2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

[teknetic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGplQomdSl0

This is the saddest video on Youtube. I'm not pretending to be a pitching guru here, but look at how different his mechanics are back then as opposed to now. It was pretty violent (head jerking after releasing the fastball); I'm fairly certain they did that with Joba following his shoulder injury, but I can't find the article to back it up.

Still, the blame lies entirely on him. Zero fastball command.

[BRNXBMRS]

IPK was 0-1 with a 12.11 ERA last year against the AL West. just sayin

Thats because I meant the NL west!! Doh

[BRNXBMRS]

NL West.

Thank you!!!

[BRNXBMRS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGplQomdSl0

This is the saddest video on Youtube. Look at the delivery, look at the fastball. What happened

Before he popped that hammy

[MunsonMattingly]

I've always felt Hughes was a bullpen guy. He seems more confident out there and it's the only place he's had steady success. If they can send him down for a short time maybe that would do him some good?

[AuroraBomberalis]

So all scouting and development is 95% luck?

Really...are you really going with that?

Absolutely. If it wasn't there'd be a lot more successful 1st round picks. But there are tons of late round picks that are scattered randomly around baseball.

Talent is talent. Some guys have it to begin with, some guys develop it over time, but 95% of the time it's the player himself who finds it or doesn't find it, and the player himself who is responsible for his success.

There are the occasional (5% = 1/20) players who are either brilliantly scouted or brilliantly coached to turn them into something. The other 19/20 are what they are because of their own emergence or their own indisputable talent (1st/2nd overall picks), and even they don't all work out.

[Kingofkings19]

We have yet to see how that's going to fare for their pitchers long term. He's only been implementing this philosophy for a couple years.

True but we have seen how things have gone since Cashman implemented his philosophy.

[teknetic]

Yea, they went from a team with no farm system to a top 10-15.

[NoodleRay]

You know I realize that I say a lot of things and sometimes they sound premature, but over all my record of predicting failures and success has been pretty good. To me some of these guesses are obvious, take Phil he was so successful at short term relief, that he even developed a swagger..

Still the Yankees couldn't leave well enough alone, he was blowing batters away, and making it look easy. The truth is he had failed before, an after his best work.. I know that most of us like Hughes, me included. So before we lead him to believe anything else, lets let his stuff dictate what he'll be, and what's best for Phil.

[Kingofkings19]

Get back to me when Matt Moore actually does something at the major league level.

Price #1 overall. Niemann #4 overall. That's 2/5ths of their rotation. I'm not saying they haven't gotten a lot out of a couple later round picks, but the bottom line is that 2/5th of their starting rotation is composed of guys that basically no other teams had a shot at.

Any draft picks beyond the first couple rounds are a total crap shoot. Even #1 overall picks are far from a sure thing, though it certainly helps. But let's not pretend that Tampa Bay's exceptional scouting system resulted in finding a diamond in the rough like Shields or Hellickson. Let's also not pretend that they are some product of Tampa Bay's amazing developmental system. It's 95% luck.

All I'm saying is that in a few years, Tampa Bay's lack of early first round picks is going to hamper their overall ability to field a team. Price, Niemann, Longoria, Upton ... those guys wouldn't be in a TB uni if TB didn't have perpetual 1/2/3/4 picks in the first round. Now that they don't get those any more, we'll see what other methods they have to field a team when that kind of talent pool is no longer available to them. They're going to start looking suspiciously like KC, Baltimore, Oakland, Seattle, et al if they don't come up with a better payroll.

We've see this before - this whole "good for about 5 years with no payroll" thing. In both Oakland and Seattle. Just like those two teams, TB is going to follow suit if they keep that kind of payroll. It's inevitable that eventually your "luck" wears out in terms of drafting great finds, and when you go into that draft drought, you need to pick up the slack with big time free agents or fall back off the map.

No need to pretend because they are.

Not the luck thing again.

95% luck wtf. Well then the Rays are some of the luckiest ppl on the face of the Earth.

It's like ppl are dying for the Rays to fall off so they can point and say Ha see they don't know what they're doing.

[Kingofkings19]

Yea, they went from a team with no farm system to a top 10-15.

And where are the spects that show his hard work. The farm has improved but he was the one saying for yrs that the fruits of his labor will be his starting pitching and yet so far he has failed.

[Mr.Muhozi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGplQomdSl0

This is the saddest video on Youtube. I'm not pretending to be a pitching guru here, but look at how different his mechanics are back then as opposed to now. It was pretty violent (head jerking after releasing the fastball); I'm fairly certain they did that with Joba following his shoulder injury, but I can't find the article to back it up.

Still, the blame lies entirely on him. Zero fastball command.

Watch him here in this start against the Rays back in August 2011



Then here against the O's in 09 just before he went in the bullpen when he was using the Knuckle-curve



And last in 08 when against the Jays. This was the last time we saw that slow curve which he came up with from the minors. Just look at the way it dives through the zone. And compare it to the one he has now.



Compared to now Phil just seems like a completely different person. There isn't a highlight video of him this season because of how bad he has been.

[snapple]

Whoa. That last video he looked absolutely filthy.

[NoodleRay]

Great work, there's a huge difference that's for sure! There's a lot to be said about our brain trust an others, my question is "do they ever have success" at bringing a hurt arm back to 100% or better??

[grizy]

Like I've been saying, Hughes had a good curve. I am having trouble understanding why they aren't focusing on getting that back before forcing him to learn a changeup.

[MunsonMattingly]

Like I've been saying, Hughes had a good curve. I am having trouble understanding why they aren't focusing on getting that back before forcing him to learn a changeup.

I was thinking the same but maybe it's because of the injury? A change-up is easier on the arm.

[ober0n98]

Like I've been saying, Hughes had a good curve. I am having trouble understanding why they aren't focusing on getting that back before forcing him to learn a changeup.

Completely 100% with u on this. Sigh. Phil coming up had a wicked curve. Now it just looks blah. Whynot master one before learning another? And also, why change mechanics four different times??

[False1]

I was thinking the same but maybe it's because of the injury? A change-up is easier on the arm.

I would hope not. From a "business" standpoint they shouldn't be overly concerned about taxing his arm. Its not like that approach kept him strong anyway. His time is now, or never.

[apalradio]

“I’ve got confidence in Phil,” Martin said. “I know he’s got the stuff to do it. He’s tough mentally. I don’t think his start’s as bad as mine, and I’m not too worried. So, I don’t think he is either.”

Obviously, Russell Martin knows more about Hughes than I do, but he also said that Phil was pinpoint perfect while warming up in the pen, then suddenly when the game started couldn't locate any more. Maybe if he was a little tougher mentally, that wouldn't have happened. Hughes not worried? He probably should be.

[YankeePride1967]

Watching Phil during spring training, I was hopeful that he could be a dependable 3-4 starter for us. I had given up the "Phranchise" tag and the hopes he would develop into a premier pitcher but I thought with the increased velocity and how he was throwing then he would be a decent pitcher. I was one of the ones defending him and not giving up on the hopes he would become a good pitcher but I'm starting to think I was wrong.

[YankeePride1967]

“I’ve got confidence in Phil,” Martin said. “I know he’s got the stuff to do it. He’s tough mentally. I don’t think his start’s as bad as mine, and I’m not too worried. So, I don’t think he is either.”

Obviously, Russell Martin knows more about Hughes than I do, but he also said that Phil was pinpoint perfect while warming up in the pen, then suddenly when the game started couldn't locate any more. Maybe if he was a little tougher mentally, that wouldn't have happened. Hughes not worried? He probably should be.

I normally scoff at attempts to get into player's minds and question their ability to handle things, but I have to at least wonder in Phil's case if this isn't the case.

[ojo]

Absolutely. If it wasn't there'd be a lot more successful 1st round picks. But there are tons of late round picks that are scattered randomly around baseball.

Talent is talent. Some guys have it to begin with, some guys develop it over time, but 95% of the time it's the player himself who finds it or doesn't find it, and the player himself who is responsible for his success.

There are the occasional (5% = 1/20) players who are either brilliantly scouted or brilliantly coached to turn them into something. The other 19/20 are what they are because of their own emergence or their own indisputable talent (1st/2nd overall picks), and even they don't all work out.

luck's not the right word. you're ascribing some 'blindfold/random nature' to all this.

i'd say it's more 'luck by design'. where your scouting sees something in the kid that shows he's got a good ethic to hone his skills, or shows a skillset that can be developed by the org.

[35Knucklecurve]

I normally scoff at attempts to get into player's minds and question their ability to handle things, but I have to at least wonder in Phil's case if this isn't the case.

It might explain why he appears to be a lot more comfortable coming out of the pen than starting. The pressure to be a starter, especially in the AL East, is something not everyone can tolerate. Even though there is still pressure coming in from the pen, it's a different kind. You know you'll only be out there for a certain amount of time in most cases, so you might have the confidence to let it rip more often. You rarely hear "pitch count" for relievers. If you add in now that Phil knows he's going to lose his spot in the rotation unless he turns it around in a hurry, that's even more pressure. As far as we know he's not injured, so you have to at least consider what's going on inside his head.

[DonnieTinoTex]

The slow yet profound changes in his stuff and repertoire is just another example of how this organization is ill-suited to develop pitching.

That curveball in the 08 video is something to be envied not thrown away, and it was literally thrown away.

Combine the fastball power, movement and command of the 09 video with the curve from 08 and you have a 2-3 starter, not someone that's about to be forsaken.

[Hellsing]

Occam's Razor....

The Yankees don't know how to take care of young pitchers NOR do they know how to develop them.