2012 Derek Jeter Performance Thread

[MoVaughnEatsAlot]

Ok. Jeter OPS+ 118, Henderson OPS+ 127 (135 for the Yankees and 130 until he essentially stopped playing fulltime). Winfield was 130 for his career and 134 for the Yankees, essentially the same as Henderson. They were two completely different players, one was high slugging lower OBP (Winfield) and Henderson was high OBP lower slugging.

Winfield actually had the lowest career WAR out of 3, with Jeter second and Henderson blowing them out of the water.

[YankeeFan1421]

Ok. Jeter OPS+ 118, Henderson OPS+ 127 (135 for the Yankees and 130 until he essentially stopped playing fulltime). Winfield was 130 for his career and 134 for the Yankees, essentially the same as Henderson. They were two completely different players, one was high slugging lower OBP (Winfield) and Henderson was high OBP lower slugging.

Winfield actually had the lowest career WAR out of 3, with Jeter second and Henderson blowing them out of the water.

Okay, so Jeter has an OPS+ 9 points lower than Henderson. Do you put any value at all on the fact that Jeter is a shortstop and Henderson a left fielder? If not, I guess Henderson was the better player due to the 9 point difference in adjusted numbers.

As far as Winfield goes, do you put any value at all on the fact that Winfield was one of the very best outfielders of his time with a cannon in right field and Henderson was at best average in left?

[justtxyank]

Obviously, Henderson was a good obp guy. yes, finishing in the top ten as a leadoff hitter 11 times is good. You combine that with his base stealing and power, and he's a clear hall of fame player.

I wish you would have stopped there.

I actually missed a year. Henderson appears in the top 10 12 times.

Here's some comparisons:
Hank Aaron: 7
Bobby Abreu: 4
Roberto Alomar: 1
Jeff Bagwell: 5
Wade Boggs: 10
Barry Bonds: 16 (only 4 more than "not great OBP" guy Henderson)
Rod Carew: 10
Chili Davis: 1
Carlos Delgado: 1
Babe Ruth: 16
Joe Dimaggio: 3
Lou Gehrig: 12
Jason Giambi: 5
Derek Jeter: 3
George Brett: 4
Dave Winfield: 2
Yaz: 7
Ted Williams: 13
Honus Wagner: 11
Larry Walker: 6
David Ortiz: 3
Willie Mays: 9
Todd Helton: 8
Joe Morgan: 8
Paul Konerko: 1
Lance Berkman: 7
John Olerud: 3
Now some leadoff hitters:
Kenny Lofton: 0
Tim Raines: 6
Biggio: 0
Dykstra: 2
Knoblauch: 2

[teknetic]

Okay, so instead of calling people delusional, why don't you explain why you think Henderson is a better overall player than Jeter. Obviously, he stole a lot more bases than Jeter. What else did he do that is significantly better than Jeter? What other aspect of his game was better?

Henderson had a 13-year peak in which he posted a 142 OPS+ with a .291/.409/.449 triple-slash.

[justtxyank]

Okay, so instead of calling people delusional, why don't you explain why you think Henderson is a better overall player than Jeter. Obviously, he stole a lot more bases than Jeter. What else did he do that is significantly better than Jeter? What other aspect of his game was better?

I think that if you take away the thing Henderson did best (steal bases) yes, Jeter is better.

Their 162 game average looks very similar (Jeter slightly better) as long as you don't count stolen bases and as long as you disregard the fact that Henderson tacked on some 1000+at bats of washed up, low average no power baseball to his averages.

Also, Jeter has a career SB% of 79% while Henderson sits at 81%. So your earlier citation of his caught stealing numbers is kind of wasted.

Your other earlier point that Henderson settled for singles too often:
Career Percentage of hits that were singles:
Henderson- 71%
Jeter: 74%

[YankeeFan1421]

I wish you would have stopped there.

I actually missed a year. Henderson appears in the top 10 12 times.

Here's some comparisons:
Hank Aaron: 7
Bobby Abreu: 4
Roberto Alomar: 1
Jeff Bagwell: 5
Wade Boggs: 10
Barry Bonds: 16 (only 4 more than "not great OBP" guy Henderson)
Rod Carew: 10
Chili Davis: 1
Carlos Delgado: 1
Babe Ruth: 16
Joe Dimaggio: 3
Lou Gehrig: 12
Jason Giambi: 5
Derek Jeter: 3
George Brett: 4
Dave Winfield: 2
Yaz: 7
Ted Williams: 13
Honus Wagner: 11
Larry Walker: 6
David Ortiz: 3
Willie Mays: 9
Todd Helton: 8
Joe Morgan: 8
Paul Konerko: 1
Lance Berkman: 7
John Olerud: 3
Now some leadoff hitters:
Kenny Lofton: 0
Tim Raines: 6
Biggio: 0
Dykstra: 2
Knoblauch: 2

I don't get your point. Obviously Henderson is far better than Kenny Lofton and Chuck Knoblauch and Lenny Dykstra. again, Henderson is a clear first ballot HOF'er. No dispute. One of the top twenty position players I've ever watched from the late 1970's through now. No dispute. He could single-handily wreck games like nobody else (well, this side of bonds and pujols). No dispute.

I would take Jeter before him for their careers. A lot of that is based on the positions they play(ed). I'm not saying anybody is an idiot for disagreeing.

I did see Henderson play virtually all of his Yankee games (when I watched a lot more baseball than I can now). I will say that while the whole 'intangible' thing with Jeter has gotten ridiculous many times, I haven't even really gotten into that aspect in this, but, yes, there is some value on the way Jeter plays that can't be completely reflected in statistics.

I see two very different players but ones with very similar overall offensive production. Given how close it is, I give the edge to Jeter given the position he plays (one of the most important versus arguably the least important) and his overall approach.

[effdamets]

I'll chime in here....

Henderson was a very dynamic player.... I liked Rickey. He was the very first hitter I saw at my very first ML baseball game.
I love Jeter because he's all about winning. No drama.

While you can compare the numbers, we must remember that they are WAY different players

That being said....

Jeter career wRC+ = 124
Henderson = 141

[YankeeFan1421]

I'll chime in here....

Henderson was a very dynamic player.... I liked Rickey. He was the very first hitter I saw at my very first ML baseball game.
I love Jeter because he's all about winning. No drama.

While you can compare the numbers, we must remember that they are WAY different players

That being said....

Jeter career wRC+ = 124
Henderson = 141

that's really funny because my first time at the stadium was in 1979...against the A's. Rickey Henderson in left field his rookie year...

[justtxyank]

I don't get your point. Obviously Henderson is far better than Kenny Lofton and Chuck Knoblauch and Lenny Dykstra.

The point I'm trying to drive home is that your "he's not great at OBP for a leadoff guy" was insane. There are no leadoff guys who were as good relative to their league as Henderson was. When you want to make a list of guys who were in the top ten in baseball in obp more than Henderson you are writing names like Williams, Ruth, Bonds. Not leadoff hitters. Legendary, greatest of all time hitters.

again, Henderson is a clear first ballot HOF'er. No dispute. One of the top twenty position players I've ever watched from the late 1970's through now. No dispute. He could single-handily wreck games like nobody else (well, this side of bonds and pujols).

Um...lol? This description sure doesn't sound like you are talking about Jeter or most leadoff hitters, yet you have argued he's not as good as Jeter and not that great for a leadoff hitter. Something's not computing. Are you just pulling our legs here?

I would take Jeter before him for their careers.

You could argue for Jeter relative to position, certainly. In you are fantasy drafting a league maybe Jeter prime is more valuable at SS than Henderson prime is at LF. You also made a silly point earlier when you called him an above average defensive SS. Come on man. That's just crazy talk.

I see two very different players but ones with very similar overall offensive production. Given how close it is, I give the edge to Jeter given the position he plays (one of the most important versus arguably the least important) and his overall approach.

Very similar offensive numbers if you take away the stolen bases, extra bases taken, extra pitches a pitcher throws worrying about Henderson, etc. Yes, if you take out the best part of Rickey's game, he and Jeter are very similar players.

[YankeeFan1421]

I think that if you take away the thing Henderson did best (steal bases) yes, Jeter is better.

Their 162 game average looks very similar (Jeter slightly better) as long as you don't count stolen bases and as long as you disregard the fact that Henderson tacked on some 1000+at bats of washed up, low average no power baseball to his averages.

Also, Jeter has a career SB% of 79% while Henderson sits at 81%. So your earlier citation of his caught stealing numbers is kind of wasted.

Your other earlier point that Henderson settled for singles too often:
Career Percentage of hits that were singles:
Henderson- 71%
Jeter: 74%

Jeter averages more total bases than Henderson...even during Henderson's Yankee years. Now, obviously that's skewed based on the hitters in back of each and the fact that Jeter played in mostly a more offensive era.

But, on some level, that's kind of the point. The fact that they have close to the the same base stealing percentage actually helps the argument for Jeter. Clearly I'm not saying that Jeter could have had the same success stealing bases if he tried as Henderson did, but during Jeter's time the stolen base has largely been discounted (though maybe it's coming back now). It hasn't been a big part of the game plan for the Yankees or other teams as the value of it has been discounted. Obviously, Jeter could have stolen far more bases than he has...how many more we won't know, but again, I'm not suggesting he could have been the all time base stealing leader. then again, who really knows. henderson was actually not the fastest guy around...but he read pitchers extremely well, got great jumps and knew how to steal. I think there's a good chance Jeter could have been a very good base stealer as well if he had focused on it. the fact that he had a similar percentage as Hendeson supports this (though, yes, Jeter was cherry picking times to run and that would help his percentage).

[YankeeFan1421]

The point I'm trying to drive home is that your "he's not great at OBP for a leadoff guy" was insane. There are no leadoff guys who were as good relative to their league as Henderson was. When you want to make a list of guys who were in the top ten in baseball in obp more than Henderson you are writing names like Williams, Ruth, Bonds. Not leadoff hitters. Legendary, greatest of all time hitters.



Um...lol? This description sure doesn't sound like you are talking about Jeter or most leadoff hitters, yet you have argued he's not as good as Jeter and not that great for a leadoff hitter. Something's not computing. Are you just pulling our legs here?




You could argue for Jeter relative to position, certainly. In you are fantasy drafting a league maybe Jeter prime is more valuable at SS than Henderson prime is at LF. You also made a silly point earlier when you called him an above average defensive SS. Come on man. That's just crazy talk.




Very similar offensive numbers if you take away the stolen bases, extra bases taken, extra pitches a pitcher throws worrying about Henderson, etc. Yes, if you take out the best part of Rickey's game, he and Jeter are very similar players.

Okay...you take Henderson on the basis of his stolen bases. I take Jeter on the basis of his position.

And yes, throughout his career he's been an above average defensive shortstop. I know his issues with range, but Jeter is a better shortstop than Henderson was ever an outfielder. No question.

[justtxyank]

Jeter averages more total bases than Henderson...even during Henderson's Yankee years. Now, obviously that's skewed based on the hitters in back of each and the fact that Jeter played in mostly a more offensive era.

You seem to point out the flaws of your own arguments yet continue to hold them up?

But, on some level, that's kind of the point. The fact that they have close to the the same base stealing percentage actually helps the argument for Jeter.

Chipper Jones has steal rate of 76%, close to Jeter. Maybe he too could have been the all time stolen base leader if he tried. I guess we'll never know.

think there's a good chance Jeter could have been a very good base stealer as well if he had focused on it. the fact that he had a similar percentage as Hendeson supports this (though, yes, Jeter was cherry picking times to run and that would help his percentage).

Again, you disprove your own argument and think nothing of it. Jeter is a good basestealer and a smart one. One smart enough to know that he can't steal bases at the clip Henderson did. If Jeter could really steal 100 bases a year and be around 80% but doesn't, he is hurting his team. It's like old "Ichiro could hit 30 homeruns if he wanted to" argument.

[YankeeFan1421]

You seem to point out the flaws of your own arguments yet continue to hold them up?



Chipper Jones has steal rate of 76%, close to Jeter. Maybe he too could have been the all time stolen base leader if he tried. I guess we'll never know.



Again, you disprove your own argument and think nothing of it. Jeter is a good basestealer and a smart one. One smart enough to know that he can't steal bases at the clip Henderson did. If Jeter could really steal 100 bases a year and be around 80% but doesn't, he is hurting his team. It's like old "Ichiro could hit 30 homeruns if he wanted to" argument.

Yeah, there are flaws in every argument relating to comparing two different players from two different eras. I learned that a long time ago and point out the ones I see...even in my own.

[Mr Coffee]

I love Jeter as much as the next Yankees fan, but c'mon.

[False1]

Left field is a premium defensive position??

I was calling out peak and thinking of him circa '85/'86 (which is where I saw him the most obviously) and he was pretty exclusively a CF. So in the context I was using, CF would be a premium defensive position, no?

[False1]

At his peak, Henderson was as good as anyone you've ever seen offensively? Huh?

He led the league one time in OPS. He never hit more than 28 home runs in a season and hit more than 21 just four times. .419 lifetime slugging. As the supposed all time best leadoff hitter, he led the league in OBP just once in a 25 year career.

Yes, he stole 1406 bases, but was thrown out 335 times as well. Mediocre outfielder overall who couldn't play center and was moved to left.

Clearly a HOF'er, but nowhere near the best offensive player I've ever seen.

Wow. I guess he's "slightly better than average", eh? I'd double back on your response to me and show you how wrong you are, but that's been done by several forumers since I last checked in. You are so far off on this it's not even funny.

EDIT - BTW, please go back and correct the "quote" tags on post #160. It's messing up replies and some of your rather curious comments are being attributed to me as a result. I'd prefer that folks here don't assume I am delusional. kthx.

[YankeeFan1421]

I was calling out peak and thinking of him circa '85/'86 (which is where I saw him the most obviously) and he was pretty exclusively a CF. So in the context I was using, CF would be a premium defensive position, no?

He played a couple of years in center, but for something like 85% of his career, he was a left fielder. Henderson was not a good defensive outfielder.

[sweet_lou_14]

I love Jeter as much as the next Yankees fan, but c'mon.

Same here. I like Jeter about 500 times as much as I ever liked Rickey Henderson, but Rickey really was something else.

This thread feels like one of those internet arguments about whether Batman can beat the Green Lantern. Well if fans get to vote, sure he can. And will, every time.

Pointing out that the Green Lantern has insane powers for which Batman has no answer doesn't make Batman any less awesome and worthy of our undying gratitude for all the times he's been there for us.

[False1]

I'll chime in here....

Henderson was a very dynamic player.... I liked Rickey. He was the very first hitter I saw at my very first ML baseball game.
I love Jeter because he's all about winning. No drama.

While you can compare the numbers, we must remember that they are WAY different players

That being said....

Jeter career wRC+ = 124
Henderson = 141

This is the statistic that really opens/shuts the door on this discussion.

For context, I was assuming we were talking peak. In that case:

Jeter: 157
Henderson: 204

[1936-1939JoeNLou]

Rickey Henderson makes Jeter look like Enrique Wilson.

[False1]

He played a couple of years in center, but for something like 85% of his career, he was a left fielder. Henderson was not a good defensive outfielder.

Please clarify... are we talking peak, or career? Went back to the original post and that wasn't called out specifically.

Doesn't really change my POV, (if we're talking peak there's really nothing to debate at all) but again during the time frame I'm referring to he was pretty exclusively a CF.

[justtxyank]

Same here. I like Jeter about 500 times as much as I ever liked Rickey Henderson, but Rickey really was something else.

This thread feels like one of those internet arguments about whether Batman can beat the Green Lantern. Well if fans get to vote, sure he can. And will, every time.

Pointing out that the Green Lantern has insane powers for which Batman has no answer doesn't make Batman any less awesome and worthy of our undying gratitude for all the times he's been there for us.

Lou, this response is so full of epic win that I wish I could frame it on the imaginary walls of NYYFans.com

[effdamets]

Rickey Henderson makes Jeter look like Enrique Wilson.

Let's not get carried away....

[justtxyank]

EDIT - BTW, please go back and correct the "quote" tags on post #160. It's messing up replies and some of your rather curious comments are being attributed to me as a result. I'd prefer that folks here don't assume I am delusional. kthx.

I was wondering what was going on there!

[False1]

I was wondering what was going on there!

Yeah, wouldn't mind if you edited the quote tags in your post. I'm not hypersensitive about much, but really not a huge fan of having a post complaining about Henderson's OBP with the False1 brand on it.