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  1. #2001
    Crow,Tony,Joe,Yogi,Riz,2 Joes Tifoso's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    My 2 cents (not taking sides):

    1. No one on the 1998 team, for example, hit more than 30 HR's

    2. The team obviously went from pitching first (Cone,Wells,El Ducque,Andy all in the starting rotation) to a one ace + lesser pitchers mentality and a get the big bat: Giambi, ARod

    I know that is an oversimplification, obviously.

    I'll tell you this, though: if this offseason consists of ridding ourselves of deadwood, picking up a good/great bat and a stud SP, I will be high-fiving about the pitcher, not the hitter (as much).
    -Lou 27 (28 in 2014)
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  2. #2002
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso View Post
    My 2 cents (not taking sides):

    1. No one on the 1998 team, for example, hit more than 30 HR's

    2. The team obviously went from pitching first (Cone,Wells,El Ducque,Andy all in the starting rotation) to a one ace + lesser pitchers mentality and a get the big bat: Giambi, ARod

    I know that is an oversimplification, obviously.

    I'll tell you this, though: if this offseason consists of ridding ourselves of deadwood, picking up a good/great bat and a stud SP, I will be high-fiving about the pitcher, not the hitter (as much).
    Uh, that team had a 116 OPS+ and a 116 ERA+. That's insane on both sides of the ball. Any claim that the best team of my lifetime (sorry, '01 Mariners) got by on steel balls and chemistry while lacking talent needs to be immediately discounted.

  3. #2003
    Crow,Tony,Joe,Yogi,Riz,2 Joes Tifoso's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Uh, that team had a 116 OPS+ and a 116 ERA+. That's insane on both sides of the ball. Any claim that the best team of my lifetime (sorry, '01 Mariners) got by on steel balls and chemistry while lacking talent needs to be immediately discounted.
    I agree completely. They are underrated because OBP isn't as sexy as the HR. I have no idea how/why the pitching is always (mostly) overlooked.

    That team was probably the 2nd or 3rd best team of all time, arguably (I would say 1939, then 1998, then 1927--I would accept 1939, 1927 then 1998 ).
    -Lou 27 (28 in 2014)
    Totus Tuus

  4. #2004
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso View Post
    I agree completely. They are underrated because OBP isn't as sexy as the HR. I have no idea how/why the pitching is always (mostly) overlooked.

    That team was probably the 2nd or 3rd best team of all time, arguably (I would say 1939, then 1998, then 1927--I would accept 1939, 1927 then 1998 ).
    Just imagine how good the 1939 team might have been with a half-decent shortstop.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  5. #2005
    Crow,Tony,Joe,Yogi,Riz,2 Joes Tifoso's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Just imagine how good the 1939 team might have been with a half-decent shortstop.

    Hahahahahahahahaha
    -Lou 27 (28 in 2014)
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  6. #2006

    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    The 90s Yankees were superior at catcher, 1B, RF, CF, and DH, younger at SS and closer, better (close) in the bullpen with much better starting pitching and had a better bench. Other than 2B and 3B (which in his mind is the biggest problem on the team lol) and maybe Ace, nothing is really better now.

    Am I wrong???

  7. #2007

    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Just imagine how good the 1939 team might have been with a half-decent shortstop.
    Cute joke, but of course the real eye-opener is that the 1939 team lost Gehrig. Imagine what could have been.

    All due respect to 1939 and 1961 and 1998, but 1927 is still the gold standard.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  8. #2008

    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Joe Girardi reaches out to A-Rod
    Yankees manager Joe Girardi and his beleaguered third baseman had a telephone conversation on Friday that was initiated by Girardi and lasted more than an hour
    http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/stor...call-goes-well




  9. #2009

    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso View Post
    My 2 cents (not taking sides):

    1. No one on the 1998 team, for example, hit more than 30 HR's

    2. The team obviously went from pitching first (Cone,Wells,El Ducque,Andy all in the starting rotation) to a one ace + lesser pitchers mentality and a get the big bat: Giambi, ARod

    I know that is an oversimplification, obviously.

    I'll tell you this, though: if this offseason consists of ridding ourselves of deadwood, picking up a good/great bat and a stud SP, I will be high-fiving about the pitcher, not the hitter (as much).
    You are right that the '98 Yankees did not have the sheer power displayed by some of the later Yankees teams - but the basic formula for winning was the same. The rotation was built around horses who you could trust in a big spot.

    The offense was centered around Jeter and Bernie, who were two of the best hitters in the game at that point. It was then supplemented with a number of very good hitters surrounding those two.

    Finally, there was a lockdown bullpen that had a nice combination of righty/lefty, multi-inning/setup guys, leading to the best closer in baseball.


    I see basically the same model in the 2012 team, it just didn't execute well enough in the postseason. CC-Pettitte-Kuroda, when healthy is one of the best 1-2-3 in baseball. The lineup was built around Cano and Teixeira, and while not as good as Jeter-Bernie, that is primarily because Tex has been a diminished player the last 2 years. Those two are then surrounded by a whole lineup of very good almost-star players. And we all know how good the bullpen is.

    I see what you're getting at as far as the '98 team being built differently, but I think when you really break it down, the philosophy for the most part remains the same. I don't see the existence of power as a problem with the lineup.

    I would peg the problem with this team on two things: low OBP and low RISP numbers. Plus, obviously a complete failure by nearly the entire team to hit at all in the playoffs. But with low OBP and low RISP, it makes manufacturing runs very difficult.

  10. #2010
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by surge511 View Post
    I would peg the problem with this team on two things: low OBP and low RISP numbers. Plus, obviously a complete failure by nearly the entire team to hit at all in the playoffs. But with low OBP and low RISP, it makes manufacturing runs very difficult.
    I agree with your '98 points. But it's kind of hard to peg their demise on low OBP when they led the AL in that department (and SLG) and put up a 118 sOPS+. They were 4th in sOPS+ with RISP (113). I know folks will come and complain about BA, and HR or nothing outcomes, but the point of getting RISP is scoring runs, and ultimately they did that with the best of them. Really only Texas was materially better last season. I also know folks will say that the numbers are meaningless because the Yankees will score 15 runs one day and then 0 the next, but I've not seen any evidence that the Yankees are wildly more inconsistent than other offenses.

  11. #2011

    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Regardless can we all agree that it's incorrect to say the current team has more (let alone much more) talent than those championship teams?

  12. #2012

    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    kind of hard to compare. are we talking about seasonal performance, career performance, or game to game status. the granularity seems to determine which side you'll take
    always reasonable

  13. #2013
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Meanwhile down in Tampa...

    IMG956598.jpg
    "Stay thirsty, my friends"

  14. #2014
    The Sausage King of Chicago Abe Frohman's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    Regardless can we all agree that it's incorrect to say the current team has more (let alone much more) talent than those championship teams?
    Individual, statistically driven talent. They put up numbers, which over the course of a 162 game season does benefit the team. Like Grandersons 43 HR's is a perfect example. Looks great on paper, does help the team, but Curtis is a one dimensional hitter.

    I'd rather have a team like those dynasty teams that could hit home runs but, could also put two out rallies together, stringing together some hits, moving runners over, hitting sac flys ... when necessary.

    The current team is ATROCIOUS at situational hitting, which is why they look like shet in the playoffs, year in n out. Swinging for the fences each and every at bat, and they get exploited for it.
    ? Can switching to Geico really save you 15 % or more on car insurance ? ? Does the postman always ring twice ?

  15. #2015

    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abe Frohman View Post
    Individual, statistically driven talent. They put up numbers, which over the course of a 162 game season does benefit the team. Like Grandersons 43 HR's is a perfect example. Looks great on paper, does help the team, but Curtis is a one dimensional hitter.

    I'd rather have a team like those dynasty teams that could hit home runs but, could also put two out rallies together, stringing together some hits, moving runners over, hitting sac flys ... when necessary.

    The current team is ATROCIOUS at situational hitting, which is why they look like shet in the playoffs, year in n out. Swinging for the fences each and every at bat, and they get exploited for it.
    Those Yankee teams went though big time playoff drouts offensively too, the reason they were better at "situational hitting" is they had better hitters. And though people like to bring up that those teams had no 30hr hitters, most of those big hits they got in the playoffs were homeruns. Everybody would rather have those dynasty teams than this one because they were superior teams in every way. The numbers show that those teams had more talent, were more productive, and were just flat out better. It's not particularly close either. If the '98 Yankees could somehow play the current Yankees, nobody who knows anything about baseball would call the 98 team an underdog.

  16. #2016
    The Sausage King of Chicago Abe Frohman's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    Those Yankee teams went though big time playoff drouts offensively too, the reason they were better at "situational hitting" is they had better hitters. And though people like to bring up that those teams had no 30hr hitters, most of those big hits they got in the playoffs were homeruns. Everybody would rather have those dynasty teams than this one because they were superior teams in every way. The numbers show that those teams had more talent, were more productive, and were just flat out better. It's not particularly close either. If the '98 Yankees could somehow play the current Yankees, nobody who knows anything about baseball would call the 98 team an underdog.
    Exactly ... i just feel as though this team lacks some of those gritty players the dynasty teams had. Players like Scott Brosius ... not a super mega star signed to a huge contract, just a guy who came to the ballpark and got the job done.

    Role players. Cashman needs to find these kinds of guys and integrate them into his strategy.

    I feel like the only role players we have on this team are Brett Gardner and Eduardo Nunez.
    ? Can switching to Geico really save you 15 % or more on car insurance ? ? Does the postman always ring twice ?

  17. #2017

    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abe Frohman View Post
    Exactly ... i just feel as though this team lacks some of those gritty players the dynasty teams had. Players like Scott Brosius ... not a super mega star signed to a huge contract, just a guy who came to the ballpark and got the job done.

    Role players. Cashman needs to find these kinds of guys and integrate them into his strategy.

    I feel like the only role players we have on this team are Brett Gardner and Eduardo Nunez.

    Like I've said a thousand times you can take stats and make them support whatever narrative you want. Anyone that knows anything about baseball will tell you the 1998 Yankees were a better team. That team also did a better job of putting the ball in play. The Moneyball crowd would have you believe that a strikeout is just another out but I strongly disagree with that theory. Its important to put the ball in play, move runners, and force the opposition to make plays.

  18. #2018

    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abe Frohman View Post
    Exactly ... i just feel as though this team lacks some of those gritty players the dynasty teams had. Players like Scott Brosius ... not a super mega star signed to a huge contract, just a guy who came to the ballpark and got the job done.

    Role players. Cashman needs to find these kinds of guys and integrate them into his strategy.

    I feel like the only role players we have on this team are Brett Gardner and Eduardo Nunez.
    What do you consider a role player though. Martin in my mind is a role player (the role being getting the most out of the pitching staff and popping a HR here and there)... Ibanez (hitting RHP), Jones (hitting LHP), Chavez (corner IF vs RHP), Epply, Rapada, Phelps, Logan all had defined roles that I believe they understand. "Grit" is difficult to quantify, but A-Rod has scrapped with variteck and tex mouths off to people all the time, Girardi is willing to stand up for his hitters and retaliate to bean balls unlike Torre... I don't see that as the problem either. I think people always want to point to character and make-up as issues because its easy to blame the players that way, but the simple, provable, tangible reason the dynasty teams were better is that they simply had better players. The talent favors those teams, ergo the results favor those teams. It's as simple as that.

  19. #2019

    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abe Frohman View Post
    Exactly ... i just feel as though this team lacks some of those gritty players the dynasty teams had. Players like Scott Brosius ... not a super mega star signed to a huge contract, just a guy who came to the ballpark and got the job done.

    Role players. Cashman needs to find these kinds of guys and integrate them into his strategy.

    I feel like the only role players we have on this team are Brett Gardner and Eduardo Nunez.
    But BTJR isn't saying the '98 team won because it contained more gritty players. It won because they were better players.


  20. #2020
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    I think people always want to point to character and make-up as issues because its easy to blame the players that way
    It's called the fundamental attribution error.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  21. #2021

    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    Regardless can we all agree that it's incorrect to say the current team has more (let alone much more) talent than those championship teams?
    It's totally incorrect. To compare the 1998 team to the 2012 team is crazy.

    Position by position can be misleading, but 98 Yankees take every position (98 Jeter over 12 Jeter), mainly in pretty wide margins, except at second base, with Cano over Knoblauch. Their rotation was better, the bullpen was better. Girardi, Raines, Chili Davis and Shane Spencer on the bench.

    Put this in perspective. Scott Brosius hit 8th generally for that team and was there for his glove. And he hit. 300 with a .371 OBP, 19 home runs and 34 doubles. And won the World Series MVP.

    It was ridiculous. It was almost like not rooting for them as much as standing in awe.

    Mainly, too, I think 'grit' and all that is mostly nonsense, but I do remember them winning the first two games in a mid season series against the Phillies and then losing by a lot...soemthing like 7 or 8 runs in the getaway game. i remember them grinding and grinding and grinding like their lives were on the line...they came back, won, and acted like their lives had won the World Series...they really were an incredibly special group who were all hitting their primes at the exact same time it seemed.

  22. #2022
    The Sausage King of Chicago Abe Frohman's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    What do you consider a role player though. Martin in my mind is a role player (the role being getting the most out of the pitching staff and popping a HR here and there)... Ibanez (hitting RHP), Jones (hitting LHP), Chavez (corner IF vs RHP), Epply, Rapada, Phelps, Logan all had defined roles that I believe they understand. "Grit" is difficult to quantify, but A-Rod has scrapped with variteck and tex mouths off to people all the time, Girardi is willing to stand up for his hitters and retaliate to bean balls unlike Torre... I don't see that as the problem either. I think people always want to point to character and make-up as issues because its easy to blame the players that way, but the simple, provable, tangible reason the dynasty teams were better is that they simply had better players. The talent favors those teams, ergo the results favor those teams. It's as simple as that.
    That may well very be why ... the players were just better.

    what im getting at is ... what does it take to put the damn ball in play ???

    is this a tool ? a skill set ? why is it that the team as currently constructed cannot for the life of them put the ball in play when needed.

    runner on 2nd, no one out.

    2nd n 3rd, one out.

    bases loaded, no one out.

    they cant even drive ONE run in ... tons of men left on base. We saw this happen all season.

    Other teams get it done sometimes in those situations. what is it about this team that prevents them from playing fundamental baseball ... putting the bat on the damn ball ?

    we've seen it for a few seasons now, and it really got ugly this past october.
    ? Can switching to Geico really save you 15 % or more on car insurance ? ? Does the postman always ring twice ?

  23. #2023
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abe Frohman View Post
    That may well very be why ... the players were just better.

    what im getting at is ... what does it take to put the damn ball in play ???

    is this a tool ? a skill set ? why is it that the team as currently constructed cannot for the life of them put the ball in play when needed.

    runner on 2nd, no one out.

    2nd n 3rd, one out.

    bases loaded, no one out.

    they cant even drive ONE run in ... tons of men left on base. We saw this happen all season.

    Other teams get it done sometimes in those situations. what is it about this team that prevents them from playing fundamental baseball ... putting the bat on the damn ball ?

    we've seen it for a few seasons now, and it really got ugly this past october.
    Perhaps we're being too cute with the situations. With men on base, they were 12% better than league average offensively. Regardless of # of outs, they struggled in "first and third" and "second and third" situations, but were 10 - 40% better than league average in all other situations, including "bases loaded", "man on second", "man on third", "first and second", etc.

    The playoffs was just a complete melt down. It wasn't that they weren't making productive outs. It's that ALL they made were outs.

    I think part of the problem truly is the benchmark. Anyone wanting this team or some near-term version of it to be like the '98 Yankees is probably going to be disappointed regardless of what they accomplish.

  24. #2024
    The Sausage King of Chicago Abe Frohman's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Perhaps we're being too cute with the situations. With men on base, they were 12% better than league average offensively. Regardless of # of outs, they struggled in "first and third" and "second and third" situations, but were 10 - 40% better than league average in all other situations, including "bases loaded", "man on second", "man on third", "first and second", etc.

    The playoffs was just a complete melt down. It wasn't that they weren't making productive outs. It's that ALL they made were outs.

    I think part of the problem truly is the benchmark. Anyone wanting this team or some near-term version of it to be like the '98 Yankees is probably going to be disappointed regardless of what they accomplish.
    Wanting any team to even resemble 98 is unfair.

    I just wish they werent so reliant on HR's and made more productive outs.

    It seems like the lineup just sits around waiting for someone to hit a bomb ... and then they go back to sleep.
    ? Can switching to Geico really save you 15 % or more on car insurance ? ? Does the postman always ring twice ?

  25. #2025
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abe Frohman View Post
    Wanting any team to even resemble 98 is unfair.

    I just wish they werent so reliant on HR's and made more productive outs.

    It seems like the lineup just sits around waiting for someone to hit a bomb ... and then they go back to sleep.
    I don't know about that. They were fifth in the league in BA, led it in OBP and SLG, were 4th in sac flies, were below league average in K's... Just because they led the league in HR (36% above league average) doesn't mean they were sitting around waiting for the homerun. Even so, as long as they're not "waiting" for long, what's wrong with that strategy?

    They absolutely (and strangely) struggled in some of the situations like you referenced above, but those were very small compared to total PA's and therefore stuck out more than they should have. They unquestionably would have performed even better if they didn't struggle in those spots, but if they didn't we'd have been talking about an epic offense rather than a very good one.

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