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  1. #301
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Please don't suck tonight Phil, ktxhbye
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  2. #302
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    I don't know why it is so hard for some to accept that Hughes is not durable, effective, or consistent enough to be a major league starting pitcher. He can potentially be very helpful out of the bullpen.

    I know he was supposed to be the next Clemens. He was a top prospect who didn't pan out- it happens more frequently than any of us would like to admit. We all need to mourn this loss and move on.
    Move on to what exactly? He's had 2 starts this season, and while the results are poor his stuff looks improved. He'll get a few more starts.

  3. #303

    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Most of the complaints with Hughes aren't just based on his 2 starts.

  4. #304
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    Most of the complaints with Hughes aren't just based on his 2 starts.
    I get that. Just not sure what "move on" means in the context of April 19, 2012. Does this mean ditch Hughes now and give Phelps his spot?

    In a sample size of 2 starts this season, I'm willing to put a little more emphasis on how his stuff has looked than the net results. Even in his last start, which ended up being a train wreck, his stuff looked VERY good early. He gave up that YS Special HR to Ianetta and it went downhill from there.

    This is an important start for him though. Phil will have to pitch extremely well from here on out to stave off a demotion to the pen as early as next month if both Pineda and Pettitte are ready. I'd still say Garcia is the first to lose his spot if I were guessing at this point.

  5. #305
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    I don't know why it is so hard for some to accept that Hughes is not durable, effective, or consistent enough to be a major league starting pitcher. He can potentially be very helpful out of the bullpen.

    I know he was supposed to be the next Clemens. He was a top prospect who didn't pan out- it happens more frequently than any of us would like to admit. We all need to mourn this loss and move on.
    There is a fan attachment to Hughes that does come from a fanbase inexperienced in seeing pitching prospects but your post isn't any more reasonable than those who would seemingly give him unlimited chances to start.

    We don't need to give him another chance and we don't need to give up on him but those are both options given the uncertainty.

  6. #306

    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I get that. Just not sure what "move on" means in the context of April 19, 2012. Does this mean ditch Hughes now and give Phelps his spot?

    In a sample size of 2 starts this season, I'm willing to put a little more emphasis on how his stuff has looked than the net results. Even in his last start, which ended up being a train wreck, his stuff looked VERY good early. He gave up that YS Special HR to Ianetta and it went downhill from there.

    This is an important start for him though. Phil will have to pitch extremely well from here on out to stave off a demotion to the pen as early as next month if both Pineda and Pettitte are ready. I'd still say Garcia is the first to lose his spot if I were guessing at this point.
    I agree, Garcia has been so bad that he's likely the first to go, judging purely on performance. Hopefully Hughes can show us something tonight.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  7. #307

    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I get that. Just not sure what "move on" means in the context of April 19, 2012. Does this mean ditch Hughes now and give Phelps his spot?

    In a sample size of 2 starts this season, I'm willing to put a little more emphasis on how his stuff has looked than the net results. Even in his last start, which ended up being a train wreck, his stuff looked VERY good early. He gave up that YS Special HR to Ianetta and it went downhill from there.

    This is an important start for him though. Phil will have to pitch extremely well from here on out to stave off a demotion to the pen as early as next month if both Pineda and Pettitte are ready. I'd still say Garcia is the first to lose his spot if I were guessing at this point.
    I think some ppl want to ditch him right lol. But I think poster is referring to moving on from him being the guy we all hoped he would be even though he is still only 25.

    I agree Garcia is on the chopping block before anyone else.

  8. #308
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    In the eyes of one scout, hughes has already shown what he is at 25 years of age.

    "For me, i don't think he has the makeup to start," the scout said. "he is a two-inning reliever who can rear back and throw his fastball."
    -espn ny

  9. #309

    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    You mean actual scouts don't know what they're talking about in addition to myself and those who have shared similar opinions on Hughes over the years?

    What I mean by "move on" is to stop living the illusion that Hughes will ever be what we all thought and hoped he'd be, and accept the reality developed from 4+ years of data of what he actually is. A relief pitcher. Who has the capability of being lethal out of the pen, BTW.

  10. #310
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    You mean actual scouts don't know what they're talking about in addition to myself and those who have shared similar opinions on Hughes over the years?

    What I mean by "move on" is to stop living the illusion that Hughes will ever be what we all thought and hoped he'd be, and accept the reality developed from 4+ years of data of what he actually is. A relief pitcher. Who has the capability of being lethal out of the pen, BTW.
    If by "what we all thought and hoped he'd be" you mean the type of projections that Hughes2.50 outlined (e.g. the next Clemens), then I don't think you'll find anyone living that illusion. Even Hughes2.50 has gone almost entirely silent. Who at this point is saying with any conviction whatsoever that he is currently more than a back of the rotation starter?

    Really my only point is that if it comes down to him or Garcia, I'd rather keep Hughes because I do see some upside. Not "what we all hoped" pre-'07, but some. I like that he is generating more swings and misses at the moment. Will be interesting to see what he does tonight.

  11. #311
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    If by "what we all thought and hoped he'd be" you mean the type of projections that Hughes2.50 outlined (e.g. the next Clemens), then I don't think you'll find anyone living that illusion. Even Hughes2.50 has gone almost entirely silent. Who at this point is saying with any conviction whatsoever that he is currently more than a back of the rotation starter?

    Really my only point is that if it comes down to him or Garcia, I'd rather keep Hughes because I do see some upside. Not "what we all hoped" pre-'07, but some. I like that he is generating more swings and misses at the moment. Will be interesting to see what he does tonight.
    If it comes down to Hughes or Garcia....
    Really - I think they're both coming out of the rotation in favor of Pettitte and Pineda.
    They'll likely trade Garcia and stick Hughes in the pen
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  12. #312
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    If it comes down to Hughes or Garcia....
    Really - I think they're both coming out of the rotation in favor of Pettitte and Pineda.
    They'll likely trade Garcia and stick Hughes in the pen
    And I would have zero problem with both results for those pitchers, assuming Pettitte has retained his ability after a year off at this age and Pineda is ready.

  13. #313
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    I heard he developed his changeup last night and plans on using it as a weapon throughout the rest of the season.

  14. #314
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    You mean that having it float up and away from the strike zone wasn't part of the development?

  15. #315
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoVaughnEatsAlot View Post
    I heard he developed his changeup last night and plans on using it as a weapon throughout the rest of the season.
    Sounds like he's given up on his curve.
    40 pitchers, ever, have an ERA+ of 130 or higher for their career. 15 have 140 or higher. 3 guys have 150 or higher - one is right at 150, the second place guy is at 154, and Mariano Rivera is at 205.

  16. #316
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    You mean that having it float up and away from the strike zone wasn't part of the development?
    No, that's his reverse changeup, it speeds up and goes up and away. He needs to abandon that pitch though, it usually gets hit hard. Oddly he throws it about 90% of the time anyway.

  17. #317

    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    If by "what we all thought and hoped he'd be" you mean the type of projections that Hughes2.50 outlined (e.g. the next Clemens), then I don't think you'll find anyone living that illusion. Even Hughes2.50 has gone almost entirely silent. Who at this point is saying with any conviction whatsoever that he is currently more than a back of the rotation starter?

    Really my only point is that if it comes down to him or Garcia, I'd rather keep Hughes because I do see some upside. Not "what we all hoped" pre-'07, but some. I like that he is generating more swings and misses at the moment. Will be interesting to see what he does tonight.
    And my point is that he's not even a good back of the rotation starter. He lacks command of more than 1-2 pitches at a time, goes 3-2 on everyone, and loses efficacy pretty quickly. He also throws 100 or so pitches by the 4th inning regularly, and so starting him typically involves not only less than efficaceous work but additionally a burning of the bullpen. There are other, and better, options for the back end of the rotation. I contend that he has far more value to the team out of the pen, a la 2009, than an a mediocre and bullpen-burning fifth starter. His greatest value as a starter would be in a trade, although the return for him now would probably not be anything of enough value to justify a trade.

  18. #318
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    And my point is that he's not even a good back of the rotation starter. He lacks command of more than 1-2 pitches at a time, goes 3-2 on everyone, and loses efficacy pretty quickly. He also throws 100 or so pitches by the 4th inning regularly, and so starting him typically involves not only less than efficaceous work but additionally a burning of the bullpen. There are other, and better, options for the back end of the rotation. I contend that he has far more value to the team out of the pen, a la 2009, than an a mediocre and bullpen-burning fifth starter. His greatest value as a starter would be in a trade, although the return for him now would probably not be anything of enough value to justify a trade.
    I really only disagree with the bolded comments, and that is in the context of the state of the rotation and pen right now. You may be right that he would ultimately be a better reliever than starter (many pitchers would), but right now the team needs a starter more than another reliever. When that changes in a few weeks, he's more than likely bullpen bound. Yes, he'd have more value in a vacuum as an elite reliever (as he was in the timeframe you reference) then as a below average back of the rotation starter. I think there are two huge assumptions there. First, that he'd go back to his '09 bullpen form automatically and second that he can't be an above average back of the rotation starter. I think Phil is fortunate that he's got a few more starts he can earn prior to the team having to make that decision. If Pettitte is Pettitte and Pineda pitches like he is capable, I'd love to see Garcia traded and Phil take Wade's spot.

  19. #319
    Trade Bait Mr.Muhozi's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    40 pitchers, ever, have an ERA+ of 130 or higher for their career. 15 have 140 or higher. 3 guys have 150 or higher - one is right at 150, the second place guy is at 154, and Mariano Rivera is at 205.

  20. #320
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Wish I could say i feel confident in Hughes tonight. I would imagine the M&M boys are licking their chops.
    [FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are.

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  21. #321
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    I watched his start vs Texas in 2007 the other day. Sigh. Makes me sad. Screw the state of Texas too btw, they killed Hughes, Joba and Wang.

  22. #322

    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    “Jack Curry ? @JackCurryYES
    Going to watch dynamic between Hughes and Martin closely. Cashman said Hughes’s pitches have been solid, but pitch choices haven’t been.”

  23. #323
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JfromJersey View Post
    Wish I could say i feel confident in Hughes tonight. I would imagine the M&M boys are licking their chops.
    I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I actually do feel relatively confident in Hughes tonight. Ultimately it's the result that matters, but so far his stuff > his box scores.

  24. #324

    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    “Jack Curry ? @JackCurryYES
    Going to watch dynamic between Hughes and Martin closely. Cashman said Hughes’s pitches have been solid, but pitch choices haven’t been.”


  25. #325
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    Re: 2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I actually do feel relatively confident in Hughes tonight. Ultimately it's the result that matters, but so far his stuff > his box scores.
    I would disagree w/this. Yes his fastball is definetly better this year, but his secondary stuff is still pretty awful. I cant help but view him as a reliever with one plus pitch at this point.

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