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  1. #1401
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Bit of hyperbole there.

    This guy scoffs at your asserterion http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ellebo01.shtml as does http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...oodedw01.shtml

    But I do agree with you that Pindea is way more than "a project".
    Feller walked nearly 7 per 9, I'm not sure how they're comparable.

  2. #1402
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    Feller walked nearly 7 per 9, I'm not sure why they're comparable.
    Well Pindea broke in at 22 and had 103 ERA+, Feller broke in at 17 and had a 155 ERA+, albiet in just 62 innings. But by the time Bob completed his age 22 season he was already a 36 WAR player.

    You can put Fidrych in there who at age 21 hrew 250 IP of 155 ERA+ ball won the ROY and finsihed 2nd in the CY young voting.

    Or how about Tom Seaver who broke in at age 22 with 251 innings of 122 ERA+ ball.

    Justin Verlander only threw 11 poor innings as a 22 year old but his age 23 rookie season sure was bit more impressive with 186 IP of 126 ERA ball.

    I guess when I think of outstanding rookie years from young pitchers, Michael Pineda just doesn't jump to the top of my list.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  3. #1403
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Ok Bob was 5 years younger than Pindea and Doc 3 years younger than Pineda as rookies. You can throw in Wood & Prior both 21 as rookies.

    Pineda had a nice rookie season for sure but I'm trying to figure out the basis of a pitcher with ~170 of 1.03 ERA plus balls is "one of the best right handed rookie seasons" for a player his age.

    I guess if you want to go by FIP, k/9 or WHIP you could probably make a fair argument but I still think the statement is hyperbole.

    I guess if you want to limit the discussion to 22 year old rookies who are right handed, he probably is top 5 or so on that basis but seems like a forced arbitrary line.

    At any rate, I hope we see the Pineda who sat ~94 and dialed it up to 98 on occasion last year when he returns from the DL and that he has the best sophmore campaign of any 23 year old right hander.
    Wow, you're more willing to rely on ERA+ than FIP, K/9, or even WHIP as an indicator of how good a rookie pitcher really is?

    Since 1901, here is where Pineda's season last year ranks among all rookie RHP 22 or younger who made at least 25 starts:

    K/BB: 4th
    K/9: 5th
    H/9: 7th
    WHIP: 5th


    Looking at the same criteria (RHP, 22 or younger as rookie, at least 25 GS), but focusing on just the DH Era (last 40 years) and the American League, here are the same rankings:

    K/BB: 1st
    K/9: 2nd
    H/9: 1st
    WHIP: 2nd


    There's really not any hyperbole at all in the statement I made.

    And we agree on one thing for sure: I just want him to get healthy and get out there to put that level of talent on display for my favortie team.
    Mo' Nut: One Smoove Brotha.

    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  4. #1404
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    Wow, you're more willing to rely on ERA+ than FIP, K/9, or even WHIP as an indicator of how good a rookie pitcher really is?
    Silly me relying in a thing like runs allowed relative to league average to evaluate a season.

    I agree that your meassures are a better indicator of future sucess (which is one of the many reasons I actually liked the trade) but disagree with them when evaluating great seasons, unless they come along with a similarly impressive ERA.

    I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  5. #1405
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Silly me relying in a thing like runs allowed relative to league average to evaluate a season.

    I agree that your meassures are a better indicator of future sucess (which is one of the many reasons I actually liked the trade) but disagree with them when evaluating great seasons, unless they come along with a similarly impressive ERA.

    I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one.
    I actually agree with you largely in your definitions, but for me the conversation generated from the standpoint of Pineda as a project, which is refuted by the raw results of his rookie season.

    For me, in the discussion of a young pitcher being evaluated historically, the indicators of future success are much better measures of a "good year" than simple run prevention. Fidrych had an historic rookie season in isolation, but even if he doesn't get hurt, that season's results appear to be largely based on gimmicks and luck, not so much actually being an historically good young pitcher.

    Basically, for my taste the peripherals that best indicate future success for pitchers are the best way of measuring just how "good" a rookie season is, because the very reason one even cares to qualify youth and/or rookieness in a discussion of this sort is because there is hope of significantly more success going forward.
    Mo' Nut: One Smoove Brotha.

    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  6. #1406
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    I see where you are coming from. I guess we are just approching it from different directions.

    I think a guy with great peripherals (Pineda) but has a "so-so" season W/L and or ERAwise is likely to show a lot more promise than the the the rookie who has a great year but suspect peripherals (Hellickson maybe?) or if you want to go back further, Fidrych like you say.

    But I think you'll find that only real hardcore stats pruist find greatness in a season where the ERA is right around league average.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  7. #1407
    Off To Never Never Land Mr.Muhozi's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/...el_pineda.html

    Michael Pineda will pitch in an extended spring training game Saturday in Tampa, Fla. It will be the right-hander's first game action since landing on the 15-day disabled list with shoulder tendinitis. He's expected to go two innings
    40 pitchers, ever, have an ERA+ of 130 or higher for their career. 15 have 140 or higher. 3 guys have 150 or higher - one is right at 150, the second place guy is at 154, and Mariano Rivera is at 205.

  8. #1408

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Joel Sherman@Joelsherman1 Pineda IP in extend spring, still felt some shoulder weakness, shut down, #Yankees will determine next few days how to proceed

  9. #1409
    Off To Never Never Land Mr.Muhozi's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    Joel Sherman@Joelsherman1 Pineda IP in extend spring, still felt some shoulder weakness, shut down, #Yankees will determine next few days how to proceed
    .
    40 pitchers, ever, have an ERA+ of 130 or higher for their career. 15 have 140 or higher. 3 guys have 150 or higher - one is right at 150, the second place guy is at 154, and Mariano Rivera is at 205.

  10. #1410

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    27 World Championships
    40 AL Pennants
    Liberated France Twice

  11. #1411

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    at this point, i just want to to be healthy any time this season

  12. #1412
    NYYF Triple Crown


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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Shoulder weakness is usually code word for something more serious. I hope I am wrong.

  13. #1413

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    If this is a rotator cuff tear I won't be happy.


  14. #1414
    Lets go Yankees BxBomber44's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    you have to be kidding. this trade is starting to smell more and more like a fish factory


  15. #1415
    NYYF Cy Young


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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    I really hope it's not his lisfranc

  16. #1416
    NYYF Legend


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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Ay caramba.

  17. #1417

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoVaughnEatsAlot View Post
    I really hope it's not his lisfranc
    hahaha
    27 World Championships
    40 AL Pennants
    Liberated France Twice

  18. #1418

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1
    Emailed Cashman about Pineda's setback. Response: "Of course I am concerned - don't have an answer." #Yankees


    Sherman reported that the Yankees will determine how to proceed with the young righty over the next few days. He will be examined by the team doctor to determine if something beyond the originally diagnosed tendinitis is creating the problem


  19. #1419
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    I can't help but wonder if the Yanks should have been as concerned as some on this board were when Pineda was topping out at 90MPH 10-14 days before the season was supposed to start.

  20. #1420
    NYYF MVP

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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    I can't help but wonder if the Yanks should have been as concerned as some on this board were when Pineda was topping out at 90MPH 10-14 days before the season was supposed to start.
    You can be sure they had his radar gun readings from last years ST which were at their norm.

    Of course they were concerned but they meaning the front office weren't going to tell the media that they had to project calmness and non overreaction to the NY media and beat writers.

  21. #1421

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    The Yankees need to stop playing around with him and send him to the best doctor to determine if there is any structural damage. If they didn't inject dye into the shoulder during the last MRI, they better do so now as they need to see if this a physical condition or mental one for this young man.

  22. #1422
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    [U][COLOR=#0084b4][B]
    Marc Carig@MarcCarig
    A "somewhat significant" setback for Pineda, Girardi said.
    Oy.....
    Goin for 2<strike>7</strike>8!

  23. #1423

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    I can't help but wonder if the Yanks should have been as concerned as some on this board were when Pineda was topping out at 90MPH 10-14 days before the season was supposed to start.
    I've been disappointed with the Yanks handling of him since day 1. It boggles my mind that the Yanks didn't keep tabs on him and his conditioning prior to his reporting to camp 20 lbs overweight and out of shape. You'd think that they'd be concerned with every minute detail regarding Pineda and keep tabs on him over the winter, especially after you trade your #1 prospect/potential star for him.

    Perhaps, if he came into camp in shape and well-conditioned, this might not have happened. He may have hurt his arm compensating for the lack of velocity, or overthrowing in order to find it. All speculation of course, but I think they're reasonable concerns.

    I'm rarely confident with any pitching decisions the Yankees make - whether it's a trade, free agent signing, development of their pitchers, fixing mechanics, "rules", and initial diagnosis and treatment of injuries. Something seems amiss within the organization.


  24. #1424
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Jack Z must be laughing his ass off right about now...
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  25. #1425

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    I've been disappointed with the Yanks handling of him since day 1. It boggles my mind that the Yanks didn't keep tabs on him and his conditioning prior to his reporting to camp 20 lbs overweight and out of shape. You'd think that they'd be concerned with every minute detail regarding Pineda and keep tabs on him over the winter, especially after you trade your #1 prospect/potential star for him.

    Perhaps, if he came into camp in shape and well-conditioned, this might have never happened. He may have hurt his arm compensating for hi lack of velocity, or overthrowing in order to find it. All speculation of course, but I think they're reasonable concerns.

    I'm never confident with any pitching decisions the entire Yankee organization make - whether it's a trade, free agent signing, development of their pitchers, fixing mechanics, "rules", and diagnosis of injuries. Something seems amiss within the organization.
    I understand you feel that way but it mainly has to do with how much you know about the Yankees compared to every other franchise. You know much more about their prospects who don't live up to the hype as compared to just about any other team.

    In reality, this happens to every Major league team.
    You know they are not real pies, right?

    "I heard Jackie Bradley junior was already voted to the ASG....for the next three years." - NerfBall55 4/4/2013

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