everywhere he goes they roll out the red carpet. I don't admire his philosophy. I admire him."
    As for Chavez (another situation where Guillen was forced to backtrack):

    Guillen, who is from Venezuela but became a United States citizen in 2006, also praised controversial Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez in 2005. He had appeared on the leader's radio show twice and when asked about it, he said: "Not too many people like the president. I do."
    It's quite clear where his leanings are and the Cuban-American fanbase has every right to demand for his dismissal for his moronic, insensitive remarks. Generations of Cuban families have been destroyed by Castro's brutal dictatorship. It's not unlike Joe Girardi heaping praise on Hitler : "I don't condone what he did to Jews, but I have to admire the man, the power he wielded and what he was able accomplish" or Bobby Valentine expressing his admiration for David Duke: "He may want to lynch all blacks, burn down their homes, and extinguish their families , all of which I consider wrong and wouldn't condone, but you have to admire his determination and longevity as Grand Wizard of the KKK."

    No difference and both are fireable offenses. And if those shocking, unthinkable things were said, would anyone blame Jews or African-Americans for boycotting Yankee and Sox games until the team took proper action? Edit: Wasn't Marge Schott banned and later forced out of the game because of her stated admiration for Hitler and the Nazi Party?

    When you've lost family members and friends to such criminal acts you don't want to hear "context."


  12. #37
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by pleasepassthesoup View Post
    That's how I took it, too. I didnt think he was actually saying he liked Castro. I figured he was making a poorly conceived joke similar to the type you mentioned. Obviously, that doesn't make it a smart decision, but I don't think he was voicing real support.
    I don't think he was actually saying he supports Castro either. It was poorly phrased, but I get the point he was trying to make. Castro is a survivor and maybe Guillen feels he is like Fidel in that regard.

    If attendance dwindles, it will probably be due to the Marlins' performance and/or the inherent lack of real interest in MLB in that area. Even if they play well, I'd be surprised if the seats continiue to be nearly filled. The whole package so far is a circus without a tent - the unis, the stadium, the over-the-top Opening Day show and the owner is the ringmaster.
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  13. #38

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Meh..
    my thoughts exactly. this thread kinda sucks.

    the man isn't allowed to have a political opinion?

    Obama/Bush have dropped tons of radioactive depleted uranium on Iraq and Syria; cancer and birth defect rates are at about 40% or some absurd number. All govts are abusive and murderous. Picking on Cuba is silly, IMO.
    like delv, but better

  14. #39
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    I think using the word "admire" is the problem. When you see me with a Dexter signature, do you think I admire serial killers? I am fascinated by certain ones just because of what they accomplished despite being evil human beings. Dexter is modeled after Ted Bundy. I've read books about him. He fascinates me. I don;t admire him at all. I think he is pure evil. But being able to do what he did for as long as he did fascinates me. He was almost a senator himself.

    I think these people that said these things should probably change the word "admire" because it's being taken out of context. However, if they truly admire people like Hitler, Duke, and Castro it's a different story.

    So maybe the context is wrong because the words chosen is wrong. You can't admire evil. But you can be fascinated by those who thrive and become what they become by being as evil as they are. Why are there so many documentaries about Hitler? It's fascination about the subject. Sure it has it's educational value, but the amount of content out there tells a much deeper story. Fascination, in my opinion.

    I hope my point is being made correctly here. I may be setting myself up for a bad debate. I'm not trying to do that though.
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  15. #40

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by SatchelPaigeYankee View Post
    my thoughts exactly. this thread kinda sucks.

    the man isn't allowed to have a political opinion?

    Obama/Bush have dropped tons of radioactive depleted uranium on Iraq and Syria; cancer and birth defect rates are at about 40% or some absurd number. All govts are abusive and murderous. Picking on Cuba is silly, IMO.
    This thread doesn't suck nearly as much as comparing Obama/Bush to Fidel Castro.


  16. #41
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    It's a much more interesting discussion than being worried about Mo or the fact that Johnny Damon is still unaffiliated.
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  17. #42

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Of course. But another thing to think about is none of us here know the context in which he even made those comments. Is he a supporter? Was he being sarcastic? Was he using his respect for ONE detail of a person, even if they are "evil", as something to admire?

    I highly doubt he meant anything close to what is being taken out of this. But I don;t know what he meant and probably never will. Context is key in this situation. And it's lost.
    Like I said, I'm too far from the situation to have an opinion on what his true meaning is so I'm not even going to go there.

  18. #43

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    It's a much more interesting discussion than being worried about Mo or the fact that Johnny Damon is still unaffiliated.
    What, you don't like the hundreds of "witty" and "original" Johnny Damon posts in this forum? I live for them.


  19. #44

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by SatchelPaigeYankee View Post
    my thoughts exactly. this thread kinda sucks.

    the man isn't allowed to have a political opinion?

    Obama/Bush have dropped tons of radioactive depleted uranium on Iraq and Syria; cancer and birth defect rates are at about 40% or some absurd number. All govts are abusive and murderous. Picking on Cuba is silly, IMO.
    Not when you work for a private company entirely dependent on paid attendance, TV/advertising and concessions from the general public to make a profit. Edit: and sharing profits from teams like the Yankees.

  20. #45

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I think using the word "admire" is the problem. When you see me with a Dexter signature, do you think I admire serial killers? I am fascinated by certain ones just because of what they accomplished despite being evil human beings. Dexter is modeled after Ted Bundy. I've read books about him. He fascinates me. I don;t admire him at all. I think he is pure evil. But being able to do what he did for as long as he did fascinates me. He was almost a senator himself.

    I think these people that said these things should probably change the word "admire" because it's being taken out of context. However, if they truly admire people like Hitler, Duke, and Castro it's a different story.

    So maybe the context is wrong because the words chosen is wrong. You can't admire evil. But you can be fascinated by those who thrive and become what they become by being as evil as they are. Why are there so many documentaries about Hitler? It's fascination about the subject. Sure it has it's educational value, but the amount of content out there tells a much deeper story. Fascination, in my opinion.

    I hope my point is being made correctly here. I may be setting myself up for a bad debate. I'm not trying to do that though.
    That's where the problem lies and why I don't think Guillen is the sharpest tool in the shed, in addition to being a fake. When it comes to certain people (Hitler, KKK, Castro), I don't think that the groups affected by their egregious acts want to hear about "context." I hear ya though, and fully understand your position - and agree with it to an extent.

    However, being that he's Latino and that the Cuban community is a large part of the Marlins base, and the stadium sits smack dab in the middle of a Cuban-American neighborhood, he should have been highly sensitive to anything said about Castro, regardless of the context.

    I think he's made it clear where his leanings are regarding Chavez and Castro (he's stated his admiration for both in the past). If I had to take a guess, I believe that Guillen expressed his love for Castro only because he is ignorant and probably thought that Cubans would side with him for praising a fellow Latino.

    The second somebody told him that Miami is the absolute wrong place to heap praise on Castro (regardless of context) he started to sweat and backtrack. Just my opinion.


  21. #46

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    I am from Miami, but i'm not Cuban, so maybe I don't grasp the significance of Ozzie's comments on the Cuban community. But the man made a mistake, english is not his first language so I believe that he had trouble translating it to english from what he was thinking in spanish. The man apologized, 5 games is enough, atleast for me. Plus he met with the Women in White, who if you don't know, is a strong cuban advocacy group and apologized to them personally. I wouldn't go so far as to call him a fake

  22. #47
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    The second somebody told him that Miami is the absolute wrong place to heap praise on Castro (regardless of context) he started to sweat and backtrack. Just my opinion.
    I absolutely agree with you here. I don't think it makes him a fake or a phony though. I think it puts him under some pressure for being the outspoken person he is. He's had it before but not to this level. Being a target of an entire community and a political figure may have made him take a step back and think about what he said. I think that is human nature, I'm pretty outspoken but I have found myself in debates where I come off as an ass. We all have that point when you choose to voice your opinions. His was finally hit.

    Maybe he'll do the right thing. The Marlins reacted. Hopefully everyone can move on and he'll use this situation as a learning experience to think more carefully in the future.
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  23. #48

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I absolutely agree with you here. I don't think it makes him a fake or a phony though. I think it puts him under some pressure for being the outspoken person he is. He's had it before but not to this level. Being a target of an entire community and a political figure may have made him take a step back and think about what he said. I think that is human nature, I'm pretty outspoken but I have found myself in debates where I come off as an ass. We all have that point when you choose to voice your opinions. His was finally hit.

    Maybe he'll do the right thing. The Marlins reacted. Hopefully everyone can move on and he'll use this situation as a learning experience to think more carefully in the future.
    That's an awesome way to look at the entire situation. Well said.


  24. #49

    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernforever51 View Post
    I am from Miami, but i'm not Cuban, so maybe I don't grasp the significance of Ozzie's comments on the Cuban community. But the man made a mistake, english is not his first language so I believe that he had trouble translating it to english from what he was thinking in spanish. The man apologized, 5 games is enough, atleast for me. Plus he met with the Women in White, who if you don't know, is a strong cuban advocacy group and apologized to them personally. I wouldn't go so far as to call him a fake
    I think he's disingenuous in his explanations and back-tracking, hence my calling him a fake. Just my opinion. Then again, none of us are prefect and every one of us has said things that we wish we could take back.

    But, what he said (again, regardless of context) whom it affected, and where he happens to manage was as close to career suicide as you can get. He truly got off easy.


  25. #50
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    Re: Ozzie Guillen: Fake, Fraud, Phony

    I don't really care what Ozzie said. It's not 1950. If he's a communist or supports Castro, that's his prerogative. However, what he said was a) insensitive, and b) incredibly stupid, considering he works for the MIAMI Marlins, whose ballpark is in Little HAVANA.
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