2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

[Yankees1962]

I keep seeing refrences to his arb clock being stalled. I didn't think the DL stopped it as long as he was on the ML roster. Is there something I'm missing?

The DL stint doesn't stop it unless it runs passed the alloted rehab time allowed which means they don't add him to the active 25 man roster from the 15 day DL when require to do so and keep him in Scranton for some additional time. In short, they activate him then demote him to Scranton.

[ieddyi]

Tweets from Joel Sherman about Pineda and Rothschild. Looks like he try to muscle the ball for additional velocity and got his mechanics out of whack because of the lack of conditioning on his part. Out of the spotlight now, they should take their time in getting his conditioning up to par and straighten his mechanics out before he pitches in rehab games. IMO, I think they go past the normal rehab time to delay his arbitration clock this year. I can see them keeping him off the active 25 man roster until late May at the earliest.

"Rothschild feels Pineda went East-West more this spring to compensate for shoulder weaknesses, "

This would support what I was saying

The comparison to RJ doesn't fit as he had a very good year last year- a sustained period where he had great velocity, control and command

If the issue in ST had just been control, then I could see it as an issue of mechanics that might have caused the shoulder issues. Since his velo was so diminished and he had the cut to the FB, it seems like the shoulder issues were effecting his mechanics, not vice versa

Regardless, it's great news that he's throwing already and really look forward to seeing a healthy Pineda w/ last years velocity

[Yankeesfan924]

"Rothschild feels Pineda went East-West more this spring to compensate for shoulder weaknesses, "

This would support what I was saying

The comparison to RJ doesn't fit as he had a very good year last year- a sustained period where he had great velocity, control and command

If the issue in ST had just been control, then I could see it as an issue of mechanics that might have caused the shoulder issues. Since his velo was so diminished and he had the cut to the FB, it seems like the shoulder issues were effecting his mechanics, not vice versa

Regardless, it's great news that he's throwing already and really look forward to seeing a healthy Pineda w/ last years velocity

I'm not a doctor or a trainer (a big disclaimer I think a lot of us on this forum need), but it looks to me that he didn't work out all winter, so when he came to camp, he didn't have a strong fastball, so he tried throwing it harder, which messed up his mechanics and his shoulder.

[Snatch Catch]

"Rothschild feels Pineda went East-West more this spring to compensate for shoulder weaknesses, "

This would support what I was saying

I don't think so, because you were talking about compensating for an injury. I understand that weakness is a non-normal state, but I don't believe it is an injury in the sense that we speak of them with regards to sports - some sort of trauma.

The comparison to RJ doesn't fit as he had a very good year last year- a sustained period where he had great velocity, control and command

I agree that RJ is a different case from a performance standpoint, but that doesn't mean that he isn't an example of a tall pitcher having difficulty repeating mechanics at times. Pineda has always had very good control, so it's possible that poor mechanics don't affect that facet of his game the same way they do others. Poor mechanics can result in les velo and movement on pitches as well.

[ieddyi]

I don't think so, because you were talking about compensating for an injury. I understand that weakness is a non-normal state, but I don't believe it is an injury in the sense that we speak of them with regards to sports - some sort of trauma.



I agree that RJ is a different case from a performance standpoint, but that doesn't mean that he isn't an example of a tall pitcher having difficulty repeating mechanics at times. Pineda has always had very good control, so it's possible that poor mechanics don't affect that facet of his game the same way they do others. Poor mechanics can result in les velo and movement on pitches as well.

There's microtrauma every time a pitcher throws- thus the use of ice after to reduce the effects. There's tearing of the muscle fibers that leads to inflammation. Once the inflammation subsides, w/o proper care, the inflammation can resolve itself in the form of scar tissue that replaces the muscle fibers. The scar tissue is, of course, less flexible, strong and elastic then the muscle tissue. It's just the process of healing the body goes through

The "clues" to me indicate that the injury might have caused the poor mechanics. We'll never know with certainty, but I hope I'm completely wrong and that it was just a temporary loss of mechanics causing the shoulder issues

[Snatch Catch]

There's microtrauma every time a pitcher throws- thus the use of ice after to reduce the effects. There's tearing of the muscle fibers that leads to inflammation. Once the inflammation subsides, w/o proper care, the inflammation can resolve itself in the form of scar tissue that replaces the muscle fibers. The scar tissue is, of course, less flexible, strong and elastic then the muscle tissue. It's just the process of healing the body goes through

The "clues" to me indicate that the injury might have caused the poor mechanics. We'll never know with certainty, but I hope I'm completely wrong and that it was just a temporary loss of mechanics causing the shoulder issues

Understood with regards to the perpetual "injury" incurred by such a repeated, violent, and unnatural motion.

I guess I'm just thinking that showing up 20 lbs overweight and not picking up a baseball for months is a recipe for great success if the goal is for a relatively inexperienced, tall and lanky fireballer to have issues with "weakness" and in-synch mechanics.

If the weakness was what caused the poor mechanics, then there is a pretty solid explanation for that besides having an injury - his shoulder was simply out of shape.

I'm obviously hoping that is the case.

[Shadoux101]

Broken record here.

Pineda showed up to camp out of shape. He is 23 and his body and metabolism changed. He wasn't prepared for it or even thinking about it. He most likely learned this lesson and learned about himself as an athlete. He seems like a great kid who not only has talent but the right frame of mind about improving and the team. It's sad he showed up with a muffin top but again he is very young.

His mechanics weren't close to what they were last year. I mainly see the problem with his legs and a lack of strength there. The lack of strength and balance took away power via poor use of his legs from the start. No drive, no stride, off center and a bigtime loss of torque.

His body and shoulder needed to make up for the mistakes from the very beginning. Pretty much fighting himself trying to correct the other mistakes.

Lost mechanics, lost power, sore shoulder. The poor conditioning casued the injury.

I would be willing to bet this kid comes back strong and never shows up to camp like he did this year.

[jcarey]

Muffin top. Ew.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

Broken record here.

Pineda showed up to camp out of shape. He is 23 and his body and metabolism changed. He wasn't prepared for it or even thinking about it. He most likely learned this lesson and learned about himself as an athlete. He seems like a great kid who not only has talent but the right frame of mind about improving and the team. It's sad he showed up with a muffin top but again he is very young.

His mechanics weren't close to what they were last year. I mainly see the problem with his legs and a lack of strength there. The lack of strength and balance took away power via poor use of his legs from the start. No drive, no stride, off center and a bigtime loss of torque.

His body and shoulder needed to make up for the mistakes from the very beginning. Pretty much fighting himself trying to correct the other mistakes.

Lost mechanics, lost power, sore shoulder. The poor conditioning casued the injury.

I would be willing to bet this kid comes back strong and never shows up to camp like he did this year.

This may be true, but the certainty with which people in this thread toss this stuff around is mind-boggling -- there's just no way one can say that with any certainty. It may have been that, it may be that the velocity wasn't there and he pushed too hard, or it may be that he just had an injury that is affecting mechanics.

Also, the metabolism change at that age isn't going to be all that significant to start this chian in motion.

[Shadoux101]

This may be true, but the certainty with which people in this thread toss this stuff around is mind-boggling -- there's just no way one can say that with any certainty. It may have been that, it may be that the velocity wasn't there and he pushed too hard, or it may be that he just had an injury that is affecting mechanics.

Also, the metabolism change at that age isn't going to be all that significant to start this chian in motion.

Look at some previous posts of mine on this topic with the videos comparing exactly what I mean.

At least look at film yourself. It's incredibly obvious. If you can't see it... then you simply can't see it. If you want help, I can only try. Last year he was higher on his back leg before driving straighter to home. He was lower on release and the hips create tremendous torque.

I don't "just toss things around" either.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

Look at some previous posts of mine on this topic with the videos comparing exactly what I mean.

At least look at film yourself. It's incredibly obvious. If you can't see it... then you simply can't see it. If you want help, I can only try. Last year he was higher on his back leg before driving straighter to home. He was lower on release and the hips create tremendous torque.

I don't "just toss things around" either.

But how do you know, for a fact, that something physical didn't cause a change in mechanics? I'm not saying it did, but it's a reasonable hypothesis.

It's also possible that his mechanics were off, but that he didn't hurt himself till he tried to overthrow to produce more velocity. Just because his mechanics were innefficient doesn't mean that's how he got hurt.

My comment wasn't directed solely at you -- just the idea that we can definitively determine causality

[ieddyi]

"A wrinkle in the Michael Pineda Saga: Turns out that Pineda was slated to arrive at M’s camp Jan. 22 to work out early, just as he did before his great rookie year. Then Pineda got traded, and there was a 10-day lag before it became official. Ultimately, Pineda didn’t arrive in Tampa until Feb. 14, still early, but not as planned. Impossible to know if extra 3 weeks of work would have made difference. But Pineda knows this much: “Next year, I’m coming early. I’m doing my plan.”"

So, a bit of bad timing- not just lazyness

[2JAY]

Broken record here.

Pineda showed up to camp out of shape. He is 23 and his body and metabolism changed. He wasn't prepared for it or even thinking about it. He most likely learned this lesson and learned about himself as an athlete. He seems like a great kid who not only has talent but the right frame of mind about improving and the team. It's sad he showed up with a muffin top but again he is very young.

His mechanics weren't close to what they were last year. I mainly see the problem with his legs and a lack of strength there. The lack of strength and balance took away power via poor use of his legs from the start. No drive, no stride, off center and a bigtime loss of torque.

His body and shoulder needed to make up for the mistakes from the very beginning. Pretty much fighting himself trying to correct the other mistakes.

Lost mechanics, lost power, sore shoulder. The poor conditioning casued the injury.

I would be willing to bet this kid comes back strong and never shows up to camp like he did this year.

Which is all well and good but if Montero has a solid season in Seattle, there will be a firestorm in the Yankee community and Pineda will never hear the end of it.

[bomber999]

Which is all well and good but if Montero has a solid season in Seattle, there will be a firestorm in the Yankee community and Pineda will never hear the end of it.

And that would be a mistake. As disappointed as I am with the beginning of Pineda's Yankee career, I do think that he is an excellent young arm with front-end potential and that this experience may be a wake-up call for him to improve his conditioning and take nothing for granted. A young, potential front-end starter is more valuable than a DH, including a potential masher like Montero. The only thing that will annoy me about the trade is if it turns out Montero can actually play catcher at the ML level, and the Yankee brass inaccurately evaluated this.

[DJ27]

And that would be a mistake. As disappointed as I am with the beginning of Pineda's Yankee career, I do think that he is an excellent young arm with front-end potential and that this experience may be a wake-up call for him to improve his conditioning and take nothing for granted. A young, potential front-end starter is more valuable than a DH, including a potential masher like Montero. The only thing that will annoy me about the trade is if it turns out Montero can actually play catcher at the ML level, and the Yankee brass inaccurately evaluated this.

Yes......... this.

[Gigi Buffon]

So best case scenario is that we gave up Montero for a guy who showed up for his most important MLB season so out of shape that it created a (hopefully minor) shoulder injury - and oh yeah he's a project that needs his mechanics revamped.

[ajra21]

I truly hope he comes back and is fine. My gut is getting a bad feeling about this whole thing. Of course, this feeling is competely irrational.

[Shadoux101]

Which is all well and good but if Montero has a solid season in Seattle, there will be a firestorm in the Yankee community and Pineda will never hear the end of it.

Well, you did say "if". But, yes, if Monty has a solid season, I have no doubt a good majority will claim how much the Yankees loss. How they gave up a HOF'er for a pitcher who was an obvious bust and too great a risk.

If Montero has a good year and Pineda dosen't, I understand people getting emotional and overreacting. If you can't give it at least 2 full seasons before you decide winners and losers, you might be a great Yankee fan and you might turn out to be right but you're an idiot. If Pineda does nothing this year and then comes back to overpowering form, Yankee fans will be happy.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling you an idiot or that you even think like this. Just responding to how stupid we can be at times.

[Shadoux101]

So best case scenario is that we gave up Montero for a guy who showed up for his most important MLB season so out of shape that it created a (hopefully minor) shoulder injury - and oh yeah he's a project that needs his mechanics revamped.

Best case scenario for me would be that Montero produces and "the guy who showed up out of shape" produces as well. In a few years, Pineda and Campos are both in the Yankees rotation kicking ass and chewing bubble gum (and their all out of gum). We look back and hate the Yankees gave up Jesus but can't honestly say we wouldn't do the trade 10/10 times.

[Mr.Muhozi]

April 16, 2012 by Brien Jackson
Via Marc Carig, Michael Pineda threw a bullpen session today in Tampa. He threw 26 pitches, and had no issues with his shoulder tendinitis, with general manager Brian Cashman using the phrase “all good.” With Pineda throwing bullpen sessions, he should be just about through his rehab schedule now. He’ll need a few more sessions with no issues to avoid a setback, and then it should be off for a minor league rehab sting to face live competition and get stretched out. That should come relatively soon now, I would imagine, probably next week, or even this weekend

Here's me thinking his bullpen was tomorrow

[Snatch Catch]

So best case scenario is that we gave up Montero for a guy who showed up for his most important MLB season so out of shape that it created a (hopefully minor) shoulder injury - and oh yeah he's a project that needs his mechanics revamped.

@ Pineda being a project.

The guy is coming off one of the best rookie seasons a RHP his age has ever produced, in the history of baseball.

[Yankee Tripper]

@ Pineda being a project.

The guy is coming off one of the best rookie seasons a RHP his age has ever produced, in the history of baseball.

Bit of hyperbole there.

This guy scoffs at your asserterion http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ellebo01.shtml as does http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...oodedw01.shtml

But I do agree with you that Pindea is way more than "a project".

[pleasepassthesoup]

Bit of hyperbole there.

This guy scoffs at your asserterion http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ellebo01.shtml as does http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...oodedw01.shtml

But I do agree with you that Pindea is way more than "a project".

In fairness, he did say "one of the best"

[Snatch Catch]

Bit of hyperbole there.

This guy scoffs at your asserterion http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ellebo01.shtml as does http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...oodedw01.shtml

But I do agree with you that Pindea is way more than "a project".

As PPTS points out I said "one of the best", and there's no hyperbole there at all.

And you should probably revisit the Bob Feller claim by looking at your own link. He's not in the conversation.

[Yankee Tripper]

As PPTS points out I said "one of the best", and there's no hyperbole there at all.

And you should probably revisit the Bob Feller claim by looking at your own link. He's not in the conversation.

Ok Bob was 5 years younger than Pindea and Doc 3 years younger than Pineda as rookies. You can throw in Wood & Prior both 21 as rookies.

Pineda had a nice rookie season for sure but I'm trying to figure out the basis of a pitcher with ~170 of 1.03 ERA plus balls is "one of the best right handed rookie seasons" for a player his age.

I guess if you want to go by FIP, k/9 or WHIP you could probably make a fair argument but I still think the statement is hyperbole.

I guess if you want to limit the discussion to 22 year old rookies who are right handed, he probably is top 5 or so on that basis but seems like a forced arbitrary line.

At any rate, I hope we see the Pineda who sat ~94 and dialed it up to 98 on occasion last year when he returns from the DL and that he has the best sophmore campaign of any 23 year old right hander.