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  1. #1101

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Steve View Post
    Did any of you guys actually SEE Koufax pitch? Believe me when I say that regardless of where the games were played, it was a mismatch with him on the mound. I believe he pitched a shutout in game 7 vs. the Twins in 1965, on two days rest and with no curve to speak of that day. The guy was money and class personified. Pitched in excess of 300 innings in multiple seasons, complete games, and of course all those K's. Overrated???? Don't make me laugh. He was abused which is what shortened his career. In spring training in his early 50's, he was still throwing high 80's in BP. I wasn't a Dodger fan (Yankee forever), but had to admire what he could do to the opposition.
    Well, I remember Koufax, but it's usually those that haven't seen the player in question that devalue that player's accomplishments. Koufax dominated the Yankees lineup like they were a bunch of school girls.
    Fire Cashman, but Hal Steinbrenner is the root of Yankee woes.

  2. #1102
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I wish I'd seen Koufax pitch. I would love to have seen that entire era.
    Seeing Pedro in his prime (live, multiple times) was good enough for me. We'll never see that again. Well, except Sunday night vs Dickey.

  3. #1103
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Ha, just saw your latest post Steve.

  4. #1104
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    Seeing Pedro in his prime (live, multiple times) was good enough for me. We'll never see that again. Well, except Sunday night vs Dickey.
    Whats so amazing to me is he did it during the steroid era and in the AL East. How much more dominant can you be?
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  5. #1105

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Whats so amazing to me is he did it during the steroid era and in the AL East. How much more dominant can you be?
    In the best hitting park in the league, no less. Pedro, from roughly 1997 until he got hurt in 2001, is the best pitcher I've ever seen, and I suspect that most anyone who is still alive has seen.

  6. #1106

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Koufax in his prime was more dominant than Pedro in his, based on what I saw. The lineups Pedro faced may have been deeper. Inter-generational comparisons are never fully meaningful. But Koufax was not hittable when he was on, and I never felt that about Pedro, whatever the statistics show.

  7. #1107

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    Koufax in his prime was more dominant than Pedro in his, based on what I saw. The lineups Pedro faced may have been deeper. Inter-generational comparisons are never fully meaningful. But Koufax was not hittable when he was on, and I never felt that about Pedro, whatever the statistics show.
    Well, as reliable as the human memory is when compared to objective factual records, I'm going to go with Pedro.

    Weirdly, if you take Koufax' best five-year stretch and compare it to Pedro's, they had the exact same WHIP (0.926), H/9 (6.3), and HR/9 (0.6), and almost the exact same BB/9 (Pedro: 2.0, Koufax: 2.1). Pedro struck out a LOT more guys (11.6 to 9.4), and obviously his ERA+ was much better (215 to 167). The fact is that Pedro was just as effective as Koufax despite pitching when the league was at its all-time hitting peak, in the best offensive park in the better hitting league. Koufax pitched in the best era ever for a pitcher, in the best pitching park in the better pitching league.

  8. #1108
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NYYankeesFan92 View Post
    Add Whitey Ford to that list, yeah that's right i said it. Who knows what type of numbers he could've put up if Casey didn't make him skip starts to match him up against the other teams' best pitcher.
    Or if he wasn't always out drinking with Mickey & Billy.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  9. #1109
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    Koufax in his prime was more dominant than Pedro in his, based on what I saw. The lineups Pedro faced may have been deeper. Inter-generational comparisons are never fully meaningful. But Koufax was not hittable when he was on, and I never felt that about Pedro, whatever the statistics show.
    Pedro seemed to toy with hitters at times. The quote I think that best sums it up was when some MLBer was asked to name the 3 best pitches in the game he replied - Pedro's fast ball, Pedro's curve ball and Pedro's change up.

    My favorite Pedro AB was against Manny when he was still with the Indians. Pedro threw him 3 straight looping curve balls each one seemimgly slower than the last and Manny looked like Pedro Serano on each and every one of them.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  10. #1110
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Well, as reliable as the human memory is when compared to objective factual records, I'm going to go with Pedro.

    Weirdly, if you take Koufax' best five-year stretch and compare it to Pedro's, they had the exact same WHIP (0.926), H/9 (6.3), and HR/9 (0.6), and almost the exact same BB/9 (Pedro: 2.0, Koufax: 2.1). Pedro struck out a LOT more guys (11.6 to 9.4), and obviously his ERA+ was much better (215 to 167). The fact is that Pedro was just as effective as Koufax despite pitching when the league was at its all-time hitting peak, in the best offensive park in the better hitting league. Koufax pitched in the best era ever for a pitcher, in the best pitching park in the better pitching league.
    Koufax also threw a LOT more innings.

    How good whould Pedro have been if he had to complete all (most of) his games and do it in a 4 man rotation?
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  11. #1111
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    Koufax dominated the Yankees lineup like they were a bunch of school girls.
    What he did to the Mets was just ridiculous. Yeah, I know they were only the 1962-1966 Mets rather than the Yankees in the World Series, but still:

    20 starts. 17-2, 1.44. 0.864 WHIP. 162 IP, 98 H, 42 BB, 173 K. And that's despite getting pounded the very first time he faced them - 6 runs on 13 hits, though he still pitched a complete-game win.
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  12. #1112

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Koufax also threw a LOT more innings.

    How good whould Pedro have been if he had to complete all (most of) his games and do it in a 4 man rotation?
    He did, but the game changed between the 60s and 90s.

  13. #1113
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    In the best hitting park in the league, no less. Pedro, from roughly 1997 until he got hurt in 2001, is the best pitcher I've ever seen, and I suspect that most anyone who is still alive has seen.
    Agreed. That game he pitched against the Yanks in September 1999 remains the most dominant game I've ever seen pitched against the Yanks in my lifetime. He made one mistake to Chili Davis who took him yard, and he hit a batter...thats it. 9 IP, 1 R, 1 H, 0 BB, 17 K. The Yanks looked like they didnt belong on the same field w/him that night.

    This game, and the Wood 20 K game vs Houston in 98 are the most dominant games I've seen pitched since I've been a fan.

  14. #1114
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    Koufax in his prime was more dominant than Pedro in his, based on what I saw. The lineups Pedro faced may have been deeper. Inter-generational comparisons are never fully meaningful. But Koufax was not hittable when he was on, and I never felt that about Pedro, whatever the statistics show.
    There comes a point when you have to let nostalgia go. There is going to come a point where modern players are going to eclipse the legends of the game. Koufax included, and Pedro did it. Mays and Williams will be eclipsed and dare I say Ruth will be eclipsed. You can't let the legend be more than it is when statistics tell you otherwise.

    And it's already been stated but it could be said again, steroid era, hitters era, AL East, and in Fenway. Koufax was best during a pitchers era in a pitchers ballpark with a dead ball. I don' take away from the talents of the man, he is a legend and should be. But Pedro is better.
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  15. #1115

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Roger Clemens was better than Pedro, Sandy & any other pitcher mentioned in this thread so far.

  16. #1116

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Pedro was a beast. I think Koufax is a better LHP than Pedro

  17. #1117
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NYYankeesFan92 View Post
    Roger Clemens was better than Pedro, Sandy & any other pitcher mentioned in this thread so far.
    He had a longer run of dominance, but Pedro was better at his peak, by a decent margin.

  18. #1118

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    Well, except Sunday night vs Dickey.
    Eff that. Dickey's gonna have "Oh yeah, that what the AL was like" nightmares for weeks.
    Don't tease me, you know what I do for a living.

  19. #1119
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    The three Yankee starters against the Mets have a combined winning percentage of .750 and the three Mets starters against the Yankees have a combined winning percentage of .762. When was the last time the Yankees played a series of three or more games significantly into the season when both of those were .750 or better?

  20. #1120

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Pedro dominated steroid fueled batters for almost a decade, putting up closer type of numbers (compare his 1997-2005 numbers to Mo's 1997-2005 numbers) as a starter.

    Pedro didn't just have good fastball, curveball and changeup; he had a brain. He was a genius at toying with hitters.

  21. #1121

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    Pedro dominated steroid fueled batters for almost a decade, putting up closer type of numbers (compare his 1997-2005 numbers to Mo's 1997-2005 numbers) as a starter.

    Pedro didn't just have good fastball, curveball and changeup; he had a brain. He was a genius at toying with hitters.
    You make great points but Pedro himself may have taken steroids.

  22. #1122

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Only sins we can convict Pedro of is wearing Red Sox, Mets and Phillies uniforms.

    Who else can claim that dubious honor?

  23. #1123
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    Only sins we can convict Pedro of is wearing Red Sox, Mets and Phillies uniforms.

    Who else can claim that dubious honor?
    Not sure, but that is quite the tri-fecta.
    If they ask who was our star, give them 25 names, and if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees.

  24. #1124
    This is our future. JohnnyDamonfan's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    Only sins we can convict Pedro of is wearing Red Sox, Mets and Phillies uniforms.

    Who else can claim that dubious honor?
    Amazing enough! I don't hate the Mets like at all.I mean I don't want them to win or anything when they are facing us. But, if I really had to choose my top 3 most hated teams. The Angels would take the Mets spot in that, I don't know what it is about them. The way they play, the way they always seem to own us at home, just the players in general. I don't know, but I despise the Angels with a passion. Mets I can actually tolerate . Red Sox, Angels, Phillies, I really can't.

    Pedro in his prime was one of the best pitchers in the major leagues. I am not going to say who was best. I have watched Baseball for a lot less time then you guys have. I only started watching in 2000.
    Still and will always be a New England Patriots fan.


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  25. #1125

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyDamonfan View Post
    Amazing enough! I don't hate the Mets like at all.I mean I don't want them to win or anything when they are facing us. But, if I really had to choose my top 3 most hated teams. The Angels would take the Mets spot in that, I don't know what it is about them. The way they play, the way they always seem to own us at home, just the players in general. I don't know, but I despise the Angels with a passion. Mets I can actually tolerate . Red Sox, Angels, Phillies, I really can't.

    Pedro in his prime was one of the best pitchers in the major leagues. I am not going to say who was best. I have watched Baseball for a lot less time then you guys have. I only started watching in 2000.
    Well i'm not a native New Yorker so i guess that's why i don't have as much animosity towards the Mets as a lot of other Yankees fans. Phillies fans are just annoying, they love playing the "Cliff Lee" card.

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