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  1. #1526

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    Actually it's the opposite if we want to evaluate the stock at this moment. Right now Montero is hitting worse than Ibanez. Nosei is pitching like Garcia while Campos is lighting out in the minor.
    And Pineda is hurt

  2. #1527

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    montero is not totally sucking. he's shown some bright spots that display his power and prodigious hitting ability. the flaws are there, but he should improve with experience.
    always reasonable

  3. #1528

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    This sounds like Hughes all over again. Didn't come to camp in optimal shape, overcompensated, hurts arm, MRI doesn't find anything wrong, cortizone shot, feels better, comes back with diminished but improved velocity, and comes into Spring Training next year with normal velocity.
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  4. #1529

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    I find that hard to believe as I would think most trades for a pitcher during the offseason would require one before the trade is finalized.
    Yep.

    http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012...rading-montero

    And as in all trades for pitchers, Pineda underwent a physical that included an MRI on his pitching arm, and, according to Cashman, the MRI came back clean.

  5. #1530
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    I'm sure Jack Z has an even better MRI with hyperspacial vector zone technology that found the hidden shoulder problems, or even worse, CAUSED the future shoulder problems just to screw the yankees

    For all intents and purposes baseball players' medical records are in the public domain (not for us, but for baseball teams' management). It would probably be really hard to sneak a serious injury by someone

    All these posts about how a GM "got played like a fiddle" sound as out of date as that stupid metaphor. This isn't coney island in 1925 with carnival tricksters

  6. #1531
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    The failed Cliff Lee trade should have served as fair warning to never deal with Jack Z again.

    It's starting to look like Cashman got hustled into sacrificing his top prospect for damaged goods.
    agree 100%. montero was house money burning a hole in cahman's pocket.
    Carlos Beltran wanted to play CF for the Yankees, not the mets. The Yankees said no. Mark Teixeira wanted to play 1B for the Yankees, not the sux. The Yankees said yes!

  7. #1532
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace View Post
    I'm sure Jack Z has an even better MRI with hyperspacial vector zone technology that found the hidden shoulder problems, or even worse, CAUSED the future shoulder problems just to screw the yankees

    For all intents and purposes baseball players' medical records are in the public domain (not for us, but for baseball teams' management). It would probably be really hard to sneak a serious injury by someone

    All these posts about how a GM "got played like a fiddle" sound as out of date as that stupid metaphor. This isn't coney island in 1925 with carnival tricksters
    Pineda was in the M's organization for years. Their trainers and medical staff would have intimate knowledge about Pineda's health issues that other teams won't figure out in one month. The Yankees still don't know what wrong with him.

    Should we just bury our heads in the Coney Island sand and ignore the fact that Pineda was suffering from diminished velocity while he was still a Mariner? Is that not a reason to be suspicious?
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  8. #1533

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dogg View Post
    agree 100%. montero was house money burning a hole in cahman's pocket.
    Montero was the opposite of house money. He was a top notch positional prospect on a team with a dearth of them and an aging lineup. In addition they have young pitching prospects and were in the process of signing Kuroda.

    The trade made no sense.
    Plays the game the wrong way.

  9. #1534

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    Montero was the opposite of house money. He was a top notch positional prospect on a team with a dearth of them and an aging lineup. In addition they have young pitching prospects and were in the process of signing Kuroda.

    The trade made no sense.
    It's because of the dearth of aging position players that he had no spot on this team.
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  10. #1535
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Pineda was in the M's organization for years. Their trainers and medical staff would have intimate knowledge about Pineda's health issues that other teams won't figure out in one month. The Yankees still don't know what wrong with him.

    Should we just bury our heads in the Coney Island sand and ignore the fact that Pineda was suffering from diminished velocity while he was still a Mariner? Is that not a reason to be suspicious?
    So explain how they'd know something was wrong that science wouldn't be able to detect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    Montero was the opposite of house money. He was a top notch positional prospect on a team with a dearth of them and an aging lineup. In addition they have young pitching prospects and were in the process of signing Kuroda.

    The trade made no sense.
    Kuroda is merely a stopgap. Betances is far too erratic to rely on and Banuelos hasn't been lighting the world on fire either. They havean abundance of young pitching talent, but none that are elite arms like Pineda.

  11. #1536

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    It's because of the dearth of aging position players that he had no spot on this team.
    Yankees have themselves to blame for that.

  12. #1537
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Pineda was in the M's organization for years. Their trainers and medical staff would have intimate knowledge about Pineda's health issues that other teams won't figure out in one month. The Yankees still don't know what wrong with him.

    Should we just bury our heads in the Coney Island sand and ignore the fact that Pineda was suffering from diminished velocity while he was still a Mariner? Is that not a reason to be suspicious?
    Right, we should never make a trade with someone, because if we are winning the trade, it must be a secret injury, and the only other option is losing the trade. I'm sure you can see your logic isn't in any way specific to this situation, its just a vague fear you can have about any kind of commitment to anything

    No, i dont think the Mariners know the deep inner secrets of Pineda's shoulder and how it relates to his ability to pitch. Nobody does, because joints are insanely complicated and so is the stress pitching puts on a shoulder. The Mariners aren't smarter than the rest of modern medical science and an MRI. Seriously, if this was true, nobody would trade for anyone

  13. #1538

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    So explain how they'd know something was wrong that science wouldn't be able to detect?



    Kuroda is merely a stopgap. Betances is far too erratic to rely on and Banuelos hasn't been lighting the world on fire either. They havean abundance of young pitching talent, but none that are elite arms like Pineda.
    Joba and Hughes were suppose to be their elite arms. Does anyone have faith in them developing a pitcher especially a highly touted one?

  14. #1539
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    So explain how they'd know something was wrong that science wouldn't be able to detect?



    Kuroda is merely a stopgap. Betances is far too erratic to rely on and Banuelos hasn't been lighting the world on fire either. They havean abundance of young pitching talent, but none that are elite arms like Pineda.
    • They didn't need science to see his velocity had already diminished late last year while still pitching for the M's
    • A regular MRI without dye will not usually show labrum damage or minor rotator cuff tears. Like I said, the Yankees still don't know what the cause is, because they didn't do these tests at the time of the trade, which is baffling considering Pineda already experienced diminished velocity prior to the trade.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  15. #1540
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace View Post
    Right, we should never make a trade with someone, because if we are winning the trade, it must be a secret injury, and the only other option is losing the trade. I'm sure you can see your logic isn't in any way specific to this situation, its just a vague fear you can have about any kind of commitment to anything

    No, i dont think the Mariners know the deep inner secrets of Pineda's shoulder and how it relates to his ability to pitch. Nobody does, because joints are insanely complicated and so is the stress pitching puts on a shoulder. The Mariners aren't smarter than the rest of modern medical science and an MRI. Seriously, if this was true, nobody would trade for anyone
    Get back to me when you decide to stop being snarky and condescending.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  16. #1541
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Get back to me when you decide to stop being snarky and condescending.
    I guess I upset you, although im not sure where the mean words are. I'm not going to restate my points, and you haven't responded to them, so they stand.

  17. #1542

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    • They didn't need science to see his velocity had already diminished late last year while still pitching for the M's
    • A regular MRI without dye will not usually show labrum damage or minor rotator cuff tears. Like I said, the Yankees still don't know what the cause is, because they didn't do these tests at the time of the trade, which is baffling considering Pineda already experienced diminished velocity prior to the trade.
    I actually asked a doctor friend about this and he told me just about everyone has some damage and he suspects a "clean" MRI of a professional pitcher, with or without dye, does not exist.

    It's a matter of degree and they need a baseline, along with talking to the pitcher to know if something on the MRI is causing the discomfort/pain.

  18. #1543

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    Yankees have themselves to blame for that.
    Whatever the reason, it is what it is.
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  19. #1544
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread


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  20. #1545
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    So explain how they'd know something was wrong that science wouldn't be able to detect?



    Kuroda is merely a stopgap. Betances is far too erratic to rely on and Banuelos hasn't been lighting the world on fire either. They havean abundance of young pitching talent, but none that are elite arms like Pineda.
    and people are forgetting about Campos. A lot has to go right, but he is blazing right now.

  21. #1546
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Should we just bury our heads in the Coney Island sand and ignore the fact that Pineda was suffering from diminished velocity while he was still a Mariner? Is that not a reason to be suspicious?
    For a young guy with an IP increase and with the extra rest the M's gave him at the end of last season to limit his total IP, a drop in velocity isn't really shocking though. He checked out clean medically prior to the trade. And perhaps the inclusion of Campos for Noesi was an acknowledgement of the injury risk during negotiations?

  22. #1547
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    I actually asked a doctor friend about this and he told me just about everyone has some damage and he suspects a "clean" MRI of a professional pitcher, with or without dye, does not exist.

    It's a matter of degree and they need a baseline, along with talking to the pitcher to know if something on the MRI is causing the discomfort/pain.
    Totally agree - but there are still structural issues that don't always show up in a regular MRI without dye. We saw this with Jorge Posada - they were only able to diagnose a torn labrum after he had the MRI with the dye.

    Under normal circumstances, a regular MRI is part of a routine physical when making a trade - the fact that Pineda already experienced diminished velocity with the M's prior to the trade should have raised a red flag that would have justified further diagnostic tests.

    Is it possible the M's already conducted this type of MRI after shutting him down and found something that doesn't show up in a regular MRI? Sure it's possible.

    All I know is Pineda was never quite right from day 1, so naturally you have to wonder whether the M's knew something that they didn't disclose.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  23. #1548

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Pineda was in the M's organization for years. Their trainers and medical staff would have intimate knowledge about Pineda's health issues that other teams won't figure out in one month. The Yankees still don't know what wrong with him.

    Should we just bury our heads in the Coney Island sand and ignore the fact that Pineda was suffering from diminished velocity while he was still a Mariner? Is that not a reason to be suspicious?
    Are you talking about one game of diminished velocity because I don't remember the fangraphs showing any long-term diminished velocity readings. Also, the Yankees received his medicals before the finalized trade and thus probably compared them to the physical he took in January to check if any baseline information has changed.

  24. #1549
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Totally agree - but there are still structural issues that don't always show up in a regular MRI without dye. We saw this with Jorge Posada - they were only able to diagnose a torn labrum after he had the MRI with the dye.

    Under normal circumstances, a regular MRI is part of a routine physical when making a trade - the fact that Pineda already experienced diminished velocity with the M's prior to the trade should have raised a red flag that would have justified further diagnostic tests.

    Is it possible the M's already conducted this type of MRI after shutting him down and found something that doesn't show up in a regular MRI? Sure it's possible.

    All I know is Pineda was never quite right from day 1, so naturally you have to wonder whether the M's knew something that they didn't disclose.
    I'm sure the penalties would be ridiculously stiff if they did this, and it would be hard to keep secret wouldn't it? I mean, wouldn't Pineda and his agent know specifics on tests? Why would they keep silent about it?

    What are the MLB penalties for withholding that type of info? Pretty sure no one would deal with Z again if that were discovered. Sounds a bit conspiracy theory-ish to me.

  25. #1550

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I'm sure the penalties would be ridiculously stiff if they did this, and it would be hard to keep secret wouldn't it? I mean, wouldn't Pineda and his agent know specifics on tests? Why would they keep silent about it?

    What are the MLB penalties for withholding that type of info? Pretty sure no one would deal with Z again if that were discovered. Sounds a bit conspiracy theory-ish to me.
    Until we know the results of tomorrow's tests, some Yankee fan imaginations are going to be all over the place. Right now, Cashman is the dumbest GM in the game to certain Yankee fans. From my perspective, they need to get to the source of Pineda's problem. The Yankees have nobody else to blame, but themselves until his issues get resolve one way or another.

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