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  1. #2251

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    Ok, I guess there's way to much conjecture going on here to base a conversatoin in reality -- a lot is going to depend on what the rotation looks like going into 2013. I'm not suggesting they're going to hold an open spot, but I think it's wide open what the composition of the rest of rotation will look like.

    For instance, if we had the 2012 rotation in 2013, I don't think Pineda would have any problem reclaiming a spot.
    He might if Hughes and Garcia were pitching well.

  2. #2252
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    He might if Hughes and Garcia were pitching well.
    Of course, but that's my point. What is the quality of the replacement? And I think that depends, in part, on how settled the rest of the rotation is
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  3. #2253
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ZIM 2002 View Post
    Something I don't understand - they're saying the tear ocurred DURING spring training. But his velocity was down THROUGHOUT spring training. Doesn't that suggest the damage had already been done and maybe Pineda wasn't telling anyone he was injured, or thought it was normal pain? In any event, to say it happened during spring training doesn't seem to make sense - it seems to just be a way for Cashman to pretend the Yankees didn't do anything wrong in not picking it up earlier. (Earlier in the spring, even if not before the trade)
    In fact, they're saying that the tear itself occurred when they were rehabbing his tendonitis. Not the first time a Yankee rehab protocol resulted in even more serious injury to a pitcher.

    Yes, Montero can hit, and it's bad luck that it's worked out this way so far. But without using hindsight: Pineda wasn't an untested prospect, he'd already shown he could pitch successfully in the major leagues. I still think that's worth trading a 22-year-old DH for, even if that DH does have a terrific bat. Yes, the trade had both high upside and high risk, and so far all we've seen of it is the risk. Sometimes good decisions work out badly (and vice versa), but that doesn't mean they were bad decisions. It just means stuff happens.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  4. #2254

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    Of course, but that's my point. What is the quality of the replacement? And I think that depends, in part, on how settled the rest of the rotation is
    I'm just saying that it's very possible the Yankees could be position to option Pineda back to the minors after his 30 day rehab expires next year. This doesn't need to be some drawn out discussion because there is a lot of time between now and then with all kinds of variables waiting to scramble these eggs some more.

  5. #2255

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    Absolutely not. Cashman made it perfectly clear in his press conference that they got all health records on him and gave him complete physical tests, including an MRI, before finalizing the trade. Their due diligence showed he was perfectly healthy.

    There were no "red flags". The chart of his 2011 starts shows a little drop-off in velocity only in his last game after a 11 day layoff.

    Neither the Mariner FO or the Yankee FO had any reason to think there was any more chance of this happening to Pineda than to any other pitcher. It happened after the trade. Doctors do not see into the future. They are not seers. The world is not controllable. The unpredictable happens. We have to live with it, in baseball and in life.

    Those in this thread who are blaming Cashman for trading for damaged goods or the Mariners for trading damaged goods have absolutely no basis for their accusations. They just want a scapegoat, which of course is typical for disappointed sports fans. It is not surprising that this thread is filled with more silly accusations than most. I understand the frustrations. I share the intense disappointment.

    Some in this thread take the position that you should never trade a top hitter or hitting prospect for a top pitcher because pitchers are more fragile. I respect and understand that position, but disagree with it.

    What I do not respect or understand is the need to scapegoat Cashman or the Mariner FO for this bad luck.
    Thanks for clearing that up, I wasnt aware that doctors couldnt predict the future and that the world is uncontrolable.

  6. #2256
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    I'm just saying that it's very possible the Yankees could be position to option Pineda back to the minors after his 30 day rehab expires next year. This doesn't need to be some drawn out discussion because there is a lot of time between now and then with all kinds of variables waiting to scramble these eggs some more.
    Very fair. We're building a discussion on very shaky ground, and either outcomes is possible. Let's just hope he's back and healthy and makes it an option
    "Welcome to NYYFans, the place where Yankees fans come together to complain about the manner in which our team is winning games" -- Mr. Coffee

  7. #2257

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    I'd like to know how much more thorough a dye contrast MRI is to a normal MRI and whether a team is even allowed to do it as part of a physical before blaming Cashman for not doing so. It sounds like it's never done* so I don't see jumping on Cashman for not doing it. It's also important to point out that a physical isn't just an MRI and nothing else; I'm sure Pineda had to pass through shoulder strength tests as well. After the tendinitis diagnosis, it's seems strange that they didn't do a dye-contrast MRI, but that's almost certainly the doctor's decision and not Cashman's. Unless that's just a screw up, it leads to me believe that there's a reason for it. I'm a big Cashman fan, but I don't want him to start being the team doctor as well.

    *I would be interested to know what type of exam a guy like Ben Sheets has to go through before signing with a team. I can't find any results for a "ben sheets dye contrast" search.

  8. #2258

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    this makes me sad. not because it hurts us this year but because i feel for the guy.
    I'm NO american born confused desi, but i love my yanks!

  9. #2259
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    Is there even a history of GM's intentionally trading damaged goods? I'm drawing a blank.
    Britt Burns and Mike Sirotka say hi.
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  10. #2260
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    Snatch,

    I have to admit I'm down in the dumps. I know most Yankee fans feel the same way. Cashman and his organization need to get to work again and fix what they can as Hughes and Garcia aren't making any of us feel any better right now. What's happening with Betances and Banuelos is making us feel even worse off. I don't know what they have to do, but it has to get better, otherwise, it's going to get much nastier than it is now for Cashman, Girardi, Rothschild and any other pitching guru on the Yankee payroll.
    Yep - this pretty much says it all.

    Maybe now would be a good time to give Oswalt a call?
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  11. #2261

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    I'm just saying that it's very possible the Yankees could be position to option Pineda back to the minors after his 30 day rehab expires next year. This doesn't need to be some drawn out discussion because there is a lot of time between now and then with all kinds of variables waiting to scramble these eggs some more.
    It's more than possible, it is 100% probably if they want it to be. Now, they may not care about optioning him and that's fine if they don't want to. Perhaps he comes back and is ready to pitch and they just plug him in. But if they do want to stall his clock they can do it and there is nothing he can do about it.

    I KNOW people are familiar with the cliches you hear from managers when asked why they made some silly rotation decision and they say something like "I just liked the way so and so was throwing the ball." IF, and this is the only part that is hypothetical, if they want to stall his clock, all they need to do is have 5 warm bodies they could put ahead of him. Sign some veteran for cheap and plug him in and say you felt good about his veteranness. You just didn't feel right about the way Pineda was attacking hitters.

  12. #2262
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by justtxyank View Post
    It's more than possible, it is 100% probably if they want it to be. Now, they may not care about optioning him and that's fine if they don't want to. Perhaps he comes back and is ready to pitch and they just plug him in. But if they do want to stall his clock they can do it and there is nothing he can do about it.

    I KNOW people are familiar with the cliches you hear from managers when asked why they made some silly rotation decision and they say something like "I just liked the way so and so was throwing the ball." IF, and this is the only part that is hypothetical, if they want to stall his clock, all they need to do is have 5 warm bodies they could put ahead of him. Sign some veteran for cheap and plug him in and say you felt good about his veteranness. You just didn't feel right about the way Pineda was attacking hitters.
    All true, but the bottom line is that I don't remember them ever having done this in the past, and I'm not sure they would if they really thought Pineda was the better option to win games. But, as we said above, we have no idea how this all is going to look next year
    "Welcome to NYYFans, the place where Yankees fans come together to complain about the manner in which our team is winning games" -- Mr. Coffee

  13. #2263

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BRNXBMRS View Post
    Thanks for clearing that up, I wasnt aware that doctors couldnt predict the future and that the world is uncontrolable.
    Your welcome.

    It is human nature to want to sacrifice a goat, or a GM or at least a doctor, when the world doesn't behave as we expect and hope. So I can easily understand the frustrated posters in this thread.

  14. #2264
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    on the bright side, we're really, really good as an organization in terms of developing relief pitchers
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  15. #2265

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Other than it being a complete and total violation of the CBA, no no reason at all.
    Really? Had no idea that was in the CBA. Can't say I agree with it. You have a player who has option years left and is sitting on the DL for an entire year, and he accrues service time toward arbitration eligibility and free agency. And its not like he's an established player. He came up for the first time with a different organization. Who is to say he would have made the team out of ST? Was he on the 40 man roster?
    Mariano Rivera was so great he was able to close a Denny's.

  16. #2266

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfallibleOne View Post
    Really? Had no idea that was in the CBA. Can't say I agree with it. You have a player who has option years left and is sitting on the DL for an entire year, and he accrues service time toward arbitration eligibility and free agency. And its not like he's an established player. He came up for the first time with a different organization. Who is to say he would have made the team out of ST? Was he on the 40 man roster?
    he pitched last year in the majors, he couldnt be removed from the 40 man without a DFA and waivers
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  17. #2267
    Trade Bait Mr.Muhozi's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by flymick24 View Post
    on the bright side, we're really, really good as an organization in terms of developing relief pitchers
    Ever the optimist.
    40 pitchers, ever, have an ERA+ of 130 or higher for their career. 15 have 140 or higher. 3 guys have 150 or higher - one is right at 150, the second place guy is at 154, and Mariano Rivera is at 205.

  18. #2268
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Hey my friends, again we discuss another injury an this comes after trading away or best hitting prospect. This time the Yankees claim that this young pitching phenom was 100% when they traded away our best young hitter. I think what they're claiming is that while trying to help his problem, it was our coaches or brain trust that were bringing him along to help fix his minor shoulder injury, when a large tear had developed.

    Again, at least for me to have him throwing at all without knowing what's wrong, and knowing how much is at stake, did we even know the extent of his injury? Before having him long tossing which I believe was what finished his shoulder off. I know one thing is that your elbow and shoulder better be feeling great, before anyone attempts to long toss at all.

  19. #2269

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/stor...ck-better-ever

    FWIW

    If its me, I take my time and don't set a time table less than at least 12 months.

  20. #2270

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NoodleRay View Post
    Hey my friends, again we discuss another injury an this comes after trading away or best hitting prospect. This time the Yankees claim that this young pitching phenom was 100% when they traded away our best young hitter. I think what they're claiming is that while trying to help his problem, it was our coaches or brain trust that were bringing him along to help fix his minor shoulder injury, when a large tear had developed.

    Again, at least for me to have him throwing at all without knowing what's wrong, and knowing how much is at stake, did we even know the extent of his injury? Before having him long tossing which I believe was what finished his shoulder off. I know one thing is that your elbow and shoulder better be feeling great, before anyone attempts to long toss at all.
    Foreigners have weaker shoulders-- it's a fact.
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  21. #2271
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post
    http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/stor...ck-better-ever

    FWIW

    If its me, I take my time and don't set a time table less than at least 12 months.
    That is encouraging, and I absolutely agree. They better not go Joba'09 on us and rush him back. The next 4 years are more important than 2012 alone.

    A super-streched silver lining (REALLY stretching here) is what was pointed out in the article... I'm sure he will be on a highly supervised, rigorous rehab regimen. If laziness was an issue, it won't be an option here and hopefully this sets him on a course to be fanatical about conditioning going forward. At least until the end of his career where he can become a fat ball of goo like Schilling.

  22. #2272

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Yeah, it is encouraging. Schilling normally scoffs at anything Yankees related, so either he was just stroking is own ego, or he has a heart for Pineda because of the similar injury.

  23. #2273

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    That is encouraging, and I absolutely agree. They better not go Joba'09 on us and rush him back. The next 4 years are more important than 2012 alone.

    A super-streched silver lining (REALLY stretching here) is what was pointed out in the article... I'm sure he will be on a highly supervised, rigorous rehab regimen. If laziness was an issue, it won't be an option here and hopefully this sets him on a course to be fanatical about conditioning going forward. At least until the end of his career where he can become a fat ball of goo like Schilling.
    Joba didn't have shoulder surgery either which is quite different than Pineda. You noticed in the article it talks about how the rotator cuff injury is worse than just tearing the labrum.

  24. #2274
    Trade Bait Mr.Muhozi's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Foreigners have weaker shoulders-- it's a fact.
    ಠ_ಠ

    ..
    40 pitchers, ever, have an ERA+ of 130 or higher for their career. 15 have 140 or higher. 3 guys have 150 or higher - one is right at 150, the second place guy is at 154, and Mariano Rivera is at 205.

  25. #2275

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I'm sure he will be on a highly supervised, rigorous rehab regimen.


    /thanks for the chance to post this again... kind of got lost in the shuffle yesterday
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