2012 Phil Hughes Performance Thread

[Donnybaseball72]

He is not a starting pitcher.

Put him in the pen already.

So you want two pitchers to make their first MLB starts for the Yankees within the next 5 days. Brilliant.

[peeps4iife]

So you want two pitchers to make their first MLB starts for the Yankees within the next 5 days. Brilliant.

while i don't advocate for this, can anyone really have a worse overall line than hughes (and garcia). you can't get much worse.

[LIYanks]

I still believe that Hughes will make a decent bottom-of-the-rotation starter.

If some of you can wait a full year for Pineda to come back, give Hughes a longer leash. He wasn't that bad today.

[goin for 27]

I still believe that Hughes will make a decent bottom-of-the-rotation starter.

What makes you think this? I am open to ideas, but see nothing...

[TheBamTino24]

Sure the velocity is better, but the performance still stinks.

Up until now there was always a reasonable explanation to frame Hughes' struggles and give the young pitcher the benefit of the doubt.

In 2010, he ran out of gas. The first time he was in the starting rotation at the MLB level and a huge jump in workload after coming out of the bullpen in 2009.

In 2011, he was injured. You still have to wonder the toll put on him by bouncing him into the bullpen in 2009, IMO.

In 2012, now what?

Look at his numbers. They're regressing in just about every noteworthy category during those 3 seasons. That trend should be reversed at this stage in his career. It's damn alarming.

Personally, I still do not like how Cashman has handled either Hughes or Chamberlain. I've been consistent with it on this site since it happened, so this isn't hindsight.

Pitchers used to be developed differently from HS to the Majors. But now they are built, groomed, and monitored to do certain functions. When you start bouncing them back and forth you increase the chance of them hurting themselves when they're this young and still "amping up" to prove they belong in the bigs.

Sadly, right now it's the only connection between the disappointing careers of Hughes and Chamberlain.

Let's hope they both come back to prove their talent.

[K-W]

Yah back in the good old days when pitchers weren't a huge injury risk...

[TheBamTino24]

Yah back in the good old days when pitchers weren't a huge injury risk...

It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with whether or not how Hughes and Chamberlain were handled was best possible.

Both got injured.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with whether or not how Hughes and Chamberlain were handled was best possible.

Both got injured.

Which may or may not have to do with how they were handled....

Hughes was injured twice in the majors before he even went to the bullpen

[LIYanks]

What makes you think this? I am open to ideas, but see nothing...

Blind faith in some way but Hughes is coming back from his injuries in 2011. His velocity seems to be coming back. His off-speed stuff needs more work. I see progress and I am willing to wait at least a few more games. It's not like we have better options in the minors.

[JohnnyEllis]

For Hughes, this was a gem of I'm-not-Freddy proportions.

[bomber999]

It's kind of sad that a Hughes start which fell short of a quality start by both criteria and featured patented poor command actually qualifies as "improvement". Still not good enough to be a starter by a long way.

[R.V.47]

Even if Hughes goes to the pen what is his role? The 8th inning is locked down, the 7th you could maybe make a case for him but I dont think they take it away from Soriano because of his contract. That basically leaves Hughes fighting for appearances with Corey Wade to be the guy who comes in middle innings when the yankees are losing.

OTOH he cant go on like this in the rotation. Tough decisions for Girardi and Cashman.

[flymick24]

and he has low trade value

[jcarey]

I like the strikeouts and am OK with this type of meh performance for our 5th starter.

LOL @ Jair Jurjjens of the career 4+ FIP in the NL. The guy is nothing special and had a 7.2 k/9 2.5 bb/9 in AA with Detroit while Sanchez had a 10.8 k/9 and 3.4 bb/9 at the same level. Even with injury concerns, give me the second player every time.

[jcarey]

Even if Hughes goes to the pen what is his role? The 8th inning is locked down, the 7th you could maybe make a case for him but I dont think they take it away from Soriano because of his contract. That basically leaves Hughes fighting for appearances with Corey Wade to be the guy who comes in middle innings when the yankees are losing.

OTOH he cant go on like this in the rotation. Tough decisions for Girardi and Cashman.

I hope he can at least make it through the season and get us wins 40% of the time as the 5th starter. In the playoffs he's a valuable piece even in the bullpen, especially if he can go two innings.

[just-blaze]

while i don't advocate for this, can anyone really have a worse overall line than hughes (and garcia). you can't get much worse.

Buccholz 29 inn. 40 H. 7 HR 8.69 ERA
Jimenez 28 inn. 20 BB 5 HR 5.02 ERA
Chacin 24 inn. 31 H 7 HR 7.30 ERA
Jurrjens 16 inn 30 H 5 HR 9.37 ERA

There are many more.

Im not advocating that Hughes is, could be, or would be better than any of these pitchers but it could be worse.

[apalradio]

Buccholz 29 inn. 40 H. 7 HR 8.69 ERA
Jimenez 28 inn. 20 BB 5 HR 5.02 ERA
Chacin 24 inn. 31 H 7 HR 7.30 ERA
Jurrjens 16 inn 30 H 5 HR 9.37 ERA

There are many more.

Im not advocating that Hughes is, could be, or would be better than any of these pitchers but it could be worse.

All of the above have had a track record of much better major league success, in spite of these remarkable early season struggles. What's so frustrating about Phil is his entire body of work.

[MoVaughnEatsAlot]

I still believe that Hughes will make a decent bottom-of-the-rotation starter.

If some of you can wait a full year for Pineda to come back, give Hughes a longer leash. He wasn't that bad today.

How the mighty have fallen...

[BRNXBMRS]

He pitched better.

[BRNXBMRS]

Just read it with an open mind before everyone gets nuts.

With Phil Hughes struggling, Michael Pineda injured, Yankees may have to take old school approach to developing pitchers

“I know we all baby these guys now,” one scout said, referring to young pitchers throughout baseball, “but I don’t know, maybe the Yankees take it to an extreme with the innings limits and pitch counts, and their kids never learn how to push themselves when they’re a little tired in situations where they need to get out of trouble.

“It’s not just them, but you can only protect arms so much, and sometimes it doesn’t matter at all because pitchers are going to get hurt. I just look at Hughes and Chamberlain and I can’t figure out what happened to them, and now I don’t like what I’m seeing from their two young guys (Banuelos and Betances) either.”

I think this is what a lot of people dont realize that injuries are going to happen no matter what.

Much like Chamberlain, the questions about the way the Yankees developed Hughes, moving him back and forth from the bullpen, limiting his innings, are certainly fair.

In any case, it’s one reason GM Brian Cashman’s priority of developing pitching hasn’t produced much in the way of results.

Such struggles have reignited questions about the Yankees in comparison to the success of the Texas Rangers. It is ammunition for the old-schoolers.

As team president, Hall of Famer Nolan Ryan has changed the way the Rangers develop young pitchers, pushing them to throw more than other organizations, and with the help of home-grown starters Matt Harrison and Derek Holland, the Rangers are leading the AL with a 2.81 ERA.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...#ixzz1tiYjATus

[mbn007]

Girardi should have left him in.

Agreed.

Would have been a huge confidence booster if he got that final out in the 6th. Logan has been very good though, so it was not a terrible move, and Davis hit Phil hard in his previous ABs.

[ymike673]

Agreed.

Would have been a huge confidence booster if he got that final out in the 6th. Logan has been very good though, so it was not a terrible move, and Davis hit Phil hard in his previous ABs.

Davis was 1-8 lifetime against Hughes (The home run) and 4 K's. Davis was 4-5 against Logan with a double and triple. Now 5-6.

I really would have left Hughes in. I thought he had pitched a decent game this time around.

[35Knucklecurve]

Just read it with an open mind before everyone gets nuts.

I have to agree for the most part with the scout. The Yankees aren't the only team guilty of handling young, promising pitchers like fine crystal, but the front office seems to have more say than other clubs.....or the others do and I just am not aware of it because I don't follow other teams as closely. Nolan Ryan definitely has the last word with the Rangers and as a HOF pitcher who logged a ton of innings on that arm, nobody's going to argue with him.

Yes, pitchers are going to get hurt, but if you look at it from a historical standpoint, there are just more injuries now than there were when guys went 9 innings (or more if needed) and there were 4 man rotations instead of 5. Now we're at the point where a quality start is 6 innings and 3ER or less. You've got long relievers, short relievers, set-up men and closers. Still, the injuries keep coming.

The very act of throwing a pitch puts the arm, shoulder and elbow in the most un-natural position of any athletic movement. There are 2 schools of thought that have been debated ad nauseum: the more you repeat that movement, the more your body will adapt to it; or the more your repeat that movement, the greater the chance of injury. We've seen evidence that supports either argument, with most that would seem to agree with the former coming before the 1980's. The latter - well, that's where we are now.















Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...#ixzz1tiYjATus[/QUOTE]

[ieddyi]

The innings limit isn't the cause of Phil not having effective secondary pitches

Pineda had an effective changeup by the end of ST

We can fault the Yanks development of pitchers, but the switching back and forth from the pen to starting and innings limit aren't the culprit

Some pitchers just have a low pitching IQ. It took CMW a very long time to develop a slider to go along w/ his 2 seamer

Phil's secondary stuff played well in the minors because it's easier to get by because of the quality of batters faced. Once he got to the majors, the weakness was exposed. How many years has it been since he's tried to develop effective offspeed pitches. Phil needs to take the majority of the responsibility here

[a-RobinsonCano-Fan]

Guy was 1 pitch away from going 6 and giving up 3. This board would cream themselves about how "hes back" if that were to happen.

That being said, if he could just blow somebody by with that fastball, he would be a good 5. Im still pulling for him and do think he could build on last night and take it to KC against what could be the worst team in baseball right now.