2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

[Yankee Tripper]

We've all seen him win games -- including key playoff games -- with his defense.

Though we all agree that his aggregate defensive metrics aren't good, I can't think of any examples where the Yankees lost a game -- particularly a game that truly mattered, in the playoffs -- where a better defensive SS would have meant a win.

I'm not saying all of this to attempt to debate your valid criticisms of Jeter's defense. I'm just trying to say, for all the talk about how he isn't a good enough defensive SS, I simply don't see how that has had any negative impact on the Yankees at the macro level (i.e., whether or not the Yankees win championships, which is the only goal that matters).

I can recall one or two games where his errors were a big part of the cause the Yanks lost playoff games. It's hardly surprising, he played in so many and had so many chances there are bound to be a few gaffs. I'm sure if Ozzie Smith played in as many playoff games as Jeter did, he'd have a memorable error or two.

But like you I remember far more playoff games where Jeter made a great play or two defensively that might have been the difference between winning and losing.

What I can't recall off hand are those ground balls the metrics say he should have gotten to but he didn't due to his suposed lack of range. Quite frankly, I really don't know how to evaluate that.

[sweet_lou_14]

I can recall one or two games where his errors were a big part of the cause the Yanks lost playoff games. It's hardly surprising, he played in so many and had so many chances there are bound to be a few gaffs. I'm sure if Ozzie Smith played in as many playoff games as Jeter did, he'd have a memorable error or two.

I can recall exactly one. When the Yankees lost Game 6 of the 2003 World Series, 2-0, the second run was unearned, caused by a Jeter error. Does that mean the Yankees would otherwise have won the game? I don't think so, but who knows. I can't think of any other example and I have a pretty good memory for this kind of stuff.

You are absolutely correct that given the very large sample of playoff games, this one error is no more than one might expect from any player. Nobody can be expected to play perfect defense.

But like you I remember far more playoff games where Jeter made a great play or two defensively that might have been the difference between winning and losing.

Everyone will of course remember the flip play in 2001. But what about the way he nailed Nick Punto at the plate during the 2009 ALDS? The incredible relay throw to nail Timo Perez at home in the 2000 World Series? Those are just off the top of my head -- and, interestingly, I'm sure these don't show up in any zone rating. He's been a difference-maker on defense in a bunch of key games.

What I can't recall off hand are those ground balls the metrics say he should have gotten to but he didn't due to his suposed lack of range. Quite frankly, I really don't know how to evaluate that.

I remember that by 2008 there were a lot of "Jeter to his left" plays and things were looking pretty bad. Then I remember a marked improvement in 2009, not only in "what my eyes see" but even in his defensive metrics. I don't believe he currently lets as many balls get through up the middle as his negative reputation would suggest.

[awy]

you don't get a good view of the field from a tv cast to judge player range, particularly in cases where a different more rangy fielder gets to the ball. there's no visible error when range is involved.

[sweet_lou_14]

you don't get a good view of the field from a tv cast to judge player range, particularly in cases where a different more rangy fielder gets to the ball. there's no visible error when range is involved.

I am sympathetic to the overall point you're trying to make, but it is actually quite easy to detect, using my television, when a ground ball passes between the shortstop and the second-base bag.

I think what the TV hides, more than anything, is an adequate appreciation of fielder positioning prior to the ball being hit. I often feel that Jeter is positioned, for whatever reason, in the hole when they could be helping defend up the middle by moving him over.

In other words, there is probably a way to make this all A-Rod's fault.

[Yankee Tripper]

I can recall exactly one. When the Yankees lost Game 6 of the 2003 World Series, 2-0, the second run was unearned, caused by a Jeter error. Does that mean the Yankees would otherwise have won the game? I don't think so, but who knows. I can't think of any other example and I have a pretty good memory for this kind of stuff.

I can't remember the exact game but I recall a brutal 2 error game in an ALDS that he had some real lazy throwing errors that lead to some early unerned runs. I can't find the fielding logs of playoff games as easily as batting logs. I want to sat Detroit a few years ago, but I could have it wrong.

But I think you and I will both agree he's been by far a net positive on the Yankees both in the regular season and post season.

[awy]

when arod first came to the yankees jeter's fielding numbers became better, prob because arod was very rangy at third.

anyway jeter is great this year and a large reason why yankees are where they are. but you can't project this out to the future and believe honestly that he won't be a liability 2 years down teh road.

[EvanJ]

I can't remember the exact game but I recall a brutal 2 error game in an ALDS that he had some real lazy throwing errors that lead to some early unerned runs. I can't find the fielding logs of playoff games as easily as batting logs. I want to sat Detroit a few years ago, but I could have it wrong.

Since you said "a few years ago," I doubt you mean last year. In 2006 against Detroit in the ALDS, Jeter committed 1 error that didn't cost the Yankees any runs. You don't need fielding logs. You can just look at box scores and play-by-play.

[Yankee Tripper]

Since you said "a few years ago," I doubt you mean last year. In 2006 against Detroit in the ALDS, Jeter committed 1 error that didn't cost the Yankees any runs. You don't need fielding logs. You can just look at box scores and play-by-play.

Yeah that was the series I thought, but memoery must be shot. There are a lot of box scores to look at over the years. I eyeballed a bunch and couldn't fine any where Jeter had 2 errors in one game so I'm probably just confused about some regular season game.

[roblyo33]

Like, virtually, every other stat in Jeter's career, his fielding % in post-season is pretty much the same as during the regular season - .980 post vs .976 reg. He is a model of consistency.

[sweet_lou_14]

when arod first came to the yankees jeter's fielding numbers became better, prob because arod was very rangy at third.

anyway jeter is great this year and a large reason why yankees are where they are. but you can't project this out to the future and believe honestly that he won't be a liability 2 years down teh road.

I agree with this.

Look, I'm a Jeter fan and I want him to play forever. Sentiment inevitably enters into my assessment of him, looking back or looking forward.

All I can do is take it year to year ... this year has been great, and if he somehow found a way to repeat in 2013, (a) we should all be thrilled and (b) so should the Yankees as he will have fully lived up to his contract. At that point I imagine it's possible there could be a negotiation between Jeter and the team around his player option -- Jeter could, I guess, ask for a two-year deal through 2015.

In the hypothetical case where Jeter has a year like this in 2013 and wants one or two more years, I honestly don't know what the Yankees should do. But I'd rather not think about that for now.

[roblyo33]

I agree with this.

Look, I'm a Jeter fan and I want him to play forever. Sentiment inevitably enters into my assessment of him, looking back or looking forward.

All I can do is take it year to year ... this year has been great, and if he somehow found a way to repeat in 2013, (a) we should all be thrilled and (b) so should the Yankees as he will have fully lived up to his contract. At that point I imagine it's possible there could be a negotiation between Jeter and the team around his player option -- Jeter could, I guess, ask for a two-year deal through 2015.

In the hypothetical case where Jeter has a year like this in 2013 and wants one or two more years, I honestly don't know what the Yankees should do. But I'd rather not think about that for now.

There's something to be said about "enjoying the moment". Jeter is having a great year and I, for one, am enjoying it immensely.

[Big_E]

FYI

Ty Cobb finished with 3821 hits before turning 39.

Hank Aaron finished with 3391 hits before turning 39.

Cobb started when he was 18.
Aaron was FT at 20.

Jeter and Rose both became FT players at age 22.

[Big_E]

Is Jeter's "range" any different on the road vs at home? In other words, does he get fewer chances at SS because the short porch at YS encourages teams to hit left handed hitters who pull the ball to the right side?

[kan_t]

Cobb started when he was 18.
Aaron was FT at 20.

Jeter and Rose both became FT players at age 22.

I think you are talking about the hit record?

[White Knight]

when arod first came to the yankees jeter's fielding numbers became better, prob because arod was very rangy at third.

anyway jeter is great this year and a large reason why yankees are where they are. but you can't project this out to the future and believe honestly that he won't be a liability 2 years down teh road.

Who cares if he is a liability? Better to have him with us.

[2JAY]

when arod first came to the yankees jeter's fielding numbers became better, prob because arod was very rangy at third.

anyway jeter is great this year and a large reason why yankees are where they are. but you can't project this out to the future and believe honestly that he won't be a liability 2 years down teh road.

So you cannot project success into the future, only failure? I find it interesting that in a year where Jeter has been nothing but a success on the field for the Yankees, that there still are posters wanting to harp on his defense in an attempt to tear him down.

[kan_t]

1) He will be with the Yankees for the next two years.

2) He may be terrible in his last year of his current contract and the chance of getting to 4000 hits is still small at this stage.

3) But what he does in the next two year won't change the fact that he will be with the Yankees for the next two years.

4) So I rather enjoy his historical season this year than think how he may suck in 2014.

[Big_E]

I think you are talking about the hit record?

Yes, and when I pointed out that Jeter should be ahead of Rose on his 39th Bday, you threw in two players who (a) are not the all-time hit kings and (b) started playing at a younger age than Jeter or Rose.

[kan_t]

Yes, and when I pointed out that Jeter should be ahead of Rose on his 39th Bday, you threw in two players who (a) are not the all-time hit kings and (b) started playing at a younger age than Jeter or Rose.

a) It means being ahead of Rose on his 39th birthday is a bit meaningless especially when you consider Rose played until 45.

b) What do starting at a younger age have to do with the number of hit?

[Big_E]

a) It means being ahead of Rose on his 39th birthday is a bit meaningless especially when you consider Rose played until 45.

b) What do starting at a younger age have to do with the number of hit?

Because they played the same number of seasons.

Rose played 24 seasons (though the last few for the only manager who would still play him); Cobb played 24 seasons, and Aaron played 23.

Comparing the age without comparing the seasons played is not a valid comparison.

[NYRangers79]

Congrats Jeter! Another 200 hit season! Anymore hits is just extra gravy to an already excellent season!

[Big_E]

Only the 6th time in ML history a player 38 or older has had at least 200 hits in a season

1) Paul Molitor, 225 hits (39)
2) Pete Rose, 208 hits (38)
3) Sam Rice, 207 hits (40)
4) Jake Daubert, 205 hits (38)
5) Sam Rice, 202 hits (38)
6) Derek Jeter, 200 hits and counting (38)

[sweet_lou_14]

"Peter Rose" ???

[Mr Coffee]

"Peter Rose" ???

You know-- Charles Hustle.

[35Knucklecurve]

Sit back and enjoy it because there's a very good chance we'll never see the likes of Derek Jeter again.