2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

[spikeowenfan]

The bolded is one man's opinion. One easily debunked by none other than the Yankees for the past 20 years.

that opinion is pretty universal. your notion that high end pitching can be acquired or developed without great luck or great investment of resources is not so commonly shared.

I don't think anyone is arguing that outright. It's more a matter of acquiring a pitcher under the right circumstances. The Yankees traded from a position of scarcity for a position of relative abundance while at the same time eschewing their greatest advantage, i.e. financial might.

^see above quote. I agree that it isn't always the right call to go after a young pitcher, though. I think you are putting a little too much faith in the free agent market. The Yankees might have the opportunity to give $140 million to a 30 year old Cole Hamels next year. I will probably be hoping they do that, but it's not a great victory for the team or a reliable way to build a staff.

Point completely missed by you.

His success, whenever he had it, was tied to his velocity, which in all likelihood he won't be able to sustain as a SP.

That's not bashing Pineda either. He'll have to be a different pitcher than the one we traded for if he is to succeed. Pointing that out isn't bashing.

My mistake. I lumped your post into the others that were criticizing the trade. I'm not putting too much faith in it, but the team does, publicly at least, seem optimistic about a full recovery. If not, like you said, he showed an aptitude for pitching with how quickly he developed that change. He's always had good control too so I think he can succeed in the low 90s.

[rajah]

I don't think anyone is arguing that outright. It's more a matter of acquiring a pitcher under the right circumstances. The Yankees traded from a position of scarcity for a position of relative abundance while at the same time eschewing their greatest advantage, i.e. financial might.

I disagree that the Yankees have a "relative abundance" of the kind of pitching that wins championships.

I also disagree that the Yankee management is "eschewing" their financial advantage, to the extent that still exists over the many other franchises, not just Boston, but also Philly and Texas and the LA teams etc, that are also getting the lucrative cable deals. The Yankees still have some advantage, but it is not what it was in the early days of YES.

And, by the way, DHs are never "scarce." If Montero is not a catcher, he is not really a "scarce" commodity, at least not unless he reaches a very high peak as a hitter.

[spikeowenfan]

From Cashman, "We're cautiously optimistic. We are not going to downplay the significance of this injury but there is a high success rate coming back from this particular surgery. It certain could be better, I guess. If we weren't dealing with this it would certainly be a better situation. It could be worse if it involved the rotator cuff. But it's not a good situation, clearly, regardless."

via marc carig

[Mr Coffee]

I knew yesterday, when Pineda's agent went seeking a second opinion, that we were shtupped

I found an interesting article from 2007 about the guy he went to see. I think I would have wanted his opinion as well: http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbc...ORTS/708070328

[dave8274]

According to this article, he's most likely done.

http://http://www.slate.com/articles...illed_him.html

[Battingly]

The way I see it, for whatever its worth ...

If the Yankees were getting the young flame-thrower from Seattle I watched last year, and when you make the trade you have to assume thats what you're getting, it was a good deal for the Yankees because THAT GUY, the one I saw last year, had legit dominant ace potential.

This is just bad luck

[Mr Coffee]

According to this article, he's most likely done.

http://http://www.slate.com/articles...illed_him.html

That article is from 2004. I'd like to think there's been some advance in shoulder surgery since then. For example, I'm pretty sure they were doing them arthroscopically in most of those past cases they referred to.

[Gigi Buffon]

With all the "damaged goods" posts, I still haven't seen any plausible explanation of how the Mariners would know that Pineda was injured, but the Yankees would not. Even if we give the Mariners this special power, I don't think Jack Z would trade Pineda knowing he was hurt. He would have to be extremely confident that his prior knowledge of the injury would never be found out because I believe the repercussions, aside from any potential official MLB sanctions, would be severe. Based on baseball hiring patterns, Jack Z should feel relatively confident that he can work in a front office somewhere as long as he wants. I don't see him jeopardizing that for one trade and I think there is reason to believe that being underhanded with other teams would jeopardize his future career.

He was damaged goods but that doesn't mean the Mariners were of aware of it and knowingly went out to foist him on some unsuspecting sucker.

My only argument is that it's crazy to think that the Yankees somehow contributed to the injury by mismanaging him this spring. It's not like they had him throwing 200 pitches a day at full speed from day 1. They didn't have him long enough to mismanage him. People want to use this as an out to defend the trade as in "it was a great trade but they screwed him up in the three weeks they had him."

If Pineda had shown up in Mariners camp this spring the same thing would have happened. Dude had a shoulder problem that was waiting to blow up.

[Torre Must Go]

Wasn't there a time where we could've gotten Cliff Lee for Montero and NunEz? I wonder if Cashman privately would've done that now with a chance to repeat in 2010.

Looks like Pineda will also start next season on the DL, with the hope that he's ready by next May. Let's hope he doesn't use a trampoline during his rehab.

Cashman, stay away from pitchers. Bad luck and bad results.

[dave8274]

That article is from 2004. I'd like to think there's been some advance in shoulder surgery since then. For example, I'm pretty sure they were doing them arthroscopically in most of those past cases they referred to.

Isn't that also how they are doing Pinedas?

[Spin]

That article is from 2004. I'd like to think there's been some advance in shoulder surgery since then. For example, I'm pretty sure they were doing them arthroscopically in most of those past cases they referred to.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/articl...-treatment#a25

This is a more recent review of labral tears.

[Mr Coffee]

Isn't that also how they are doing Pinedas?

Yeah-- I mean 'weren't doing them arthroscopically'.

My bad.

[Battingly]

I found an interesting article from 2007 about the guy he went to see. I think I would have wanted his opinion as well: http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbc...ORTS/708070328

Wow, that guy is good. I hope he's doing Pineda's surgery.

[Mr Coffee]

http://emedicine.medscape.com/articl...-treatment#a25

This is a more recent review of labral tears.

That's certainly more optimistic.

Question-- does he have a full SLAP tear or is it just the anterior?

I don't pretend to have a GED in sports medicine or anything, but it seems to me the less that is involved the better.

[Mr Coffee]

Wow, that guy is good. I hope he's doing Pineda's surgery.

I doubt it-- he's the Mets team surgeon now. He's just the one Pineda's agent wanted for a second opinion. I wonder which one of his past clients had work done by him. Pedro maybe?

[Battingly]

I don't pretend to have a GED in sports medicine ...

lol

[THEBOSS84]

I didn't like Montero's attitude. He was whiny.

Pineda had the mindset of a pitcher to me. Not a thrower. He came and took a below average change up and make it look good. He seemed more about doing his job than about Michael Pineda. Montero seemed to be all about Montero.

Classic.

[teknetic]

http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/stor...michael-pineda

"Absolutely not," Zduriencik told ESPNNewYork.com shortly after the Yankees announced Pineda would miss a full year because of shoulder surgery. "None, whatsoever. Before the trade, he was going to be our No. 2 starter."

Liar liar pants on fire.

[Battingly]

I doubt it-- he's the Mets team surgeon now.

Yeah but I'm sure he's not bound to working with the Mets only.

He's one of the top op-surgeons in the country and I'm sure he has a private practice as well?

[Mr Coffee]

Yeah but I'm sure he's not bound to working with the Mets only.

He's one of the top op-surgeons in the country and I'm sure he has a private practice as well?

Yeah maybe. I think they already announced who was doing the surgery. Isn't it the Yankees guy Ahmed?

EDIT: Nope-- you're right.. Altchek is doing it : http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/stor...houlder-injury

[snapple]

Classic.

Hey, it's not as absurd sounding as the other stuff in this thread. I'll admit it was baiting. The thing is, no one notices any of the positive things said unless someone is a smartass or makes outlandish comments. People see and hear exactly what they want to see and hear.

[spikeowenfan]

If Pineda had shown up in Mariners camp this spring the same thing would have happened. Dude had a shoulder problem that was waiting to blow up.

no way of knowing, but this seems most likely true. If there was no way to know that he was hurt, though, I don't see how it can be used as a criticism of the trade. Unless it's just a general "never trade hitting for young pitching" type argument.

edit: about the only thing I've learned from all the reading on shoulder surgery I've done this past hour is that I would have done very poorly in med school

[MoVaughnEatsAlot]

I see many of our resident psychologists have switched professions to orthopedic surgeons.

[Battingly]

EDIT: Nope-- you're right.. Altchek is doing it : http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/stor...houlder-injury

Awesome, hopefully this guy can work his magic.

[bomber999]

So, I guess the money that we should have spent on Yu will be thrown Cole Hamels' way this offseason? Well, at least we still have Montero if we need to make a trade. Oh wait