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  1. #251

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Jeter? You KNOW he has an Edge.
    LMAO.

    Thanks, Coffee. I needed that after all the trash on the forums today.
    You know they are not real pies, right?

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  2. #252

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I'd go by games played, since WAR is a counting stat and "years" aren't equal given time lost to injuries, and in particular Henderson's last few years where he should have retired.

    So Jeter's WAR per game played is .0309. Henderson's WAR per game played is .0370. Henderson has a 20% advantage there, even though Jeter hasn't (and hopefully never does) hit a period like Henderson did at the end.

    If you just look performance for Henderson up to his age 37 season, which is where Jeter finished up last year, it's .0451 - or 46% better.
    Isn't there sort of an inherent contradiction in saying WAR should only be looked at in relation to games played? If I'm fielding a team in a given year, I want to know what I can expect from a WAR perspective for the year from a given player. Because if they're not available then I have to go get the replacement.

  3. #253
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    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Isn't there sort of an inherent contradiction in saying WAR should only be looked at in relation to games played? If I'm fielding a team in a given year, I want to know what I can expect from a WAR perspective for the year from a given player. Because if they're not available then I have to go get the replacement.
    Is this a serious question, or are you just being obtuse? We're comparing what they've done in the past, not what they might do if they both suit up next season.

    You used "years" as a denominator since it gave you a sound byte you thought supported your point. Using "games" as the denominator doesn't support your point, so you twist it.

    Again, if you want to stick with "years" Jeter needs to replicate his '99 season SIX times or his '11 season almost TWENTY times to get to Henderson's WAR.

  4. #254

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Isn't there sort of an inherent contradiction in saying WAR should only be looked at in relation to games played? If I'm fielding a team in a given year, I want to know what I can expect from a WAR perspective for the year from a given player. Because if they're not available then I have to go get the replacement.
    this makes 0 sense
    always reasonable

  5. #255

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Is this a serious question, or are you just being obtuse? We're comparing what they've done in the past, not what they might do if they both suit up next season.

    You used "years" as a denominator since it gave you a sound byte you thought supported your point. Using "games" as the denominator doesn't support your point, so you twist it.
    Yes, it's a serious question and no I'm not being obtuse. I already told you that your point about the all time WAR leaders, and Henderson's place on it, was a valid one. I have enough confidence in my opinion to say when I see the validity in an opposing view.

    Take this to an extreme example to understand the point. Consider two players, player a and player b, each with 20 year careers.

    Player A plays in 81 games a year every year for 20 years and has a WAR in each of those years of 3. At the end of the 81st game every year he gets hurt and doesn't play again until the next season. The team goes and gets the proverbial 'replacement player' with a WAR of 0 to play the rest of the year.

    Player B plays in 162 games a year every year for 20 years with a WAR of 5 per year.

    Player A would have the higher per game WAR, but I'd think you'd take Player B, correct?

  6. #256

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    henderson is not hurt 50% of the time. you are just trying to ding him for the few tack on 'years' for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
    always reasonable

  7. #257

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    man you argue like you are a medieval scholastic.
    always reasonable

  8. #258

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    henderson is not hurt 50% of the time. you are just trying to ding him for the few tack on 'years' for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
    Oh, good, thanks for pointing that out.

  9. #259

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    oh good, thanks for not making that argument.
    always reasonable

  10. #260

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    oh good, thanks for not making that argument.
    Yeah, I thought he was hurt 50% of the time. I stand corrected.

  11. #261

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    you do understand ricky played a few years when he was rly old right. that does not figure into his proper career.
    always reasonable

  12. #262

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    you do understand ricky played a few years when he was rly old right.
    Yes. Yes, I do.

  13. #263

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    then my statement stands. your argument is dismissed.
    always reasonable

  14. #264

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    then my statement stands. your argument is dismissed.
    Oh, okay. Well, I tried.

  15. #265
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    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Yes, it's a serious question and no I'm not being obtuse. I already told you that your point about the all time WAR leaders, and Henderson's place on it, was a valid one. I have enough confidence in my opinion to say when I see the validity in an opposing view.

    Take this to an extreme example to understand the point. Consider two players, player a and player b, each with 20 year careers.

    Player A plays in 81 games a year every year for 20 years and has a WAR in each of those years of 3. At the end of the 81st game every year he gets hurt and doesn't play again until the next season. The team goes and gets the proverbial 'replacement player' with a WAR of 0 to play the rest of the year.

    Player B plays in 162 games a year every year for 20 years with a WAR of 5 per year.

    Player A would have the higher per game WAR, but I'd think you'd take Player B, correct?
    Thanks for pointing out the obvious. What bearing at all does this have on comparing Jeter and Henderson since that hyperbolic example nor even a less hyperbolic one apply?

    And how is your "WAR per season" calculation you endorsed any different in this regard?

  16. #266

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Thanks for pointing out the obvious. What bearing at all does this have on comparing Jeter and Henderson since that hyperbolic example nor even a less hyperbolic one apply?

    And how is your "WAR per season" calculation you endorsed any different in this regard?
    It's all laid out for you there. If you walk away from this and still think that WAR totals should be based on games played rather than seasons, then i'm afriad I can't help you,

  17. #267

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    well you know in baseball you can either play a guy for a whole season or not at all.
    always reasonable

  18. #268

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    replacement players don't produce 0 WAR. they're like 1 WAR or something...


    the extreme example that yankeefan1412 is looking to cite would be someone like Josh Hamilton in 2010. Someone who put up sick WAR numbers even in limited playing time. Usually, people would pick that player over the more consistent but less high-potential player.
    like delv, but better

  19. #269

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SatchelPaigeYankee View Post
    replacement players don't produce 0 WAR. they're like 1 WAR or something...
    you're probably thinking of an "average player" which is considered about 2 WAR. replacement level is 0; it would be a weirdly named stat otherwise.

  20. #270
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    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    It's all laid out for you there. If you walk away from this and still think that WAR totals should be based on games played rather than seasons, then i'm afriad I can't help you,
    Now I'm convinced you're being obtuse or trolling.

    The evidence you've presented:

    Henderson played for too many teams
    Henderson's OBP is "not elite"
    Jeter has a similar SB success rate
    Jeter's position makes him superior
    If you take away Henderson's SBs Jeter is better
    If Henderson was a catcher he'd be better

    You wanted to use counting stats and kept insisting this was all about "positional value" so I gave you a counting stat in WAR that factors in positional value.

    You then converted it to a rate saying "Henderson is worth about half a win a year more than Jeter." Since "years" is kind of a volatile denominator, I gave you WAR relative to games to show that for his career he was accumulating WAR at a faster rate, particularly up to age 37. It is a much more logical way to look at the very argument YOU tried to present, given that it normalizes to a degree for a year like Jeter's shortened 2003, Henderson's strike shortened '94, Henderson's 2003 when he appeared in 30 games, etc.

    I neither need nor asked for your "help".

  21. #271
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    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SatchelPaigeYankee View Post
    replacement players don't produce 0 WAR. they're like 1 WAR or something...


    the extreme example that yankeefan1412 is looking to cite would be someone like Josh Hamilton in 2010. Someone who put up sick WAR numbers even in limited playing time. Usually, people would pick that player over the more consistent but less high-potential player.
    I get what you're saying, and I get what he trying to say. I also get that he is going that route because it supports his pretty thin argument.

    Using "years" for the purposes of comparing Jeter and Henderson's WAR output is misleading.

    The clearest example is '94, where Henderson lost half the year to the strike. If he matched his first half, he'd have accumulated an extra 3 WAR.

    Also, Henderson is disadvantaged when using "years" during the twilight of his career where he either wasn't accumulating games and subsequently not accumlating WAR or his production had tailed off to the degree that it dragged down his "WAR per year". That may or may not happen to Jeter. But it's a bit disingenuous to not account for that.

    Even if you go with "WAR per year", at age 37 Henderson accumulated 5.7 and Jeter 4.2.

  22. #272
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    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Vince Coleman had a better base stealing peak than Henderson anyway. He had a piss-poor .301 OBP in 1986 and still managed to steal 107. Top that. Had he had Rickey's OBP, he would have stolen 150.
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  23. #273

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Killing it.

  24. #274

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Okay, so by WAR, Henderson is worth about a half a win more per year than Jeter. I think this is within the margin of error for WAR, though valid point I agree.
    It is for one year, but you are talking about over a 20 plus year span. That's also including 5 years where Henderson was under 1; take those out (which is fair since we're including the very last years of his career and not jeters) and it's more like 1.5 WAR per year difference. Henderson averaged 7 WAR a year between 1980 and 1994; Jeter's topped 7, twice. There's really no comparison.

  25. #275

    Re: 2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by spikeowenfan View Post
    you're probably thinking of an "average player" which is considered about 2 WAR. replacement level is 0; it would be a weirdly named stat otherwise.
    Yes, you are correct. A replacement player is a 0 WAR. Hence, the term "wins above replacement". It's not "WAR-2", it's WAR.

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