2012 Robinson Cano performance thread

[K-W]

I didn't say they weren't exactly the same. I said they were inappropriate because they're not comparable.

And you based that argument on them being different. I wasn't comparing the amount of effort involved in the two activities I was comparing the way fans complain about them. You haven't even addressed my actual comparison.

You accuse me of trolling yet you seem to agree with what I'm actually saying which is that this is something that stands out to a fan watching games every day but that it isn't that significant and doesn't make Cano a bad example or uncommitted on the field. I initially entered this discussion to say I thought it was driven more by fans seeing it as easy than it was by racism.

I make the added point that just because something is easy doesn't mean it is trivial for a person who already has a lot on their plate a hard case to make for something this easy but it does explain why a hardworking person would let themselves off the hook for an easy task.

[NYRangers79]

Cano's Post Season Cumulative numbers..

.222/.267/.419

A-rod's Post Season Cumulative numbers...

.263/.369/.464

Jeter's Post Season Cumulative numbers..

.308/.374/.465

[False1]

I agree that the "lack of hustle" and the "way he sat on the bench with his feet up" are nitpicks. But the implication that race fuels those point-in-time observation is ridiculous. People complain about pretty much every player on the planet at some point or another, especially when things are going about as bad as can be imagined.

Swisher got similar criticism this offseason for looking like he didn't care when the Yankees couldn't hit their way out of a paper bag. What's the explanation for that? Hughes came to camp fat, Joba also, Kennedy wasn't mentally strong, Pavano was a hypochondriac, AJ was a headcase ... did any of those observations have to do with race?

These are point in time observations, and whether or not you agree with the relative impact of them is debatable. Are people that don't point these things out or get wound up about them when they occur apologists or just intentionally or subconsciously burying some form of racism? C'mon.

[False1]

Cano's Post Season Cumulative numbers..

.222/.267/.419

A-rod's Post Season Cumulative numbers...

.263/.369/.464

Jeter's Post Season Cumulative numbers..

.308/.374/.465

That's an incomplete comparison though. If the Yankees continue to reach the postseason as frequently as they have in Jeter's time here, I think you'll see Cano's numbers come up. You're measuring it immediately after a DISASTROUS 40 AB or so. I don't think those 3 hits in 40 AB are indicative of his true "postseason ability". He absolutely raked in the '10 and '11 playoffs, but unfortunately the team didn't advance in spite of that.

[jcarey]

And you based that argument on them being different. I wasn't comparing the amount of effort involved in the two activities I was comparing the way fans complain about them. You haven't even addressed my actual comparison.

You said it was the same discussion as complaining about bunting. When your argument is that two things are the same, it is perfectly fine for my argument to point out that they are different. And it's different because training to bunt takes away time Cano could use developing more useful skills. Cano doesn't have to train how to run. Or learn how to run. Or mentally prepare himself to run. Yes, the benefit in both scenarios are small, but the inputs are very different.

You accuse me of trolling yet you seem to agree with what I'm actually saying which is that this is something that stands out to a fan watching games every day but that it isn't that significant and doesn't make Cano a bad example or uncommitted on the field. I initially entered this discussion to say I thought it was driven more by fans seeing it as easy than it was by racism.

I agree it's not a big issue. I disagree that it would actually detract from his game somehow by asking him to run to first - due to the mental stress or opportunity cost of running hard.

I make the added point that just because something is easy doesn't mean it is trivial for a person who already has a lot on their plate a hard case to make for something this easy but it does explain why a hardworking person would let themselves off the hook for an easy task.

It's a ridiculous case to even want to make. Try refusing to ever put the toilet seat down because you're a "hardworking person" in other aspects of your life.

And I could be wrong, but I don't think Cano says "I've worked hard, I'm gonna let myself relax on this ground out because I deserve it" every time he doesn't run hard to first.

[teknetic]

Despite all of the attention given to the pitching staff in the offseason, the Yankees actually came into the season with more questions in the batter’s box than on the mound. Would Curtis Granderson hit for the same kind of power? Would Derek Jeter continue his second half resurgence? Would Alex Rodriguez stay healthy? Would Mark Teixeira reverse his downward trend? We could go on and on, but the one position player who came into the year with no concerns was Robinson Cano.

At age 29, Cano was New York’s best hitter and best all-around player for the third consecutive season. He also indisputably established himself as the best second baseman in baseball as Ian Kinsler’s performance took a step back and both Chase Utley and Dustin Pedroia continued to battle injuries. Robbie entered his peak and became a legitimate MVP-caliber player in 2010, sustained that performance in 2011, and actually managed to crank it up a notch in 2012.

Cano played in at least 159 games for the sixth consecutive year (he played in 161 games in 2012) and either set or tied career-highs in doubles (48), homers (33), runs (105), total walks (61), unintentional walks (51), ISO (.238), SLG (.550), OPS (.929), OPS+ (149), wOBA (.394), wRC+ (150), bWAR (8.2), and fWAR (7.8). The two WAR totals place him second and fourth in all of baseball (including pitchers), respectively. All told, Robinson hit a marvelous .313/.379/.550 overall — including an insane .359/.423/.685 against righties, a 196 wRC+ that was the best in baseball by 20 (!) points (Mike Trout was second at 176) — and led the Yankees in almost every meaningful offensive category.Down the stretch in September, when the Bombers were trying to fend off the Orioles for the division crown, Cano was at his absolute best. He closed the regular season out with nine consecutive multi-hit games (one shy of the franchise record), going 24-for-39 (.615) with seven doubles and three homers in the nine games. The Yankees went 6-3 in that stretch to clinch the division title. Robbie hit .347/.418/.581 overall in September and .335/.408/.589 in the club’s final 40 games. New York blew a ten-game division lead to the Orioles but never actually fell out of first place, and Cano’s production was a big reason why.

Obviously Robbie absolutely stunk in the postseason, there’s no denying that. He was the worst offender in a lineup that completely disappeared in the ALCS (and to a lesser extent, the ALDS), but those nine games in October aren’t nearly enough to nullify his regular season contributions. Cano was one of the five best players in baseball this season (at worst) and the Yankees don’t even sniff the postseason without him. He’s been their best and most important player for three years running, and considering that he just turned 30 earlier this week, Robinson will be expected to be the same massively productive player in 2013.

http://riveraveblues.com/

Time to sell high.

He absolutely raked in the '10 and '11 playoffs, but unfortunately the team didn't advance in spite of that.

It's staggering how many people (usually those who want him traded/question his work ethic) completely gloss over this. Apparently if the team doesn't win, it doesn't count.

[grizy]

http://riveraveblues.com/

Time to sell high.



It's staggering how many people (usually those who want him traded/question his work ethic) completely gloss over this. Apparently if the team doesn't win, it doesn't count.

those are outliers.

Cano also did well with RISP in those two years.

In every other year, he was a significantly worse hitter in the playoffs and with RISP.

[K-W]

You said it was the same discussion as complaining about bunting. When your argument is that two things are the same, it is perfectly fine for my argument to point out that they are different.

SAME DISCUSSION

I compared the discussion. You even remember that I compared the discussion and yet you still accuse me of comparing the actions.

I disagree that it would actually detract from his game somehow by asking him to run to first - due to the mental stress or opportunity cost of running hard.

Like I said, I doubt this is the straw that breaks his back. If you would just read my posts accurately you would realize I am not saying most of the things you are disagreeing with.

It's a ridiculous case to even want to make. Try refusing to ever put the toilet seat down because you're a "hardworking person" in other aspects of your life.

This is a part of his job during his job.

And I could be wrong, but I don't think Cano says "I've worked hard, I'm gonna let myself relax on this ground out because I deserve it" every time he doesn't run hard to first.

I don't know why you imagine him saying it every time. He must be aware that some players hustle to first on outs and that he doesn't.

[JL25and3]

http://riveraveblues.com/

Time to sell high.

The time to sell high would have been two years ago, not going into his walk year.

[Abe Frohman]

Ok ... lets take this with a grain of salt but ...

a guy i currently work with is really connected within the Yankee Organization, lots of friends on the inside and he says word is that down the stretch of this season, Robbie was told by the organization to stop whatever it was that he was doing as far as PED's and what not.

I'm thinking this is probably stemming from the Melky fiasco, but who knows ?

i'd hate to think that Cano was a PED user, but these days you just never know.

Plus, how would the team catch wind of this and alert Cano without MLB knowing anything ?

Weird ... but these days u never know whos using. The kid is on the cusp of his payday, and im sure he'd like to get every last dollar he can. Putting together his best numbers across the board would certainly help.

[grizy]

Well, it's DR.

Judging by what I have read about the steroids situation in DR, you probably can test positive for something just for using a public gym.

[nnysiny]

Ok ... lets take this with a grain of salt but ...

a guy i currently work with is really connected within the Yankee Organization, lots of friends on the inside and he says word is that down the stretch of this season, Robbie was told by the organization to stop whatever it was that he was doing as far as PED's and what not.

I'm thinking this is probably stemming from the Melky fiasco, but who knows ?

i'd hate to think that Cano was a PED user, but these days you just never know.

Plus, how would the team catch wind of this and alert Cano without MLB knowing anything ?

Weird ... but these days u never know whos using. The kid is on the cusp of his payday, and im sure he'd like to get every last dollar he can. Putting together his best numbers across the board would certainly help.

irresponsible posting at its worst

[awy]

last time i checked the word on the street still says israel bombed the wtc, so you know the word on the street is a really legit source of info

[snapple]

irresponsible posting at its worst

im with this guy

[Abe Frohman]

irresponsible posting at its worst

last time i checked the word on the street still says israel bombed the wtc, so you know the word on the street is a really legit source of info

Which is why i said, take this with a grain of salt.

i never said i believed what i heard. not once did i say this is true or this is really what happened. its just specualtion, what people are saying. its just a point of discussion. That is what we're doing here, isnt it ? talking baseball ? whats wrong with bringing up something i heard from a guy who has friends within the NYY hierarchy ?

Talking baseball here on this forum, and talking baseball at a bar over a beer is pretty much the same thing in my book.

[grizy]

I would be surprised if the Yankees didn't say something to Robbie just to be sure.

[THEBOSS84]

I would be surprised if the Yankees didn't say something to Robbie just to be sure.

If they suspected he does in fact use PEDs, now is not the time to tell him anything. Let him mash like a monster in 2013 and let him becomes someone else's problem going forward.

[SatchelPaigeYankee]

Which is why i said, take this with a grain of salt.

i never said i believed what i heard. not once did i say this is true or this is really what happened. its just specualtion, what people are saying. its just a point of discussion. That is what we're doing here, isnt it ? talking baseball ? whats wrong with bringing up something i heard from a guy who has friends within the NYY hierarchy ?

Talking baseball here on this forum, and talking baseball at a bar over a beer is pretty much the same thing in my book.

in contemporary society, information/data/knowledge is only considered real if it is sanctioned by the state or a major corporation (major media). what everyday people know and pass to each other via the grapevine is always considered illegitimate. it's sad, disempowering, and a general devaluing of subaltern (regular people/lower class) systems of thought. you make a good point about this forum being essentially talkin baseball at a bar, but people try hard to convince themselves that it's not, because of the social dynamics I suggested above.


in response to what you said:
that's a crazy thought. it's at times easy/convenient to forget that Cano's mL stats don't compare at all with his major league stats. they were pretty much the same as Melky's in the minors (tho they played diff positions, of course). i, like everyone else here, is hoping that ur friend heard it from someone who made it up.

[SatchelPaigeYankee]

If they suspected he does in fact use PEDs, now is not the time to tell him anything. Let him mash like a monster in 2013 and let him becomes someone else's problem going forward.

i think the suggestion was that the Yanks knew that he was gonna run into some "random" testing or something. I wouldn't be surprised if word gets around via backchannels. this is a business, after all

[awy]

i'm for subaltern media. just need more investigative resources and higher epistemic standards. i mean, it's a legit discussion, but even without the bias against non'mainstream' info it is still suffering from severe lack of specifics.

[grizy]

[Chacon]

Who wants to bet that post blows up on the Internet? It's what happened last month. A troll on reddit made up a rumor and then a beat reporter tweeted it as fact

[mhmajp]

Who wants to bet that post blows up on the Internet? It's what happened last month. A troll on reddit made up a rumor and then a beat reporter tweeted it as fact

Maybe this a NYY org plot to drive down his value and scare off other suitors.

[teknetic]

The time to sell high would have been two years ago, not going into his walk year.

Yea, I was definitely not being serious.

those are outliers.

Cano also did well with RISP in those two years.

In every other year, he was a significantly worse hitter in the playoffs and with RISP.

You're taking out two out of the six years he's been in the playoffs. Those years still happened, just like this year did. Point sorta stands.

[grizy]

Yea, I was definitely not being serious.



You're taking out two out of the six years he's been in the playoffs. Those years still happened, just like this year did. Point sorta stands.

I am saying chances are (as in, statiscally speaking) it's not an accident Cano is usually worse hitter with RISP and in playoffs.

There is quite a bit of data to suggest he has a different approach with RISP, and most likely in the playoffs. Namely, he seems to try harder to hit for contact instead of power with RISP... and playoffs. Fewer LDs, more BBs, more Ks, and wayyyy fewer HR/FB. Career, 10.1% with RISP, 15.5% with nobody on. 2012, 25% HR/FB with nobody on, 16.7% with RISP. These all suggest he's doing exactly what some want him to do... be patient and hit for contact when there are RISP.

It obviously screws with him because even with diminished power and higher walks, he has all around ................ty numbers with RISP, relative to his overall. FG and BB doesn't have the data. But my guess is he does the same thing when in slump (or playoffs for that matter) just trying to buy a hit.

Except 2011 and 2010, when he apparently approached those PAs the same way, with similar LD%s and HR/FBs whether a runner was on base or not.