2012 Joe Girardi Performance Thread

[SLURPEE]

He's not a great manager...

[GordonGecko]

I'm not saying this because the Yankees are 0-3 on terrible managing, but Girardi needs to be fired. I say it every year, Girardi just really sucks. He over manages and manages badly, and the Yankees have to win IN SPITE of him. This team could be so much better with a competent manager, I think it's time for a change and I'd rather not it take something like 5-20 to make it happen

[Yankees1962]

I'm not saying this because the Yankees are 0-3 on terrible managing, but Girardi needs to be fired. I say it every year, Girardi just really sucks. He over manages and manages badly, and the Yankees have to win IN SPITE of him. This team could be so much better with a competent manager, I think it's time for a change and I'd rather not it take something like 5-20 to make it happen

Finally the post I've been waiting on.

[GordonGecko]

Game 1-- Walked Rodriguez, Pena Grand Slam
Game 2-- Play Nunez at SS, He makes the key error
Game 3-- Play Ibanez in RF, He misplays ball for a run.

Its amazing how every questionable move by Girardi backfires.

But really the main problem is while the Rays seem to be able to score at will with 2 outs no one on the Yankees can get a hit with RISP unless its a home run.
Just like last season and 2010.

Don't forget not playing Brett Gardner every day because of his worship of the righty/lefty matchup religion that doesn't make a lick of difference in the final score

[justtxyank]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the idea that resting players 3 games in is a problem. He's not "resting them" because they are tired, he's trying to keep them fresh.

Girardi believes in giving players days off, something I believe in as well, to keep them fresh throughout a season. Everyone seems to be so used to the idea of "run them into the ground and then start giving them days off just to let them feel a little better" mantra of old. That idea kills players, particularly the older guys.

Edit: To me the big problems are not believing in letting Gardner play against lefties, seeing Ibanez as a fielder (this seems to be a Yankee problem in general) and believing Boone is a good reliever against righties.

Seriously, Girardi said in spring that he doesn't see Boone as a lefty specialist. Ugh. Also, all winter and spring we were getting articles about how the reason the Yankees preferred Ibanez was because of his fielding ability. What? The guy is a horrible fielder. I had hopes that maybe that was just fluff or a FO thing and that Girardi wouldn't play him in the field. Egads.

[SLURPEE]

I'm not saying this because the Yankees are 0-3 on terrible managing, but Girardi needs to be fired. I say it every year, Girardi just really sucks. He over manages and manages badly, and the Yankees have to win IN SPITE of him. This team could be so much better with a competent manager, I think it's time for a change and I'd rather not it take something like 5-20 to make it happen

Which is hard to keep up.

In 09, he made the same over managing moves, but the team was just so good it over came that.

You can't do that every year.

[avln]

girardi was out managed big time!!!!!

[ymike673]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the idea that resting players 3 games in is a problem. He's not "resting them" because they are tired, he's trying to keep them fresh.

Girardi believes in giving players days off, something I believe in as well, to keep them fresh throughout a season. Everyone seems to be so used to the idea of "run them into the ground and then start giving them days off just to let them feel a little better" mantra of old. That idea kills players, particularly the older guys.

Edit: To me the big problems are not believing in letting Gardner play against lefties, seeing Ibanez as a fielder (this seems to be a Yankee problem in general) and believing Boone is a good reliever against righties.

Seriously, Girardi said in spring that he doesn't see Boone as a lefty specialist. Ugh. Also, all winter and spring we were getting articles about how the reason the Yankees preferred Ibanez was because of his fielding ability. What? The guy is a horrible fielder. I had hopes that maybe that was just fluff or a FO thing and that Girardi wouldn't play him in the field. Egads.

I understand resting players to keep them fresh. But in the first 3 games of the season? Also the Rays look to be the Yankees biggest threat in the East. So why rest players in games against the Rays. If Joe wants to rest players against the Orioles, fine. But not in the opening three games against the Rays.

[YESSIR!]

The only valid beef in my opinion with Giradi this weekend was the IBB in game 1 which I thought was ridiculous along with Cone and Pinella so it wasn't a second guess on my part and if it wasn't for Mariano blowing the save we would have ironically won that game.

Nunez and Ibanez are part of the team and have roles on the team they are going to play, their mistakes are not on Girardi those are the players Cashman gave him if you want a upgrade then look to Cashman.

Cashman gave Girardi Ibanez to DH, with the idea he'd be capable of playing the outfield in an emergency. Starting him in RF in the 3rd game of the season coming off two straight losses was just idiotic. If Swisher needed a day because of his groin or whatever (which it didn't look like anyway), give him the day and start your 4th outfielder, Andruw Jones, the guy thats 6+ years younger and is actually still capable of playing the field. The lefty bat isn't that important, especially vs. a soft tossing changeup artist like Hellickson.

Anyway. I don't dislike Girardi as much as most; overall I think he does an okay job. But this series was a trainwreck. Especially when you have a guy like Maddon, who's just on a whole 'nother level, in the other dugout. Things just look that much worse.

[NoodleRay]

I would argue that Girardi's flaw in these situations is not the use of the book... it is instead the fact he is not good at using the book. Often - not all the time, but often - when he cites data in post game interviews to defend questionable moves, it doesn't make a lot of sense. He has the right data, he is just using it in odd, counter productive ways. I'm not sure what it is, but it is almost like he has statistical tunnel vision and is unable to find the nuances in the data that are sometimes required to make smart decisions. He'll focus in on one stat column... and not take into consideration the bigger informational picture, or the current situation in the game.

Making a move based on batting average in a situation where you want to avoid a home run, for example.

Why Madden is better, in my opinion, is not because he does things based on how he feels, but because he is better at using the data correctly.

These amazing shifts they are using right now is an example. Those are purely information based, not due to any gut feelings he has about where Yankee hitters might hit the ball. He KNOWS where Yankee hitters might hit the ball. It is beautiful to see them used successfully. I'm jealous.

I agree and if you look in the offensive thread you'll see that we think alike, match up the time of the post and you'll see just how much I agree with you. More so on Maddens genius then with Girardi.

I really believe that Joe suffers in several areas, I do believe that you have brought to the surface his most alarming problem as a manager. If you notice when Joe is interviewed after a loss he becomes very defensive, and he does resort to the book, your right about that.

I do think that sometimes certain people have the education and knowledge, but are unable to do the job correctly because they may not have the IQ or common sense that is needed. I know you didn't want to say it, so I said it. An I've thought that ever since his first season as the Yankee coach.

I think that this bunch of players are too much for Joe to handle, if his heart is really set on managing he just may have to find a younger team, that he can have control over..

[SLURPEE]

My favorite Girardi moment was back in 2008.

Yankees were in KC. A monsoon was in the forecast.

Girardi being the brilliant manager that he is, decides to start the game with his bull pen.

The rain/monsoon did come but the umpires never called the game.

My guess, is that they saw Girardi do this and probably thought they were being shown up.


Still gives be a big laugh to this day. The ultimate over managing move. lol

[ajra21]

My favorite Girardi moment was back in 2008.

Yankees were in KC. A monsoon was in the forecast.

Girardi being the brilliant manager that he is, decides to start the game with his bull pen.

The rain/monsoon did come but the umpires never called the game.

My guess, is that they saw Girardi do this and probably thought they were being shown up.


Still gives be a big laugh to this day. The ultimate over managing move. lol

If I recall, that was heavily praised around here for out of the box thinking.

[ArodEra]

For those who are so angry and vocal about wanting Girardi gone, does any of the blame for initially hiring him and then signing him to a lengthy new contract fall on anybody's hands, like, say...I don't know.... the GM's?

I also missed the part where Girardi signed Ibanez and traded the only potential offensive force from a farm system that's bereft of any offensive weapons and positional players, and has been for years.

[False1]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the idea that resting players 3 games in is a problem. He's not "resting them" because they are tired, he's trying to keep them fresh.

Girardi believes in giving players days off, something I believe in as well, to keep them fresh throughout a season. Everyone seems to be so used to the idea of "run them into the ground and then start giving them days off just to let them feel a little better" mantra of old. That idea kills players, particularly the older guys.

Edit: To me the big problems are not believing in letting Gardner play against lefties, seeing Ibanez as a fielder (this seems to be a Yankee problem in general) and believing Boone is a good reliever against righties.

Seriously, Girardi said in spring that he doesn't see Boone as a lefty specialist. Ugh. Also, all winter and spring we were getting articles about how the reason the Yankees preferred Ibanez was because of his fielding ability. What? The guy is a horrible fielder. I had hopes that maybe that was just fluff or a FO thing and that Girardi wouldn't play him in the field. Egads.

I'm trying to be in this same frame of mind and keep from overreacting. I would have preferred the "rest" to come against the (first place!) Orioles but I guess you could argue that he's trying to reduce injury risk right out of spring training and also trying to ensure bench players that will almost inevitably see more time than anyone would like stay fresh too.

Completely agree on sitting Gardner to get Ibanez in the lineup though. I'd forsake the L/R matchup there and plug Jones in RF and hope Hellickson gives him a mistake he can handle. Gardner is a very important peice offensively and defensively and should not be platooned IMHO.

Re: Logan, he did have great splits against RHB last year but that was certainly anomalous with the rest of his career.

[ZIM 2002]

Going back to the issue of not playing Gardner against lefties, I seem to recall that when he came up he wasn't bad against lefties. If he doesn't get to face them, he won't get any better, and he'll probably get worse because he'll have it in his head that the manager doesn't think he can do the job. That's directly opposite to the encouragement that Maddon gives players - ex. Pena giving him credit for telling him just worry about being the first baseman, and if you strike out you strike out. Gardner shouldn't be a platoon player.

[NerfBall55]

For those who are so angry and vocal about wanting Girardi gone, does any of the blame for initially hiring him and then signing him to a lengthy new contract fall on anybody's hands, like, say...I don't know.... the GM's?

I also missed the part where Girardi signed Ibanez and traded the only potential offensive force from a farm system that's bereft of any offensive weapons and positional players, and has been for years.

If Cashman hadn't traded Montero, this would have somehow stopped Giralrdi from intentionally walking Rodriguez, starting Nunez on the second day, and sitting Swisher?

[False1]

For those who are so angry and vocal about wanting Girardi gone, does any of the blame for initially hiring him and then signing him to a lengthy new contract fall on anybody's hands, like, say...I don't know.... the GM's?

I also missed the part where Girardi signed Ibanez and traded the only potential offensive force from a farm system that's bereft of any offensive weapons and positional players, and has been for years.

Haha, A-RodEra in mid-season form.

You could argue that when Girardi used Ibanez as intended in game 1, he hit what should have been a game-winning 3R HR. Forcing his glove into the mix was a bit unnecessary IMHO and it cost them in game 3. I will say that the ugly attempt Ibanez made is being overplayed some because I think that run would have scored anyway, but I thought the plan was Ibanez was an emergency 5OF.

Have any other managers started their 5OF yet?

[BRNXBMRS]

Anyway. I don't dislike Girardi as much as most; overall I think he does an okay job. But this series was a trainwreck. Especially when you have a guy like Maddon, who's just on a whole 'nother level, in the other dugout. Things just look that much worse.

Maddon made Girardi look like a little league manager. He is the best manager in MLB.

[Yankees1962]

Maddon made Girardi look like a little league manager. He is the best manager in MLB.

Maddon got lucky in game 1 with Rivera blowing the save.

[ArodEra]

If Cashman hadn't traded Montero, this would have somehow stopped Giralrdi from intentionally walking Rodriguez, starting Nunez on the second day, and sitting Swisher?

No, but if Cashman hadn't hired Girardi in the first place, this would have been avoided.

Look, it's obvious that my point is that regardless of what you may think of Girardi's managing, he can only play with the hand he's been dealt. Over the long haul, this team's age, players in obvious decline, some ridiculous contracts, and lack of positional players/offense on the farm, are a bigger concern to me than Girardi's managing or what some might call "mis-managing." And for the record, I was for the Pineda deal.

Personally, I think that Girardi is getting a raw deal in this thread. Had the Yanks won, we'd be talking about some of the bonehead moves that Maddon made; it's the nature of the beast. That doesn't mean I was thrilled with the decision to intentionally walk someone to get to Pena...in the 1st inning no less, but I look at the bigger picture and I'm not about to jump off the bridge after 3 freakin games, even if some believe that our manager cost us at least one of those. Overall, despite some flaws (as every manager has), I think that Girardi is a stabilizing force and good for this team.

[NYCrusader]

As I said earlier all you can really hope for is that your baseball manager to be competent and a leader of men which I think Girardi is.

If you're of the opinion that we need a new manager because Girardi sucks so much then so be it.

But I'm just cognizant of the fact that this isn't basketball or football where X's and O'S are of great importance.

It comes down to how the players on the field preform.

We are 0-3 right now and I understand the manager is going to get crap for it but just don't expect me to join in because in the sport of baseball it's usually up to the players on the field.

Usually a change in manger specifically in baseball has nothing to do with in game decisions meaning X's and O'S but with the manager losing the clubhouse and them not playing hard for the manager anymore.

Being a baseabll manager over the course of 162 games is more of a dealing with personalities and being a psychologist then it is actual X and O's.

Which is why Dusty Baker seems to keep getting job after job even though his in game managing is highly suspect which is a understatement, and guess what the players play hard for the guy and they are always competing.

The grass is greener on the other side when when it comes to Joe Maddon and every manager some of you clamor for.

I remember the same type of things being said about Girardi when he was on the Marlins and interviewing for the Yankees about how awesome he is and now all of a sudden the same guy is a terrible manager.

[ArodEra]

Haha, A-RodEra in mid-season form.

You could argue that when Girardi used Ibanez as intended in game 1, he hit what should have been a game-winning 3R HR. Forcing his glove into the mix was a bit unnecessary IMHO and it cost them in game 3. I will say that the ugly attempt Ibanez made is being overplayed some because I think that run would have scored anyway, but I thought the plan was Ibanez was an emergency 5OF.

Have any other managers started their 5OF yet?

Couldn't resist, especially when some of the same people who are so vociferous in wanting Girardi fired...after 3 freakin games... are some of the same people who come to Cashman's defense if anyone even sneezes near him. Actually, it's both ironic and funny.

And as you can tell from my sig (that I've had since he was a free agant), I'm not exactly a fan of the Ibanez signing. And yeah, Joe should hide him as often as he can...like have him count practice balls on the bench instead of playing the field.

[Mr Coffee]

Personally, I think that Girardi is getting a raw deal here. Had the Yanks won, we'd be talking about some of the bonehead moves that Maddon made; it's the nature of the beast. That doesn't mean I was thrilled with the decision to intentionally walk someone to get to Pena...in the 1st inning no less, but I look at the bigger picture and I'm not about to jump off the bridge after 3 freakin games, even if some believe that our manager cost us at least one.

I don't know if Girardi is getting a raw deal-- he definitely made some questionable moves. I do agree about Maddon, though-- not all of his moves are going to work out perfectly like they did over these past three games. He was lucky. He's going to look foolish on moves as well this season, just not right now.

Bottom line-- people are a little too down on Girardi right now, and a little too up on Maddon.

[NerfBall55]

No, but if Cashman hadn't hired Girardi in the first place, this would have been avoided.

Look, it's obvious that my point is that regardless of what you may think of Girardi's managing, he can only play with the hand he's been dealt. Over the long haul, with this team's age, players in obvious decline and some ridiculous contracts , that's my bigger concern over Girardi's managing or what some might call "mis-managing." And for the record, I was for the Pineda deal.

Personally, I think that Girardi is getting a raw deal here. Had the Yanks won, we'd be talking about some of the bonehead moves that Maddon made; it's the nature of the beast. That doesn't mean I was thrilled with the decision to intentionally walk someone to get to Pena...in the 1st inning no less, but I look at the bigger picture and I'm not about to jump off the bridge after 3 freakin games, even if some believe that our manager cost us at least one.

I don't want Girardi fired nor am I jumping off a bridge.

That doesn't mean his management over the last few days wasn't atrocious, and didn't cost the Yankees a win or two. He didn't get a raw deal - he made stupid decisions. Not in hindsight either, just plain bad moves.

Yeah, I get the "managing for the season" idea, but this was the first three games. Nowhere do you walk a .600ish OPS guy to load the bases for a HR hitter. F - lefty/righty - it was classic Girardi trying to do too much.

I used to like how Girardi was the anti-Torre in terms of letting young relievers develop, but he's stunk at his in-game management of late, and deserves to be called on it.

[False1]

I don't want Girardi fired nor am I jumping off a bridge.

That doesn't mean his management over the last few days wasn't atrocious, and didn't cost the Yankees a win or two. He didn't get a raw deal - he made stupid decisions. Not in hindsight either, just plain bad moves.

Yeah, I get the "managing for the season" idea, but this was the first three games. Nowhere do you walk a .600ish OPS guy to load the bases for a HR hitter. F - lefty/righty - it was classic Girardi trying to do too much.

I used to like how Girardi was the anti-Torre in terms of letting young relievers develop, but he's stunk at his in-game management of late, and deserves to be called on it.

Agreed on all counts, including your first sentence.

But it's hard not to scratch your head both during and after a few of the moves. Even if you completely ignore the Nunez/Ibanez starts in the field, ordering CC to walk Sean Rodriguez in the first inning of the first game to get to Pena wasn't wise, and letting Rapada pitch to Evan Longoria was also unquestionably dumb. Those aren't even close to fireable offenses, but doesn't mean they can't be called out as bad calls on Girardi's part that contributed to losses.