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  1. #1051
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    Stottlemyre was a very good starting pitcher with teams who couldn't hit very much.
    Stottlemyre should definitely be on that staff somewhere. And while Guidry is one of my all-time favorite Yankees (see my sn), he should only be there if Billy Martin is managing. Guidry was phenomenally successful during Billy's stints, but in between he had to recover from Martin's pitcher abuse.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  2. #1052

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Battingly View Post
    A little while ago Francesa listed his All-Yankee team since 1962

    Since I don't go back that far, here's my All-Yankee team since 1976

    LINEUP

    LF Rickey Henderson
    SS Derek Jeter
    1B Don Mattingly
    3B Alex Rodriguez
    DH Reggie Jackson
    2B Robinson Cano
    CF Bernie Williams
    RF Paul O'Neill
    C Thurman Munson

    STARTING STAFF

    Ron Guidry
    David Cone
    CC Sabathia
    Andy Pettitte
    Orlando Hernandez

    CL Mariano Rivera
    RH-SU Goose Gossage
    LH-SU Sparky Lyle
    Really? Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and Berra don't make your team? Hard to take it seriously to be honest. Almost all of those guys are modern day guys who were great, but not as legendary as the Yankees of old.


    C - Berra
    1B - Gehrig
    2B - Cano
    3B - Rodriguez
    SS - Jeter
    LF - Mantle
    CF - DiMaggio
    RF - Winfield
    DH - Ruth

    BN - Henderson
    BN - Jackson
    BN - Munson


    SP - Ford
    SP - Guidry
    SP - Pettitte
    SP - Ruffing
    SP - Mussina

    CL - Rivera
    SU - Gossage
    SU - Wetteland

    Manager - Casey Stengel
    Mariano Rivera was so great he was able to close a Denny's.

  3. #1053

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfallibleOne View Post
    Really? Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and Berra don't make your team? Hard to take it seriously to be honest. Almost all of those guys are modern day guys who were great, but not as legendary as the Yankees of old.


    Your teacher would write in red pen "Re-read and come back to me."
    Don't tease me, you know what I do for a living.

  4. #1054
    Re2pect Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfallibleOne View Post
    Really? Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and Berra don't make your team?
    It was mentioned in the post that it was from 1976 to present.

    But from his list of starters I would replace El Duque with Moose.
    You're a stranger til she whispers you can stay.
    You're a stranger til she whispers that your journey's over.


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  5. #1055

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    It was mentioned in the post that it was from 1976 to present.

    But from his list of starters I would replace El Duque with Moose.
    And this is why I shouldn't visit this site from my blackberry. My bad.
    Mariano Rivera was so great he was able to close a Denny's.

  6. #1056
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Was hoping against hope they won 100 in a row.

  7. #1057
    Re2pect Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfallibleOne View Post
    And this is why I shouldn't visit this site from my blackberry. My bad.
    It happens to us all.
    You're a stranger til she whispers you can stay.
    You're a stranger til she whispers that your journey's over.


    NYYFans Fantasy Baseball:
    CBS: Evil Empire
    Yahoo: Special OPS

  8. #1058
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    It was mentioned in the post that it was from 1976 to present.

    But from his list of starters I would replace El Duque with Moose.
    Moose was better, but Duque was way more fun to watch. Most entertaining Yankee pitcher since the incomparable Luis Tiant.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  9. #1059
    NYYF Triple Crown

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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Moose was better over the long haul, but El Duque was brilliant for several years and was such a post season horse. Can't go wrong with either one. I also agree with an earlier poster about Stottlemyre being included. In his prime, he was one of the best starters in the AL.
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  10. #1060
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Mel retired in 74 which is 2 years before the condition set for 76 - present
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  11. #1061
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Battingly View Post
    A little while ago Francesa listed his All-Yankee team since 1962

    Since I don't go back that far, here's my All-Yankee team since 1976

    LINEUP

    LF Rickey Henderson
    SS Derek Jeter
    1B Don Mattingly
    3B Alex Rodriguez
    DH Reggie Jackson
    2B Robinson Cano
    CF Bernie Williams
    RF Paul O'Neill
    C Thurman Munson

    STARTING STAFF

    Ron Guidry
    David Cone
    CC Sabathia
    Andy Pettitte
    Orlando Hernandez

    CL Mariano Rivera
    RH-SU Goose Gossage
    LH-SU Sparky Lyle
    That's a pretty good team. Better than the all-time Met team for sure. I'd go to war with this squad.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  12. #1062

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    That's a pretty good team. Better than the all-time Met team for sure. I'd go to war with this squad.
    Uh... No David Wells???

  13. #1063
    NYYF Triple Crown

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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Mel retired in 74 which is 2 years before the condition set for 76 - present
    True enough, but I was more referring to Francesa's list.
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  14. #1064

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post

    Moose was better, but Duque was way more fun to watch. Most entertaining Yankee pitcher since the incomparable Luis Tiant.
    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post

    Moose was better over the long haul, but El Duque was brilliant for several years and was such a post season horse.
    ... and he was MONEY in the post season.

    Everyone talks about what a big game pitcher Andy has been, and he is, but what about El Duque, at one point he was 9-1 as a starter in the post season with an ERA in the low 2's

    Unfortunately he came to us as an old rookie, he had the bad luck of being born in a communist country, so his prime did not last very long, and already past his prime, he lost his last two post season starts to take his PS record as a starter to 9-3, but when he was right, when he was EL DUQUE, he was fearless and absolutely brilliant in a big spot, and he saved our bacon more than once, like that unforgettable night in Cleveland when that brilliant 98 season threatened to go up in smoke, and he threw an absolute gem verses a lethal lineup, he mowed them down.

    Others can make a case for Moose or Wells and I'm fine with that, but give me El Duque and lets roll.

  15. #1065

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Joe Gordon was slightly better than Cano.

    Lefty Gomez has to be on any Yankees all time staff. Dude won 2 pitching triple crowns, and was arguably the greatest AL pitcher in the 1930's, only falling behind the great Lefty Grove.

  16. #1066
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Steve View Post
    Uh... No David Wells???
    Wells, Clemens, Mussina, Catfish, Jimmy Key

    There are a number of guys you could fillout the staff with.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  17. #1067
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 1936-1939JoeNLou View Post
    Joe Gordon was slightly better than Cano.
    Kind of a toss up to date but I have a feeling Cano is going to out distance Gordon by a wide margin when all is ssaid and done.

    Lefty Gomez has to be on any Yankees all time staff. Dude won 2 pitching triple crowns, and was arguably the greatest AL pitcher in the 1930's, only falling behind the great Lefty Grove.
    Yeah no way you leave Lefty off the all time Yankee staff.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  18. #1068

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    The anchor of the Yankee staff in the 1930's, Gomez was a brilliant pitcher who featured a blazing fastball and a sweeping curve. In his prime, from 1931-1939, Gomez won 163 games, including 4 20+ win seasons, with a winning percentage of .660. His ERA was 3.17, made more impressive when you consider that the league ERA at the time was 5.00. Furthermore, he won 3 strikeout titles, 2 ERA titles, had the most wins in the league twice, all adding up to two pitching triple crowns. In addition, Gomez led the league in innings pitched once, led 3 times in shutouts, and led in complete games once as well. This while pitching in the greatest offensive era in history, where the average hitter hit .300.

    Lefty was a 7 time all star and for those who love clutch, he was undefeated in the WS with a record of 6-0 2.86 and 4 CG. Talk about your big game pitcher.

    However you cut it, Lefty Gomez is a legend.


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  19. #1069
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 1936-1939JoeNLou View Post
    However you cut it, Lefty Gomez is a legend.
    If you were making a starting staff of the 5 best lefties of all time regardless of team and era, he might make that staff.

    Spahn, Carlton, Johnson, Grove, Hubbell, Ford, Gomez and Koufax are probably the candidates (in decending order of Ws). Though I may be missing someone.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  20. #1070

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    If you were making a starting staff of the 5 best lefties of all time regardless of team and era, he might make that staff.

    Spahn, Carlton, Johnson, Grove, Hubbell, Ford, Gomez and Koufax are probably the candidates (in decending order of Ws). Though I may be missing someone.
    Agreed with that. He may not make the starting five, but definitely deserves to be on the staff. I always felt Lefty Gomez was underrated by the general public, quite the contrast with Sandy Koufax, who is very overrated.

  21. #1071
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 1936-1939JoeNLou View Post
    Agreed with that. He may not make the starting five, but definitely deserves to be on the staff. I always felt Lefty Gomez was underrated by the general public, quite the contrast with Sandy Koufax, who is very overrated.
    Koufax lead the league in ERA each of his final 5 seasons and compiled an ERA under 2 over that stretch with an ERA+ 166. It is one of the greatest 5 year runs of pitching dominance in the history of baseball.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  22. #1072
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Battingly View Post
    ... and he was MONEY in the post season.

    Everyone talks about what a big game pitcher Andy has been, and he is, but what about El Duque, at one point he was 9-1 as a starter in the post season with an ERA in the low 2's

    Unfortunately he came to us as an old rookie, he had the bad luck of being born in a communist country, so his prime did not last very long, and already past his prime, he lost his last two post season starts to take his PS record as a starter to 9-3, but when he was right, when he was EL DUQUE, he was fearless and absolutely brilliant in a big spot, and he saved our bacon more than once, like that unforgettable night in Cleveland when that brilliant 98 season threatened to go up in smoke, and he threw an absolute gem verses a lethal lineup, he mowed them down.

    Others can make a case for Moose or Wells and I'm fine with that, but give me El Duque and lets roll.
    Also, despite Mussina's Gold Gloves, Hernandez was probably the best fielding pitcher I've ever seen. Not the biggest deal, perhaps, but also lots of fun to watch. I can't recall any other pitcher who went after popups as aggressively as Duque did, rather than just standing aside and letting the other infielders chase them.

    Once he caught a grounder smashed right at him, but the ball got caught in the webbing of his glove. Without missing a beat, he knew exactly what to do; cool and relaxed, he just took off his glove and threw it to first base with the ball still in it.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  23. #1073
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Wells, Clemens, Mussina, Catfish, Jimmy Key

    There are a number of guys you could fillout the staff with.
    Jimmy Key came to my mind too -- he at least has to be in the discussion.

    Also, it might be heresy to some, but I'd give strong consideration to Winfield over O'Neill in RF
    "Welcome to NYYFans, the place where Yankees fans come together to complain about the manner in which our team is winning games" -- Mr. Coffee

  24. #1074

    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Koufax lead the league in ERA each of his final 5 seasons and compiled an ERA under 2 over that stretch with an ERA+ 166. It is one of the greatest 5 year runs of pitching dominance in the history of baseball.
    But he did it in a huge ball park in a very pitcher friendly era. The average ERA during that time was in in the 3.50 range. So if you had a 3.60 ERA in 1960's NL, you where a below average pitcher. 1966 Dodger Stadium had a park factor of 92 Batting/ 91 Pitching, 100 being a neutral park for both batting and pitching. So when we take those factors into account, Sandy's ERA's are not that impressive. He had all the advantages. Despite all that, his last 5 years were historic. But it's not the greatest 5 year period of all time, like many would make it seem. In addition, his first 7 years were pretty average, with some years being mediocre. His career ERA+ is just 131, which is not even in the top 25 all time, and not much better than Gomez and his 125 ERA+.

    Is it a coincidence that his ERA dropped from 3.52 to 2.54 after the move from hitter friendly LA coliseum to Dodger Stadium in 1962?

    There is a cool feature on Baseball-reference in which you can, using relative stats, translate players statistics to different eras. Well, if you take Lefty Gomez, and transport him to the 1968 Dodgers, his career would have looked like this:

    196 -108 2.09 ERA 2,791 IP 1,954 H 1,635 SO 1.035 WHIP

    We'd be talking about Gomez in a very different tune. According to the neutralized stats, he'd even have seasons like this :

    21 W/ 1.67 ERA / 269 IP

    26 W/ 1.52 ERA / 308 IP

    27 W/ 1.37 ERA/ 308 IP

    20 W/ 1.93 ERA/ 271 IP

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...01-pitch.shtml

    So while I do rank Koufax higher than Gomez on the all time list, Koufax is overrated in that he is not the greatest pitcher of all time, or in the top 10, or even in the top 20. He was a great pitcher however, and I'm not trying to argue otherwise.

  25. #1075
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    Re: 2012 General Yankee Comments Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 1936-1939JoeNLou View Post
    Despite all that, his last 5 years were historic. But it's not the greatest 5 year period of all time, like many would make it seem.
    True but 166 ERA+ has to be top 5 for a 5 year run. I can only think of better 5 year stretchs wrt to ERA+ from Pedro, Maddux & Johnson and they were all in 5 man rotations with a lot few innings and a hitters era where a better ERA+ is a bit easier to obtain.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

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