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  1. #1
    Re2pect Hitman23's Avatar
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    Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    I have discovered something we may or may not be interested in. I'm bringing it up to toss around but let's see where it goes.

    1) When this league was at it's inception there was a lack of offense from guys up the middle. We tried to help this by adding Double Plays Truned (DPT). However the game has evolved. We have a good amount of players up the middle that keep up with all other positions just based on hitting. The defensive stats are just gravy now. I say we eliminate them altogether. This does not really affect anyone as far as who they have invested in or kept. If you're keeping a 2B or SS you're doing it for their offense. Not DPT.

    2) I have recently discovered that in standard points leagues Stolen Bases (SB) are a plus 2, not plus 1. Not only does this help make guys like Bourn and Gardner and Reyes much more valuable and potent, it makes 5 tool players even more potent.

    I found this out by someone bringing it up and after researching it turns out we are behind that stat in it's evolution in points leagues.

    What do you guys think?
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  2. #2
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    I'm good with taking away DPT, it's not pointless, but I'm not sure what value there is tracking and awarding on that stat. I would need to do some more analysis, or E can, but if it does not significantly undervalue the MI positiins compared to CI, OF then I'm ok.

    I personally prefer 1 point for SB, guys like Bourn should be what they are, replacemenys for better scoring players, in fantasy world only. Not to undervalue their skills in the real world for defense and the scare factor on the basepatha.

  3. #3
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    I like 1 point per SB, if only because hits are one point per base.

  4. #4
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Well I don't think the DPT are pointless, but the reason why we put it as a stat is no longer relevant. I don't mind keeping it though. It only helps and makes MI that more potent.

  5. #5
    Re2pect Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    I like 1 point per SB, if only because hits are one point per base.
    True. But it's also harder to steal a base then to hit a single. Think about it. We have guys with 200 hits but guys that steal 50 bases are studs in that cat.

  6. #6
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    True. But it's also harder to steal a base then to hit a single. Think about it. We have guys with 200 hits but guys that steal 50 bases are studs in that cat.
    That's not because it's harder, it's because you can only steal in certain game situations.
    Also - if we do bump the steals to 2, do we also increase the CS penalty?

    As for DPT - I have always been an advocate of including more defense in fantasy, so I am against taking the DPT's out.

  7. #7
    Re2pect Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Maybe I worded that incorrectly.

    It maybe situational, however it is a tremendous skill and weapon to have. Not all players can turn a single or a walk into a double. Not all players can cause havoc for a pitcher. Putting yourself in scoring position with something you can do yourself is just a weapon.

    Guys like Bourn, Kemp, Gardner, Reyes.... they probably have a green light all the time and can use their weapon. They control it and should be rewarded. Bourn in a roto league is elite. On his team he's a stud. In our league he is mediocre. Same can be said about Gardner, although he may not be a stud just yet on the Yanks. He will be eventually though imo.

    As far as the scoring, in our league it's SB-CS so it's the net total you get rewarded for. We could change a CS to -2 but we'd have to split the scoring up.

  8. #8
    Re2pect Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    I'm not so against defensive rewards, but I noticed that the reasons we implemented them are no longer relevant. If no one wants to change them it's fine with me.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Here is a very deatiled explanation that a friend of mine came up with in a league that is nearly identical to ours. The only difference is ER is -1 instead of -2 for pitchers and 1B gets .5 for a DPT:

    NOW... The biggest flaw in the DPT's is that it only helps SS and 2b's at almost an avg of 90 pts. 3rd base is minimum with that (25pts) and it gives a free 50pt minimum to 1B's. It does NOTHING for the OF's and makes them less valuable. If you happen to have a SS playing in the OF on your team, you get hurt bc you get no credit. OF assists are minimal and are squashed by Errors. ... I hate defensive stats for fantasy baseball personally. It will then give a still big advantage to pitchers if it goes. BUT.......

    As well as the 2pt stolen base, I wouldnt mind another way to bump up Hitters , a bit if we move this out. One Idea is all Hits can be worth .5pts then make a single+1, double+2, Triple+3, HR+4...in essence 1B=1.5 2B=2.5 etc... now a player like Ichiro would get that REAL VALUE he deserves.

    ie: in 2010 he LED THE LEAGUE w 214 Hits and added 42 SB's and batted .314 somehow he is only the 65th best bat and 145th best scorer overall w 472 pts in our league. 17.5 pts more than Jeff Keppinger and 5 pts more than Miguel Tejada- and 2 points behind Matt Capps WTF?! .....

    ...Now how will this work

    2010 Ichiro had 472pts - 7pts OF Assists + 4pts from errors =469 now add 214*.5 for hits = 112 pts and 42 pts for SBs... 469+112+42=623 pts
    Jeff Keppinger had 453.5pts- 75DPTs +4pts errors = 382pts add back hits 148*.5=74 +4pts for SB's... 382.5+74+4==460.5pts total

    Ichiro goes from 17.5 pts better than keppinger to a realistic 162.5 pts better. Keppinger loses his DPTs but still gains a few points so it won't kill the Middle IF. If he was a base stealer it would have been a better boost. ........................

    How it changes projections from CBS for 2012 who do not take DPT's into acct............
    68th ranked SP Bronson Arroyo 549pts> Dan uggla 455+90 DPT's (avg 2B)= 545> Matt Kemp 543pts- Makes no sense! UNREAL!
    ......Change to this system........
    Add To Kemp's 2012 projection of 543pts + (Hits 176*.5) 88 + 36(SB*2 )= 667> Uggla 545-90+74+3=532> Arroyo 549pts- (101ER *2)= 449 pts if you keep ER @ -1 its still 549
    .....
    Ichiro goes from 418 to 554pts
    Neil walker from 422+90DPT=512pts to 511 pts ....so now Ichiro become more valuable than Walker but walker keeps same value..

    How it effects the actual top point getters from 2011
    1b Cabrera 721 pts - 45 total defensive pts + 98pts (.5*hits) +2 sb = 774 pts ....gain of +53
    1B Howard 9th ranked 568 - 46 Def + 70H + 1SB =593 pts..... +25
    OF Matt kemp 693pts - 11pts def + 97hits + 40 SBs = 819pts ........+126
    OF McCutchen 12thrank 530pts- 2 Def pts + 74H +23SB =625............+95
    OF Willingham 29th 439 - 2DEF + 60H +4SB =501 ..............+62
    OF Ichiro 30th 438 - 8Def + 92H +40SB = 562............. +124
    OF Michael Bourn 24th 474- 5 +96H +61SB= =626.............+152
    2b Kinsler 678- 92 DEF pts + 79H + 30 SB = 705 pts...... +27
    2B Kendrick #9 485 - 73DEF + 76H + 18SB = 506 ......... +21
    SP Verlander 975 pts - 67 ERs (ER -2) = 908............ -67
    SP Sabathia 8th Ranked 783 - 79 ER = 704...........-79
    SP Latos 30th 603 - 75ER =528............-75

    Now from all of this I see that Kemp Should have been the highest scoring player and wasn't. But an almost 40/40 season should be why he is, and not cabrera catching 117 balls at first for a DPT. The system we currently use leans very heavy on infielders and HR hitters. This helps guys with high Averages and the ability to steal. It also helps the outfielders who get Barely any Fielding points. It makes Ichiro and Michael Bourn elite OFs and more valuable than Jeff francouer, Willingham, kendrick and markakis, etc... and as it should be.

    If I were to suggest this, I might keep ER @ minus 1, or just make wins +7(standard) or even QS +7 instead to keep SP points more in line but it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I wouldnt recommend a change like this for a couple of years, unless it was unanimous. There me be some protests to it, but it is so much better and realistic and gives credit for actual offense and not double play infielders, the way Fantasy Baseball was meant to be played!

  10. #10
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    I'm opposed to removing the DPT scoring, because of the exact reasons given in that quote - removing it rewards the hunt for players who qualify at a position, but don't actually play it, like an SS who really plays OF. To me, that's not a cheat, but it is gaming the system a bit. In the real world, part of a player's value is defensive, and that's more true for SS and 2B than OFs, so they should get more defensive points.

    If you have Robinson Cano on the Yankees, and stick him at LF in real life, he's adding less value to your team. He doesn't contribute as much to winning games. So I don't see why he should score the same number of points, if you go purely by offense.

    What I do agree with is removing DPT for 1B and U, however. They aren't defense-valuing positions, so rewarding them for that is a bit bogus.

    The stolen bases seems harder, because speed is valuable, and difficult to quantify. Again, I disagree with the quote, in that it seems to assume that Ichiro must be undervalued because he gets a lot of singles and stolen bases, rather than appreciating that the fact he got 214 hits in 2010 doesn't mean he was one of the best players in the league.

    I'd be okay with bumping SB-CS to 2 as a proxy for general basepath speed and disruption (though presumably a faster baserunner also scores more runs, and gets rewarded for it) - but I don't agree that we should only reward offense from our position players and not defense. "The way Fantasy Baseball was meant to be played!" is not necessarily the best way to play fantasy baseball, in my opinion.

    Fight the orthodoxy!

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    Last edited by Saxmania; 03-30-12 at 05:07 AM.

  11. #11
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Util guys do not get credit for DPT. Neither do 1B.
    I favor the DPT for 1B, if only because of the occasional 3-6-3 DP.

    DPT is only worth 0.5 points, so it's not a game-changer

    As far as changing value for SP, my only argument is to eliminate the K bonus. I have hated it since day one, and still think it should be eliminated. As I have argued before, most pitcher K's are worthless, and at most are 25% more valuable than a non-K out.

  12. #12
    2013 NYYFans Fantasy Champ miko's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    What he said.....except the 2 points for a SB. Sorry Mr. Bourn, you are not "da man"! You are a fourth OF at best! (Sorry to whoever owns him and is starting him in this league).

  13. #13
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    As far as changing value for SP, my only argument is to eliminate the K bonus. I have hated it since day one, and still think it should be eliminated. As I have argued before, most pitcher K's are worthless, and at most are 25% more valuable than a non-K out.
    Didn't we have a poll for this last season and it didn't go through?

  14. #14
    2013 NYYFans Fantasy Champ miko's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    As far as changing value for SP, my only argument is to eliminate the K bonus. I have hated it since day one, and still think it should be eliminated. As I have argued before, most pitcher K's are worthless, and at most are 25% more valuable than a non-K out.
    Don't you have a Mayan calandar or a Doomsday clock to follow? A "K" is a standard pitching stat. Let's take away walks from hitters then because they got more non hittbale pitches.......oh hey, there's a dead horse, let's go beat it some more!

    Love ya E!

  15. #15
    2013 NYYFans Fantasy Champ miko's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    DPT's stay!

  16. #16
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by miko View Post
    Don't you have a Mayan calandar or a Doomsday clock to follow? A "K" is a standard pitching stat. Let's take away walks from hitters then because they got more non hittbale pitches.......oh hey, there's a dead horse, let's go beat it some more!

    Love ya E!
    "Standard" Stats are HR, RBI, R, SB, BA and W, ERA, WHIP, K, Sv.

    We don't reward BA or track ERA and WHIP. So we could get rid of the "K" bonus, since we already reward for the out...

  17. #17
    2013 NYYFans Fantasy Champ miko's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    "Standard" Stats are HR, RBI, R, SB, BA and W, ERA, WHIP, K, Sv.

    We don't reward BA or track ERA and WHIP. So we could get rid of the "K" bonus, since we already reward for the out...
    Then let's get rid of other stuff too. This isn't your standard 5x5 league and I think the extra stats help since the draft pool is so spread out. If you want to start a 5x5 league I would be happy to join. I just think for this particular format it works. And just curious, did you adjust your Mayan calandar for all the Leap Years?

  18. #18
    2013 NYYFans Fantasy Champ miko's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    "Standard" Stats are HR, RBI, R, SB, BA and W, ERA, WHIP, K, Sv.

    We don't reward BA or track ERA and WHIP. So we could get rid of the "K" bonus, since we already reward for the out...
    And, we do account for BA sort of. Not as heavily weighted as slugging of course.
    And, we do actually have a round about way of accounting for ERA and WHIP.....

  19. #19
    2013 NYYFans Fantasy Champ miko's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    And yes, I am PMS'ing by the way!

  20. #20
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by miko View Post
    Then let's get rid of other stuff too. This isn't your standard 5x5 league and I think the extra stats help since the draft pool is so spread out. If you want to start a 5x5 league I would be happy to join. I just think for this particular format it works. And just curious, did you adjust your Mayan calandar for all the Leap Years?
    I'm already in 6 leagues this year, I'm not starting another one!

    Missed ya at the auction last weekend. It was a blast!

  21. #21
    2013 NYYFans Fantasy Champ miko's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    I'm already in 6 leagues this year, I'm not starting another one!

    Missed ya at the auction last weekend. It was a blast!
    Ya, well apparently the world revolves around Michael Isaacs. That's right, I said it! I suggested a different weekend. You would think the draft could be held around the guy travelling 14 hours to be there but I guess I don't have enough pull there yet.

  22. #22
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by miko View Post
    Ya, well apparently the world revolves around Michael Isaacs. That's right, I said it! I suggested a different weekend. You would think the draft could be held around the guy travelling 14 hours to be there but I guess I don't have enough pull there yet.
    Isaacs is a big guy. Funny too. Was sitting next to him during the auction. Me, him and Hennessy were cracking up all night.

  23. #23
    Re2pect Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    My real reason for posting that quote was the SB argument, not the DPT. I prob should have said that. lol

  24. #24
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxmania View Post
    I'm opposed to removing the DPT scoring, because of the exact reasons given in that quote - removing it rewards the hunt for players who qualify at a position, but don't actually play it, like an SS who really plays OF. To me, that's not a cheat, but it is gaming the system a bit. In the real world, part of a player's value is defensive, and that's more true for SS and 2B than OFs, so they should get more defensive points.

    If you have Robinson Cano on the Yankees, and stick him at LF in real life, he's adding less value to your team. He doesn't contribute as much to winning games. So I don't see why he should score the same number of points, if you go purely by offense.
    You have given me a reason to keep the DPT a stat. It is something I hadn't considered. Using an OFer as a 2B (like when Soriano qualified) you shouldn't get the defensive points. He's not going to get them. So instead of you thinking you had a 40/40 guy at second you realize you're losing a ton of points for a guy that would have played 2B and gotten DPT points.

  25. #25
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    Re: Scoring change ideas to toss around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    I like 1 point per SB, if only because hits are one point per base.
    ^ This.

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