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  1. #101
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    Applies with Boston also. Pretty sure Laptop got more hype than Lester who had command issues and didn't throw as hard as he currently does.
    His putrid start this year aside, Buchholz has actually pitched well -- his problem has been staying healthy and making his starts.

    I do think there is something to be said for a guy not being rushed at getting more time at each level, though.
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  2. #102
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Bryan Hoch ‏ @BryanHoch
    "If you ask me who the best pitcher in the world is, I'd say me."
    - Ivan Nova
    Have to respect taking the ball every fifth day with that mentality.

  3. #103

    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Nova has been unreal. His confidence is amazing.

  4. #104

    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Looks like he's building on his 2nd half of the season last year with the improved K and BB rates. Great to see, he could be a 2 if that continues.
    "We understand that John Henry must be embarrassed, frustrated and disappointed by his failure in this transaction. Unlike the Yankees, he chose not to go the extra distance for his fans in Boston."

  5. #105
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Nice job today.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  6. #106
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    When Pettitte comes back he'll probably move into the #3 spot in the rotation. When Pineda gets back, my guess is he and Nova will be taking up the 4th and 5th spots.

    Sabathia
    Kuroda
    Pettitte
    Pineda
    Nova

    Nice rotation. I'm very excited.

    Hughes = 6th starter, long reliever.

    Phelps, Warren, Mitchell = emergency starters, long relievers

    Banuelos & Betances = full season in Scranton, opportunity knocks in 2013

    That's 6 starters that can replace Kuroda and Pettitte, if necessary. Nice depth.

    Garcia = trade bait
    "Somebody once asked me if I ever went up to the plate trying to hit a home run. I said, 'Sure, every time.'" -- Mickey Mantle

  7. #107
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    He's the only 3-0 pitcher in the AL. Colon was 3-0 but is now 3-1. Nova leads the AL Cy Young Predictor.

  8. #108
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    His breaking stuff is unbelievable.
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    It is never too late to be what you might have been.
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  9. #109
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Very pleased with the K/BB rates ever since he was demoted last year. I remember wondering if that demotion was a good idea since he was pitching pretty well at the time... But he's been tremendous since then.

  10. #110
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    The best thing about this is that I'm not yet convinced he's pitching at his best.

    Nova is the prime example of how we should have used Hughes and Joba. Leave them alone. Keep them in the rotation.
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  11. #111
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    The best thing about this is that I'm not yet convinced he's pitching at his best.

    Nova is the prime example of how we should have used Hughes and Joba. Leave them alone. Keep them in the rotation.
    Never mind that plenty of pitchers have moved in and out of the bullpen successfully. Never mind that young pitchers with increasing workloads who have never been in the bullpen get hurt and have issues all the time. This example of 2 pitchers versus 1 pitcher is conclusive evidence of how every young pitcher should be handled.

  12. #112
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    I can't wait for the matchup against Verlander on Friday.
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  13. #113
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    The best thing about this is that I'm not yet convinced he's pitching at his best.

    Nova is the prime example of how we should have used Hughes and Joba. Leave them alone. Keep them in the rotation.
    You mean except for the times they did have Nova come out of the bullpen? And when they kicked him out of the rotation for a spell in spite of him pitching well? I think it's actually just an example of a young, poised pitcher whose stuff just improved. His slider has emerged and his fastball seems to have more life to it and is more effective given that he is able to keep them from sitting red and getting them to chase.

    Quote Originally Posted by K-W View Post
    Never mind that plenty of pitchers have moved in and out of the bullpen successfully. Never mind that young pitchers with increasing workloads who have never been in the bullpen get hurt and have issues all the time. This example of 2 pitchers versus 1 pitcher is conclusive evidence of how every young pitcher should be handled.
    Kind of my reaction, too. Plus, he never reached mega-prospect status and was pretty much unheralded except by several of the folks here that follow the minors particularly closely. But he was often mentioned in trade talks. He's a good pitcher, and it's not simply because he was "left in the rotation."

  14. #114
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by K-W View Post
    Never mind that plenty of pitchers have moved in and out of the bullpen successfully. Never mind that young pitchers with increasing workloads who have never been in the bullpen get hurt and have issues all the time. This example of 2 pitchers versus 1 pitcher is conclusive evidence of how every young pitcher should be handled.
    Joba and Hughes weren't put in the 'pen to break them in. They were pushed back and forth through impatience.

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    You mean except for the times they did have Nova come out of the bullpen? And when they kicked him out of the rotation for a spell in spite of him pitching well? I think it's actually just an example of a young, poised pitcher whose stuff just improved. His slider has emerged and his fastball seems to have more life to it and is more effective given that he is able to keep them from sitting red and getting them to chase.

    Kind of my reaction, too. Plus, he never reached mega-prospect status and was pretty much unheralded except by several of the folks here that follow the minors particularly closely. But he was often mentioned in trade talks. He's a good pitcher, and it's not simply because he was "left in the rotation."
    They moved him down to triple A, they didn't keep swapping him between the 'pen and the rotation.
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  15. #115
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    Joba and Hughes weren't put in the 'pen to break them in. They were pushed back and forth through impatience.
    You can disagree with something without misrepresenting it. They were both put in the pen initially as a means of developing them. Only Joba was moved back into the pen for strange reasons.

    Regardless there is no reason to conclude that this had anything to do with their performance or injuries. You have no idea what effect if any it had on them. Just because that particular aspect of their careers was a hot topic on an internet forum doesn't make it more significant than all the other factors, factors like skill, mechanics, physiology, dedication to workouts etc that we know very well contribute to performance and injury risk. All these factors differ athlete to athlete.

    Until you have shown that being moved to or from the bullpen has this effect on pitchers, something that would be born out all over baseball not just with these 3 cherry-picked pitchers, there is no reason to think it is a likely culprit in any individual case. Never mind a black and white rule for all young pitchers.

  16. #116
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    Joba and Hughes weren't put in the 'pen to break them in. They were pushed back and forth through impatience.



    They moved him down to triple A, they didn't keep swapping him between the 'pen and the rotation.
    Not sure I agree with that.

    Joba ABSOLUTELY was put in the pen to break him in. With his innings limits and his dominance of three levels of minor league ball in '07, their development plan (right, wrong or indifferent) was to let him come up and dominate ML hitters for a few innings.

    Hughes hasn't been moved back and forth really. He lost his rotation spot once, and rather than send him back to the minors where he had nothing to prove, they let him relieve and he caught fire. After the season, they went back to plan A. Don't really have much of an issue with that.

  17. #117
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Not sure I agree with that.

    Joba ABSOLUTELY was put in the pen to break him in. With his innings limits and his dominance of three levels of minor league ball in '07, their development plan (right, wrong or indifferent) was to let him come up and dominate ML hitters for a few innings.

    Hughes hasn't been moved back and forth really. He lost his rotation spot once, and rather than send him back to the minors where he had nothing to prove, they let him relieve and he caught fire. After the season, they went back to plan A. Don't really have much of an issue with that.
    On Joba, I think they had the right idea in '07. I think they screwed up in '08 when they started him in the bullpen and then stretched him out on the Major League roster to put him in the rotation. He should have started in the rotation and then moved to the bullpen once he was reaching his innings limit, basically '07 again, except he was probably ready to start at the Major League level (after all, he looked really good as a starter in '08 once he was fully stretched out and before he walked off the mound in Arlington). Stretching Joba out at the Major League level was just stupid.

    I agree that Phil had nothing left to prove at the Minor League level. However, isn't there a belief that the bullpen caused him to lose the feel for his curve since he easily got by with just the fastball? At the time, there's no way to know the bullpen would kill his curve, but hindsight being 20/20, if the bullpen did kill his curve, perhaps it wasn't the best move.

  18. #118
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Petey View Post
    On Joba, I think they had the right idea in '07. I think they screwed up in '08 when they started him in the bullpen and then stretched him out on the Major League roster to put him in the rotation. He should have started in the rotation and then moved to the bullpen once he was reaching his innings limit, basically '07 again, except he was probably ready to start at the Major League level (after all, he looked really good as a starter in '08 once he was fully stretched out and before he walked off the mound in Arlington). Stretching Joba out at the Major League level was just stupid.

    I agree that Phil had nothing left to prove at the Minor League level. However, isn't there a belief that the bullpen caused him to lose the feel for his curve since he easily got by with just the fastball? At the time, there's no way to know the bullpen would kill his curve, but hindsight being 20/20, if the bullpen did kill his curve, perhaps it wasn't the best move.
    Who knows if what they did in '08 was the proper move. Seemed logical to me, so that you'd have him starting games later in the year - and hopefully in the playoffs. Not sure how much difference it would have made to invert that process.

    As far as Phil goes, I wasn't saying moving to the pen didn't affect him. I honestly don't know. More responding to the "moved him back and forth" comment. They didn't really do that. He was always viewed as a starter by the organization. They moved him to the pen when he pitched his way out of the rotation rather than send him to AAA. In spite of elite pen production, the plan was for him to be a starter all along. I don't see that as "moving him back and forth" at least not in the same context as what happened with Joba.

  19. #119
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Once again I believe that we have a young star that truly believes in himself, that he can and will get major batters to swing and miss at his above average stuff. I like what I'm seeing with Nova, who's eager to show us that he fears no team or hitter no matter the situation.

    I just hope that he continues to take pitching serious, and that he likes the Yankees as much as they like him. My belief is that if he's able to maintain his 96mph fastball, that he'll be the Yankee ace in the not too distant future...

  20. #120

    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NoodleRay View Post
    Once again I believe that we have a young star that truly believes in himself, that he can and will get major batters to swing and miss at his above average stuff. I like what I'm seeing with Nova, who's eager to show us that he fears no team or hitter no matter the situation.

    I just hope that he continues to take pitching serious, and that he likes the Yankees as much as they like him. My belief is that if he's able to maintain his 96mph fastball, that he'll be the Yankee ace in the not too distant future...
    The ace of the Yankees' staff should be American, not Dominican.
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  21. #121
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Who knows if what they did in '08 was the proper move. Seemed logical to me, so that you'd have him starting games later in the year - and hopefully in the playoffs. Not sure how much difference it would have made to invert that process.

    As far as Phil goes, I wasn't saying moving to the pen didn't affect him. I honestly don't know. More responding to the "moved him back and forth" comment. They didn't really do that. He was always viewed as a starter by the organization. They moved him to the pen when he pitched his way out of the rotation rather than send him to AAA. In spite of elite pen production, the plan was for him to be a starter all along. I don't see that as "moving him back and forth" at least not in the same context as what happened with Joba.
    A mistake they made was bringing Joba back as a reliever late in 2008 after his injury. I mean...what was the point of that? The team was out of contention. Now all of a sudden after a shoulder issue, you are transitioning him into a reliever again in games that dont matter? Never understood that at all.

    He wasnt bad as a starter in 2009 either. I mean for his first full year as a starter? He did just fine...I was happy with his season. He tailed off late which isnt a surprise considering he never threw that many innings in a season. It annoys me that so many uneducated fans view him as a "failed starter". He was never really given a fair chance. If anything, the move in retrospect should have been to keep Hughes as a reliever after 2009 and keep going with Joba as a starter in 2010. Joba always had better stuff and more of an arsenal of pitches to be a successful starter (at least better stuff/arsenal then post 2007 Hughes).

  22. #122
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dabomb2045 View Post
    A mistake they made was bringing Joba back as a reliever late in 2008 after his injury. I mean...what was the point of that? The team was out of contention. Now all of a sudden after a shoulder issue, you are transitioning him into a reliever again in games that dont matter? Never understood that at all.

    He wasnt bad as a starter in 2009 either. I mean for his first full year as a starter? He did just fine...I was happy with his season. He tailed off late which isnt a surprise considering he never threw that many innings in a season. It annoys me that so many uneducated fans view him as a "failed starter". He was never really given a fair chance. If anything, the move in retrospect should have been to keep Hughes as a reliever after 2009 and keep going with Joba as a starter in 2010. Joba always had better stuff and more of an arsenal of pitches to be a successful starter (at least better stuff/arsenal then post 2007 Hughes).
    I agree with 100% of this re: Joba. Rushing him back to get a few bullpen innings out of him in a lost season after he had a shoulder issue was incredibly stupid. For a team that was so ultimately protective of that guy (Joba Rules) to go that route was asinine.

    Personally I think both Joba and Hughes should have been kept as starters, even if that meant them starting in AAA to work out a few things.

  23. #123
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    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I agree with 100% of this re: Joba. Rushing him back to get a few bullpen innings out of him in a lost season after he had a shoulder issue was incredibly stupid. For a team that was so ultimately protective of that guy (Joba Rules) to go that route was asinine.

    Personally I think both Joba and Hughes should have been kept as starters, even if that meant them starting in AAA to work out a few things.
    The team seemed afraid or unwilling to do this for some reason...and I never understood why. It felt like they were always trying to rush Hughes back to the big club.

    Joba should have started 2008 in AAA as a starter, then brought up when ready. They did the reliever to starter transition. Okay it worked. I think alot of people forget how good he was as a starter in 2008. Then he gets hurt. You shut him down the rest of the year no questions asked. He was an IMO successful starter in 2009. 2010, they have the battle for the 5th spot between Hughes and Joba...Hughes wins. Why not send Joba back to AAA to start? Let him work on his weaknesses. Keep him stretched out and ready to go if someone is hurt or struggles.

    I never have understood how they handled him both in 2008 or 2010, nor have we ever received a suitable explanation for it. Until we do (which probably will be...never) I will keep saying the Yanks totally mishandled him and gave up on him as a starter way too soon.

  24. #124

    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    Agreed Eff. The fact that Joba isn't that guy is so maddening. Someone compared Nova to Amdy the other day and the explanation was quite sensible.
    That comparison would be moi.

    Seriously tho, go peruse andy's early career stats and nova's... Eerily similar, even including the notched up k/9 rate (if i remember correctly, andy dialed it up to like 7-8/9 im his prime...). The career path is so similar that i'm pretty happy the way its turning out. Andy by and large was friggin indispensibile to the yanks.

    Btw, always been a nova fan. even last year i thot he was primed for a breakout. Then again, was an aj fan too...o well cant win them all...

  25. #125

    Re: 2012 Ivan Nova Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    Despite the stuff, I don't see this guy ever being an ace. He's a very solid, above average pitcher. He's gonna have games like this but he got through six and didn't give in.
    Pettite wasnt quite the ace for us, but he did quite well...

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