2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

[spikeowenfan]

Pitchers are always a risky investment, and any time you pay a significant price for a young arm, you know that it could blow up on any given pitch. However, the consensus at the time of the deal is that it was a smart move for the Yankees to make, and an organization can’t entirely avoid acquiring pitchers simply due to a preference for risk avoidance. If you want a good pitching staff, you’re going to have to take some gambles on some young arms. The Yankees did, and in this case, it didn’t work. That doesn’t make it a bad idea, or a move that the Yankees front office should be criticized for making.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...h-torn-labrum/

the bolded seems to be argued against by some in this thread. Or is it something unique to Pineda or Montero that made this a particularly bad gamble?

It seems there's a ton of variation between "labral tears" and that third parties won't be that informative because they don't have the specific information. The optimism coming from the yankees about the chances of recovery are a bit reassuring.

[justtxyank]

I'm sure they are. Whether people post in the game thread or not, doesn't mean they are uninterested in what Hughes does. The GT is pretty much unreadable with the doom & gloom after every inning combined with the obnoxious attempts at jinxing the other team.

I think game threads are an acquired taste. I think many people (myself in this group) simply see no enjoyment in posting in the game thread very often. Sometimes it interests me, usually it seems boring to me. That is no reflection on whether I want to WATCH the game.

[YankeePride1967]

Seriously. I don't get why people are trying to sugarcoat this. Devastating? No but it's definitely not good at all.

It's almost like some are just hellbent on making this out to be no big deal since that was their original stance during Spring Training.

Just like on the opposite side those against are calling Pineda's career over for the same reason. Obviously this is bad news but the bottom line is no one knows what the final outcome will be. Obviously anytime a shoulder injury happens it is worse than the elbow bit the fact there is no rotator cuff damage and it is being done arthroscopically is at least somewhat less negative news.

[ajra21]

Jack Zdurencik thinking.... "this is too easy (lol)".

Actually, I bet he's thinking: Man, we got lucky ...

[snapple]

I didn't like Montero's attitude. He was whiny.

Pineda had the mindset of a pitcher to me. Not a thrower. He came and took a below average change up and make it look good. He seemed more about doing his job than about Michael Pineda. Montero seemed to be all about Montero.

[Mr Coffee]

I saw the post Coffee. I've got another tab opened to google trying to read about Schilling's injury.

Looks like he had it in 1995 and 1999. I don't know if that is good news or bad.

http://articles.philly.com/2000-02-2...eneral-manager

[dabomb2045]

I think game threads are an acquired taste. I think many people (myself in this group) simply see no enjoyment in posting in the game thread very often. Sometimes it interests me, usually it seems boring to me. That is no reflection on whether I want to WATCH the game.

I think the GT's pretty much suck now. I used to enjoy them alot back in the day....now its just a few people in there everynight talking about the same things and barely showing any emotion regarding the game.

[kongull]

Pitchers are always a risky investment, and any time you pay a significant price for a young arm, you know that it could blow up on any given pitch. However, the consensus at the time of the deal is that it was a smart move for the Yankees to make, and an organization can’t entirely avoid acquiring pitchers simply due to a preference for risk avoidance. If you want a good pitching staff, you’re going to have to take some gambles on some young arms. The Yankees did, and in this case, it didn’t work. That doesn’t make it a bad idea, or a move that the Yankees front office should be criticized for making.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...h-torn-labrum/

the bolded seems to be argued against by some in this thread. Or is it something unique to Pineda or Montero that made this a particularly bad gamble?

It seems there's a ton of variation between "labral tears" and that third parties won't be that informative because they don't have the specific information. The optimism coming from the yankees about the chances of recovery are a bit reassuring.

The bolded is one man's opinion. One easily debunked by none other than the Yankees for the past 20 years.

[Yankee Tripper]

Looks like he had it in 1995 and 1999. I don't know if that is good news or bad.

http://articles.philly.com/2000-02-2...eneral-manager

Near as I can tell the sucess rate is somewhere between 33-66% pn should surgeries for MLBers. Not sure how relaible that is and if it is all shoulder surgries or just a subset of them as the data came from one USA Today article I found.

I believe Jake Peavy, C-M Wang and Johan Santana are three recent examples of pitchers who have returned from shoulder surgries to return to MLB rosters. Whether or not they have returned to their pre-injury level is debatable given the small samples on 2 of them and peavy didn't look great his first seasons back from the injury.

[Zimmers' Helmet]

Did Liriano have a torn labrum, torn rotator cuff, or both?

Are there any examples of hard throwers who torn their labrum, without damage to the RC, had the labrum repaired, and DID regain their prior velocity?

Are there any examples of the opposite, torn labrum, no RC damage, had the labrum repaired, and DID NOT regain their prior velocity?

Preferably recent examples so the advancements in surgery are in the same ball-park.

Roger Clemens (1985), Curt Schilling (1995), and Chris Carpenter (2002) are among the small minority of starting pitchers who made a full recovery from a torn labrum.

[Mr Coffee]

Roger Clemens (1985), Curt Schilling (1995), and Chris Carpenter (2002) are among the small minority of starting pitchers who made a full recovery from a torn labrum.

What about Ted Lilly? Didn't he have a torn labrum?

I guess Bedard is too soon to tell.

[YESSIR!]

Pitchers are always a risky investment, and any time you pay a significant price for a young arm, you know that it could blow up on any given pitch. However, the consensus at the time of the deal is that it was a smart move for the Yankees to make, and an organization can’t entirely avoid acquiring pitchers simply due to a preference for risk avoidance. If you want a good pitching staff, you’re going to have to take some gambles on some young arms. The Yankees did, and in this case, it didn’t work. That doesn’t make it a bad idea, or a move that the Yankees front office should be criticized for making.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...h-torn-labrum/

the bolded seems to be argued against by some in this thread. Or is it something unique to Pineda or Montero that made this a particularly bad gamble?

It seems there's a ton of variation between "labral tears" and that third parties won't be that informative because they don't have the specific information. The optimism coming from the yankees about the chances of recovery are a bit reassuring.

I don't think anyone is arguing that outright. It's more a matter of acquiring a pitcher under the right circumstances. The Yankees traded from a position of scarcity for a position of relative abundance while at the same time eschewing their greatest advantage, i.e. financial might.

[JohnnyEllis]

this myth has been repeatedly disproved. He was consistent the whole year and if anything there was a slight improvement in the second half.

Point completely missed by you.

His success, whenever he had it, was tied to his velocity, which in all likelihood he won't be able to sustain as a SP.

That's not bashing Pineda either. He'll have to be a different pitcher than the one we traded for if he is to succeed. Pointing that out isn't bashing.

[teknetic]

Jack Zdurencik thinking.... "this is too easy (lol)".

Chone Figgins said the same thing when Z phoned his agent.

[NYCrusader]

At least we got Jose Campos to make ourselves feel better.

I'm not going to engage in the hyperbole of both sides because I value my sanity but man are some of you guys really terrible.

[NYCrusader]

I didn't like Montero's attitude. He was whiny.

Pineda had the mindset of a pitcher to me. Not a thrower. He came and took a below average change up and make it look good. He seemed more about doing his job than about Michael Pineda. Montero seemed to be all about Montero.

[jnewmark]

Gee, good thing Andy decided to make a comeback. I'm wondering if he did'nt get a phone call.

[ArodEra]

I didn't like Montero's attitude. He was whiny.

Pineda had the mindset of a pitcher to me. Not a thrower. He came and took a below average change up and make it look good. He seemed more about doing his job than about Michael Pineda. Montero seemed to be all about Montero.

Wow...................................Wow.

[Battingly]

Roger Clemens (1985), Curt Schilling (1995), and Chris Carpenter (2002) are among the small minority of starting pitchers who made a full recovery from a torn labrum.

What about Ted Lilly? Didn't he have a torn labrum?

Thanks zim

Lilly wouldn't count, coffee, because I'm specifically looking for hard throwers who regained their prior velocity.

All I'm trying to discern here is whether or not we can still get the pitcher we traded for, the power pitcher who sits in the mid 90's, or if those days are gone forever. Thats why I was asking for examples of power pitchers who made a full recovery from this surgery, and its encouraging to know its been done, hopefully Pineda can do it too.

[Jax Teller]

Wow...................................Wow.

Pineda made himself better & he's a team player. Montero makes himself better & he's selfish. Yup, makes total sense to me.

[Battingly]

He had TJS.

ah ok, thanks 62

[Mr Coffee]

Thanks zim

Lilly wouldn't count, coffee, because I'm specifically looking for hard throwers who regained their prior velocity.

All I'm trying to discern here is whether or not we can still get the pitcher we traded for, the power pitcher who sits in the mid 90's, or if those days are gone forever. Thats why I was asking for examples of power pitchers who made a full recovery from this surgery, and its encouraging to know its been done, hopefully Pineda can do it too.

Oh I didn't catch the power pitcher addendum.

[dabomb2045]

Montero was whiny? That reminds me of the "Cano smiles and laughs too much...he doesnt care!" or "ARod puckers his lips at the plate...he's scared!" nonsense.

[Matsui-San]

Man we have bad luck with young pitchers. Oh well, hope he comes back throwing gas in '13.

[Battingly]

I knew yesterday, when Pineda's agent went seeking a second opinion, that we were shtupped