2012 Offense Performance Thread

[effdamets]

A-Rod bunted for a hit this year.

[madjack]

Haha, check swing? thats like saying why dont hitters just foul off every pitch and have a 20 pitch AB to raise pitch counts. It looks really easy on TV

Where the fielders are positioned has nothing to do with the pitcher/batter interaction, which is actually the difficult part. You should stop invoking little league... its pretty silly. Why not compare it to The Natural or Rookie of the Year, those at least involved some adults

I'm asking this in all seriousness- do you know how difficult it is to bunt off of a major league pitcher? I dont, but you make it sound like anyone in MLB can learn it easily, which sounds like an unbased assumption

I think you're exaggerating the expectation. No one thinks they should go up and bunt in every at bat, but that doesn't mean that they should completely remove it from the playbook either.

I am also not expecting you to be able to bunt off a major league pitcher, nor am I expecting myself to do it, nor any other poster on this forum. I am expecting a major league baseball player to bunt. Am I wrong to expect a professional baseball player to have a basic baseball skill?

[ymike673]

I think you're exaggerating the expectation. No one thinks they should go up and bunt in every at bat, but that doesn't mean that they should completely remove it from the playbook either.

I am also not expecting you to be able to bunt off a major league pitcher, nor am I expecting myself to do it, nor any other poster on this forum. I am expecting a major league baseball player to bunt. Am I wrong to expect a professional baseball player to have a basic baseball skill?

The problem is they do not practice it in spring training. If they did you could see it happen more when the situation called for it. Same with trying to slap a ball to the 3b side to beat the shift. They never try to do it in spring training so you are not going to ask them to try it when the games mean something.

[grizy]

It's not just ST. We just don't recruit players that have a lot of bunting experience.

Honestly, I don't want them either. Great hitters don't get asked to bunt a lot. Some guys (Jeter/AGon/Ichiro!) learn it anyway because it's exciting. But, well, the best bunting team in MLB is probably gonna be the worst offensive team in MLB.

[Jace]

I am also not expecting you to be able to bunt off a major league pitcher, nor am I expecting myself to do it, nor any other poster on this forum. I am expecting a major league baseball player to bunt. Am I wrong to expect a professional baseball player to have a basic baseball skill?

I've never talked about random people being able to do it. I'm saying that I think its a difficult skill for a professional baseball player to learn enough to be effective. Your expectation of players being able to do it, and calling it "basic" are not based in either statistics or your own experience, so its really just speculation

I think people see bunting, and they see that the ball doesn't go very far. They see not much effort since there is no swing, and they see little, weak-hitting guys do it. Therefore there's a perception that it must be basic and repeatable (no matter what the pitcher is throwing) and fairly easy to learn

I don't think its easy, at least to be good enough to be productive against a shift. Cano may have great coordination, but so did Michael Jordan, and there were things he wasn't great at

For every successful bunting anecdote there are probably 5 wasted ABs with foul bunts for 2 quick strikes or bunt popups. But nobody writes news stories about those, why would they. Even the successful bunting anecdotes resulted in... a single. Ortiz still faces a shift, he just beats it by hitting HRs and fly balls off of the dumb fenway wall

And finally, theres the opportunity cost of getting good at bunting. Even if Cano/Granderson are capable of getting good at bunting (which isn't certain at all), I'd prefer they spent the time/muscle reps getting good at more important skills

[False1]

I've never talked about random people being able to do it. I'm saying that I think its a difficult skill for a professional baseball player to learn enough to be effective. Your expectation of players being able to do it, and calling it "basic" are not based in either statistics or your own experience, so its really just speculation

I think people see bunting, and they see that the ball doesn't go very far. They see not much effort since there is no swing, and they see little, weak-hitting guys do it. Therefore there's a perception that it must be basic and repeatable (no matter what the pitcher is throwing) and fairly easy to learn

I don't think its easy, at least to be good enough to be productive against a shift. Cano may have great coordination, but so did Michael Jordan, and there were things he wasn't great at

For every successful bunting anecdote there are probably 5 wasted ABs with foul bunts for 2 quick strikes or bunt popups. But nobody writes news stories about those, why would they. Even the successful bunting anecdotes resulted in... a single. Ortiz still faces a shift, he just beats it by hitting HRs and fly balls off of the dumb fenway wall

And finally, theres the opportunity cost of getting good at bunting. Even if Cano/Granderson are capable of getting good at bunting (which isn't certain at all), I'd prefer they spent the time/muscle reps getting good at more important skills

Couldn't have said it better. It's frustrating to watch players hit into the shift, but if it was as simple as just "putting it where they ain't" there would be no such thing as a shift in the first place.

[effdamets]

Bunting has it's place as far as I'm concerned.
It's a very small place though.
Getting a player from 2nd to 3rd (or 1st and 2nd to 2nd and 3rd) by sacrificing an out, score withstanding, is important because a team needs to be able to score a run on an out. That is the scenario to bunt to me. And the hitter that is to bunt needs to be a lower in the order type hitter.
Also, if you have a player who is a good bunter at the plate, you can use a squeeze play to score a tieing or go ahead run.

Two very distinct situations - and that's it!

[madjack]

I've never talked about random people being able to do it. I'm saying that I think its a difficult skill for a professional baseball player to learn enough to be effective. Your expectation of players being able to do it, and calling it "basic" are not based in either statistics or your own experience, so its really just speculation

I think people see bunting, and they see that the ball doesn't go very far. They see not much effort since there is no swing, and they see little, weak-hitting guys do it. Therefore there's a perception that it must be basic and repeatable (no matter what the pitcher is throwing) and fairly easy to learn

I don't think its easy, at least to be good enough to be productive against a shift. Cano may have great coordination, but so did Michael Jordan, and there were things he wasn't great at

For every successful bunting anecdote there are probably 5 wasted ABs with foul bunts for 2 quick strikes or bunt popups. But nobody writes news stories about those, why would they. Even the successful bunting anecdotes resulted in... a single. Ortiz still faces a shift, he just beats it by hitting HRs and fly balls off of the dumb fenway wall

And finally, theres the opportunity cost of getting good at bunting. Even if Cano/Granderson are capable of getting good at bunting (which isn't certain at all), I'd prefer they spent the time/muscle reps getting good at more important skills

You asked if I knew how hard it was to do it. Of course I know it's a hard skill to learn, but I am not expecting just an average person to do it. I am expecting a baseball player to do it.

And are you telling me that the players spend every waking hour perfecting their home run swing? They can't spend 10 minutes a day learning how to bunt? Hell 5 minutes would probably suffice. I am not saying that they should become masters and know drop down the perfect bunt that hugs the foul line. Just know the basics if ever needed and have it in your repertoire.

[False1]

You asked if I knew how hard it was to do it. Of course I know it's a hard skill to learn, but I am not expecting just an average person to do it. I am expecting a baseball player to do it.

And are you telling me that the players spend every waking hour perfecting their home run swing? They can't spend 10 minutes a day learning how to bunt? Hell 5 minutes would probably suffice. I am not saying that they should become masters and know drop down the perfect bunt that hugs the foul line. Just know the basics if ever needed and have it in your repertoire.

Six Minute Abs? Psssht. Five Minute Bunts.

[madjack]

It's like saying Rafael Nadal should never practice his volleys because he spends so much time at the baseline. I am sure he hits a few volleys every day in practice, just in case he has to approach the net. He doesn't do it to the point that he becomes a master at the net like Stefan Edberg, but I am sure he knows enough that he can hit one if need be.


Not every pitch that a hitter sees can be driven 450 feet. Sometimes you have to inside out your swing. Sometimes you have to slap at the ball. If it's a situation that could mean the difference in the game in winning a game, then a player should be ready to whatever is needed, his ego be damned.

BTW, I don't think Cano should be bunting. But he should at least know the skill.

[False1]

It's like saying Rafael Nadal should never practice his volleys because he spends so much time at the baseline. I am sure he hits a few volleys every day in practice, just in case he has to approach the net. He doesn't do it to the point that he becomes a master at the net like Stefan Edberg, but I am sure he knows enough that he can hit one if need be.


Not every pitch that a hitter sees can be driven 450 feet. Sometimes you have to inside out your swing. Sometimes you have to slap at the ball. If it's a situation that could mean the difference in the game in winning a game, then a player should be ready to whatever is needed, his ego be damned.

BTW, I don't think Cano should be bunting. But he should at least know the skill.

Actually, it is not even remotely like that.

[madjack]

Actually, it is not even remotely like that.

Jace said he doesn't want him wasting his time/muscle reps on bunting.

[effdamets]

Wait.... you can't volley from the baseline? WTF is going on here.... Talk in an understandable language!!!!!!!

[dabomb2045]

IMO you should only be sac bunting in the 8th inning or later....if you only need one run. I'll also say its acceptable earlier in the game if you are trying to move guys over and someone like Chris Stewart is up.

Other then that, and the occassional guy trying to bunt for a hit (something Gardner would do, or if a guy sees the third baseman very deep and tries to sneak one down the line)...bunting should just never happen.

Your best hitters should also never bunt. I hate when I see Jeter bunt someone over. Dude's a .320 hitter. Swing away.

[Yankee Tripper]

IMO you should only be sac bunting in the 8th inning or later....if you only need one run. I'll also say its acceptable earlier in the game if you are trying to move guys over and someone like Chris Stewart is up.

Other then that, and the occassional guy trying to bunt for a hit (something Gardner would do, or if a guy sees the third baseman very deep and tries to sneak one down the line)...bunting should just never happen.

Your best hitters should also never bunt. I hate when I see Jeter bunt someone over. Dude's a .320 hitter. Swing away.

Jeter was an awsome bunter for base hits earlier in his career.

His career line bunting is 53/82 .646 with 87 sac bunts. Even if you count the sac bunts as "outs" instead of sacs he'd still be hitting .313 on bunts for his career.

[grizy]

Tennis training is putting more and more emphasis on aggressive baselining because it's easier to train for.

That and, even for the best volleyers, approaching the net without gaining some advantage first with a good serve or shot is extremely risky at best.

[Yankee Tripper]

Tennis training is putting more and more emphasis on aggressive baselining because it's easier to train for.

That and, even for the best volleyers, approaching the net without gaining some advantage first with a good serve or shot is extremely risky at best.

What does this have to do with baseball. Also racket design changes in the 80s and beyind have made serve and volley games much more difficult.

[awy]

lol..

[Mr Coffee]

All we need now is someone who played little league tennis and we'll have come full circle.

[Jace]

Jeter was an awsome bunter for base hits earlier in his career.

His career line bunting is 53/82 .646 with 87 sac bunts. Even if you count the sac bunts as "outs" instead of sacs he'd still be hitting .313 on bunts for his career.

Well, they are definitely "outs" as defined by only getting 27 in a game. So in those plate appearances, he's .313/.313/.626. And he's a very skilled bunter, as MLB players go

Any comparisons to other sports or to children playing baseball are very irrelevant

[just-blaze]

Not being able to hit Randy Wolf is concerning....I mean pathetic.

It's even more depressing when you start to look at careerlines against him.

[just-blaze]

Not being able to hit Randy Wolf is concerning....I mean pathetic.

It's even more depressing when you start to look at careerlines against him.

I guess you guys needed some motivation.

[peeps4iife]

i miss the days where 6 runs/game was closer to normal. MLB offense is depressing this year.

[Yankee Tripper]

epic failure today early. bases loaded none out, no runs.
1sy & 3rd 1 out, no runs.
ugh.
go Boston?

[JSG]

utterly pathetic

between a rod and granderson

Girardi starting jones and pulling andy for joba

and more blown calls ........ just a hot mess collage ......