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  1. #151

    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Agreed on all counts, including your first sentence.

    But it's hard not to scratch your head both during and after a few of the moves. Even if you completely ignore the Nunez/Ibanez starts in the field, ordering CC to walk Sean Rodriguez in the first inning of the first game to get to Pena wasn't wise, and letting Rapada pitch to Evan Longoria was also unquestionably dumb. Those aren't even close to fireable offenses, but doesn't mean they can't be called out as bad calls on Girardi's part that contributed to losses.
    Yup.

    At worst, Rodriguez flares one and you're down 2-0, and even that's a stretch. I still don't get it, unless he's really not able to look past a spreadsheet. And I'm a spreadsheet guy...
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  2. #152

    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BRNXBMRS View Post
    Maddon made Girardi look like a little league manager. He is the best manager in MLB.
    I think it's safe to say that Maddon made as many head-scratching decisions as Girardi, if not more. Only one difference - the Rays won.

    It's easier to dissect questionable moves when the manager is on the losing end. They tend to linger.


  3. #153
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Joe Maddon would drive the same people praising him nuts if he was the Yankee manager.

    Grass is always greener.

  4. #154

    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    I don't want Girardi fired nor am I jumping off a bridge.

    That doesn't mean his management over the last few days wasn't atrocious, and didn't cost the Yankees a win or two. He didn't get a raw deal - he made stupid decisions. Not in hindsight either, just plain bad moves.

    Yeah, I get the "managing for the season" idea, but this was the first three games. Nowhere do you walk a .600ish OPS guy to load the bases for a HR hitter. F - lefty/righty - it was classic Girardi trying to do too much.

    I used to like how Girardi was the anti-Torre in terms of letting young relievers develop, but he's stunk at his in-game management of late, and deserves to be called on it.
    Fair points, and FYI, I wasn't including you or False 1 in that "bridge-jumping/fire Girardi" group. YOu guys certainly aren't that simplistic. It's just the overall climate in this thread. Sometimes it borders on ugly, but that's to be expected.


  5. #155

    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I don't know if Girardi is getting a raw deal-- he definitely made some questionable moves. I do agree about Maddon, though-- not all of his moves are going to work out perfectly like they did over these past three games. He was lucky. He's going to look foolish on moves as well this season, just not right now.

    Bottom line-- people are a little too down on Girardi right now, and a little too up on Maddon.
    This pretty much nails it.

    And I hear ya. Those sure were questionable moves by Girardi, but I think between Torre and him I've become immune to some of them.


  6. #156
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrusader View Post
    Joe Maddon would drive the same people praising him nuts if he was the Yankee manager.

    Grass is always greener.
    Well said.
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  7. #157
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Do any of you believe that Joe ever goes over the next days pitcher, armed with video tape on what and how they get people out and what there weaknesses may be. Or takes our starting pitcher aside a go over each hitters strengths and weaknesses.

    There never seems to be a game plan, have you ever noticed that our opposing teams best hitter always does well against us? Think about it, those are the kind of things that are never brought up. I would think that going into a game, you'd have to go over certain players, and what not to throw or what gets them out.

    You just can't leave everything up to the players, I don't care how good a player is they need to be lead, just take a look at certain great managers, how many times have you said wow what great moves and realized that they were the difference in the end. I'm not sure that I've ever thought that about Joe in a game.

    Example - How many fast balls in a row will you continue to throw to Pena in an at bat?

  8. #158
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    I think it's safe to say that Maddon made as many head-scratching decisions as Girardi, if not more. Only one difference - the Rays won.

    It's easier to dissect questionable moves when the manager is on the losing end. They tend to linger.
    Which of Maddon's decisions are you referring to? Absolutely SSS issues when comparing managers in a 3 game series, we really can't draw any conclusions whatsoever from it in terms of "ability", but I think it would be very hard to say that Maddon didn't appear omniscient with his lineups and especially his defensive alignments.

  9. #159

    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    Maddon got lucky in game 1 with Rivera blowing the save.
    Yes but he also gambles and takes a shot once in a while.

  10. #160
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrusader View Post
    Joe Maddon would drive the same people praising him nuts if he was the Yankee manager.

    Grass is always greener.
    Doubt it. While Maddon can be quirky and does get a little too cute sometimes, I think he's the best manager in the game, hands down.

    Someone above had a really good post where they mentioned how managers interpret data, and that while Girardi has all the data and studies it constantly, but just doesn't seem to always process it correctly. L/R matchups are the perfect example when it comes to Girardi, and even more specifically James Shields. Shields crushes left handed hitters, especially over the last couple years. While his career splits are almost even (though still indicate he's slightly more effective against LHB's), he torched them in 2011. But, he throws with his right hand, so Girardi will unceasingly stack lefties against him every time they match up. Why? Shields has a ridiculous changeup that he uses to punish LHB's. But it doesn't matter because he's a righty, so you can bet all season long he'll see a lot of LHB's when he faces NYY.

    Maddon doesn't fall into these antiquated ways of thinking. He looks at what the numbers actually say and reacts accordingly.

  11. #161
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    I never said Maddon isn't a good manager.

    I said people with personalities wired to complain on a irrational level would complain about Maddon as well if he was the Yankee manager.

    For how great Mike Scioscia is perceived for example I'm sure he wouldn't be perceived that way if he was in New York missing the postseason the last two years in 2010 and 2011 like he did with the Angels.

    But he's in Southern California so no biggie.

    It comes down to winning ball games on the field which in baseball comes down to the players on the field during the 162 game season.

    Again I'm not saying don't criticize the manager because I myself mentioned I had issues with the IBB as it was happening on Friday.

    I just think some of you think the baseball manager is more important then he actually is when it comes to strategy.

    I think a baseball mangers worth has more to do with the handling of personalities in the clubhouse and having your players buy in and play hard for you then actual X's and O's which in the American League there is actually little of to begin with.

  12. #162

    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    I think it's safe to say that Maddon made as many head-scratching decisions as Girardi, if not more. Only one difference - the Rays won.

    It's easier to dissect questionable moves when the manager is on the losing end. They tend to linger.
    I am puzzeled by the resting of the players already.

  13. #163

    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BRNXBMRS View Post
    I am puzzeled by the resting of the players already.
    I agree.

    Swisher I get if he indeed has a lingering groin issue, and I know Jeter and A-Rod will need to rest some time, but the first two games?
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  14. #164
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YESSIR! View Post
    Doubt it. While Maddon can be quirky and does get a little too cute sometimes,
    I think he's the best manager in the game, hands down.
    Someone above had a really good post where they mentioned how managers interpret data, and that while Girardi has all the data and studies it constantly, but just doesn't seem to always process it correctly. L/R matchups are the perfect example when it comes to Girardi, and even more specifically James Shields. Shields crushes left handed hitters, especially over the last couple years. While his career splits are almost even (though still indicate he's slightly more effective against LHB's), he torched them in 2011. But, he throws with his right hand, so Girardi will unceasingly stack lefties against him every time they match up. Why? Shields has a ridiculous changeup that he uses to punish LHB's. But it doesn't matter because he's a righty, so you can bet all season long he'll see a lot of LHB's when he faces NYY.

    Maddon doesn't fall into these antiquated ways of thinking. He looks at what the numbers actually say and reacts accordingly.
    I agree about Madden, an have thought that a long time about his genius, also I feel that way about Mike Scioscia.

  15. #165
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    It comes down to the players on the field.

    If Joe Maddon had Randy Winn as his best hitter and Victor Zambrano as his "ace" circa Tampa Bay Devil Rays days the results might be a little bit different.

    Texas stacked their roster with talent and the Angels missed the postseason the last two years.

    I think most of you would say Mike Scioscia is a better manager then Ron Washington I assume, right?

    But Washington has had the more talented team over the last two years and the tally is....

    Ron Wahington 2 Mike Scioscia 0 in postseason appearances the last two years.

    So the Angels go out and sign Pujols and keep their manager go figure.

  16. #166
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrusader View Post
    It comes down to the players on the field.
    Except when your manager's name is Joe Girardi those players never make it onto the field. Just sayin'

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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Funny line but my point stands.

  18. #168
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NoodleRay View Post
    have you ever noticed that our opposing teams best hitter always does well against us?
    That's probably because he's their best hitter.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  19. #169
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Have you ever noticed that in NASCAR races that it's not always the fastest car that wins? It takes a team with a brilliant crew chief, an a great game plan. It takes more then players. Although I do agree that Detroit and the Angels are ridiculous, and have a huge advantage.

    Monsters that hit over 300 with an on base % of 400 or better, an a great eye to top things off. I believe that each team has two.

    I left out tremendous power!

  20. #170
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    That's probably because he's their best hitter.
    Does our best hitter always do well against lets say the Angels??

  21. #171
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NoodleRay View Post
    Does our best hitter always do well against lets say the Angels??
    If in your mind the answer to your question is no then I would think that's on the hitter, right?

    I would hope that if you think the our best hitter struggles against the Angles who ever that may be you would put the blame on the "best" hitter and not on the manager.

    It's the "best" hitter doing the hitting not the manager or even the hitting coach.

  22. #172
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrusader View Post
    If in your mind the answer to your question is no then I would think that's on the hitter, right?

    I would hope that if you think the our best hitter struggles against the Angles who ever that may be you would put the blame on the "best" hitter and not on the manager.

    It's the "best" hitter doing the hitting not the manager or even the hitting coach.
    I never said that our best hitter struggles against the Angels, I said that he don't always do well. Like their best hitter against us. It was an example!!

    Lets end it, there's no use!

  23. #173
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NoodleRay View Post
    Does our best hitter always do well against lets say the Angels??
    Robinson Cano v. LAA:
    2009 - .341/.357/.415
    2010 - .433/.514/.900
    2011 - .333/.333/.778
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  24. #174
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    What happened to the last really stubborn coach we had in NYC? Oh yeah Mike Woodson says hello, Mike D'Antoni

  25. #175
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    Re: 2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    What happened to the last really stubborn coach we had in NYC? Oh yeah Mike Woodson says hello, Mike D'Antoni
    You're not honestly going to compare the imact of coaching and offense implantation in basketball to baseball are you?

    Professional baseball the same sport that hired two baseball mangers to coach the Cardinals(Mike Matheny) and the White Sox(Robin Ventura) with absolutely no baseball managing experience let alone professional experience this past off season.

    Would that ever happen in the NBA or NFL?

    The hiring of coaches to run pro NBA and NFL team with no coaching experience whatsoever?

    It can work in baseball because baseball is a managing of personalities so I'm not judging but that would never happen in the NBA or NFL thus your example is simply foolish.

    Coaching strategy and X's and O's really, really matters in the NBA and NFL.

    In fact in the NBA and NFL the best coaches, assistants, coordinators for the most part never played a lick of professional basketball or football it's irrelevant to being a good coach in those sports.

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