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  1. #1251
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    So in the end, was his velocity down because of a shoulder injury? What's the explanation?
    How could there possibly be certainty about the causation of something so complicated? we don't even fully understand either velocity/pitcher's mechanics or shoulders (we have general ideas, but anyone that pretends its a quantitative science isn't worth paying attention to). come on

  2. #1252
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace View Post
    How could there possibly be certainty about the causation of something so complicated? we don't even fully understand either velocity/pitcher's mechanics or shoulders (we have general ideas, but anyone that pretends its a quantitative science isn't worth paying attention to). come on
    Relax. I wasn't around all day and was asking if any news came out.

  3. #1253
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    Relax. I wasn't around all day and was asking if any news came out.
    My point is that that news will never come out, and it never has before. Until their arms are metal and hydraulics, its conjecture, and we all know it

  4. #1254

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    I just hope this isn't Joba again.

  5. #1255
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace View Post
    My point is that that news will never come out, and it never has before. Until their arms are metal and hydraulics, its conjecture, and we all know it
    Couldn't the MRI today have possibly revealed that Pineda had been battling mild shoulder inflammation for a few weeks, which in turn caused his reduced velocity?

  6. #1256
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    Couldn't the MRI today have possibly revealed that Pineda had been battling mild shoulder inflammation for a few weeks, which in turn caused his reduced velocity?
    Not being a doctor myself (of course) but knowing how an MRI machine works, it takes an image of a present condition, like any other diagnostic. It doesn't provide conclusive proof of the past, and even if it did, there's still no obvious causation link. He could have strained his shoulder 3 weeks ago trying to throw harder

    But all of this doesn't matter. Just think about it. When has there ever been beyond-a-doubt proof of shoulder inflammation causing decreased velocity? This inarguable proof is not obtainable with present medical/baseball knowledge and techniques, and i think that should go without saying

  7. #1257
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace View Post
    Not being a doctor myself (of course) but knowing how an MRI machine works, it takes an image of a present condition, like any other diagnostic. It doesn't provide conclusive proof of the past, and even if it did, there's still no obvious causation link. He could have strained his shoulder 3 weeks ago trying to throw harder

    But all of this doesn't matter. Just think about it. When has there ever been beyond-a-doubt proof of shoulder inflammation causing decreased velocity? This inarguable proof is not obtainable with present medical/baseball knowledge and techniques, and i think that should go without saying
    I guess I'm just hoping we could have at least had some sort of reasonable excuse as to why his velocity was down.

  8. #1258

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    the MRI ruled out a severe injury, so that leaves fatigue and lack of conditioning.
    always reasonable

  9. #1259

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    the MRI ruled out a severe injury, so that leaves fatigue and lack of conditioning.
    You can't say that with any certainty. Sometimes tendonitis comes from excessive use (as in my own shoulder), but I can't say that was the case here any more than you can say lack of conditioning.
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  10. #1260

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    well, it does eliminate some kind of severe injury no. with that gone it is okay to assume that this is regular tear-down-and-rebuild after a long year of pitching
    always reasonable

  11. #1261

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    I'm trying very, very hard to stay positive about this trade. Pavano, Igawa, Wright, Javy Part 2, Kevin Brown just cost money or marginal players who did not figure into the team's plans. Pineda cost us our best prospect in years. If he is a bust, the narrative of Brian Cashman's ineptitude in re: evaluating and acquiring pitching goes viral.

  12. #1262

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    well, it does eliminate some kind of severe injury no. with that gone it is okay to assume that this is regular tear-down-and-rebuild after a long year of pitching
    I really don't know. A lot of guys get tendonitis from working out a lot-- that doesn't seem to be the case with Pineda. Maybe it is from pushing himself too hard in spring (which could be a result of coming in out of shape). If it was from last season's pitching, I think they would have seen something in the previous MRIs.
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  13. #1263

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    I'm trying very, very hard to stay positive about this trade. Pavano, Igawa, Wright, Javy Part 2, Kevin Brown just cost money or marginal players who did not figure into the team's plans. Pineda cost us our best prospect in years. If he is a bust, the narrative of Brian Cashman's ineptitude in re: evaluating and acquiring pitching goes viral.
    I'd hate to see you when you're not trying to be positive.
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  14. #1264

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I'd hate to see you when you're not trying to be positive.
    I think you have.

  15. #1265
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    this could have been so much worse. Tendinitis is probably the best case considering what else it could have been.

    it explains some things, so let the kid heal up and he'll be a very nice boost once he does
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  16. #1266

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by smckdwn989 View Post
    this could have been so much worse. Tendinitis is probably the best case considering what else it could have been.

    it explains some things, so let the kid heal up and he'll be a very nice boost once he does
    Aside from the tendinitis, it is very concerning that Pineda had the opportunity to be a front-end starter for the NYY and responded by showing up completely out of shape. It does speak to where he has been mentally- and it does make one question his dedication to his craft, his competitiveness, and his commitment to the team. Maybe he needs a season down in AAA to remind him that nothing is given to anyone in the ML, and he will have a spot in the rotation if and only if his effort and performance warrant this honor.

  17. #1267
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    I'm trying very, very hard to stay positive about this trade. Pavano, Igawa, Wright, Javy Part 2, Kevin Brown just cost money or marginal players who did not figure into the team's plans. Pineda cost us our best prospect in years. If he is a bust, the narrative of Brian Cashman's ineptitude in re: evaluating and acquiring pitching goes viral.
    The guy's got tendonitis. If Montero pulls his groin next week, do you think that should change Mariner fans' perspective on the deal?
    "Welcome to NYYFans, the place where Yankees fans come together to complain about the manner in which our team is winning games" -- Mr. Coffee

  18. #1268

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I really don't know. A lot of guys get tendonitis from working out a lot-- that doesn't seem to be the case with Pineda. Maybe it is from pushing himself too hard in spring (which could be a result of coming in out of shape). If it was from last season's pitching, I think they would have seen something in the previous MRIs.
    cash said he was working like a fiend in spring so that may be it. although, i have no idea what he is doing as exercise
    always reasonable

  19. #1269

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    So in the end, was his velocity down because of a shoulder injury? What's the explanation?
    As someone else pointed out what we are seeing with Pineda is not uncommon for young pitchers. Most teams in the minors have a couple of hitters that can do damage. Major league lineups are deep and just about every inning is stressful. Like Hughes, Porcello, and countless others, his arm my need some time to bounce back from the stress of his first major league season as a starter. If I'm the Yankees I would not rush him back.

  20. #1270
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    Aside from the tendinitis, it is very concerning that Pineda had the opportunity to be a front-end starter for the NYY and responded by showing up completely out of shape. It does speak to where he has been mentally- and it does make one question his dedication to his craft, his competitiveness, and his commitment to the team. Maybe he needs a season down in AAA to remind him that nothing is given to anyone in the ML, and he will have a spot in the rotation if and only if his effort and performance warrant this honor.
    baseball is an interesting game, athletes don't need to all have 8% bodyfat to excel. just ask david wells or cc sabathia. i'm not going to kill the guy for coming to camp 20 pounds overweight, because I don't believe it directly impacts his performance. i think being around professionals like the yankees will have a big time impact on pineda's maturing as a pitcher.
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  21. #1271

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrusader View Post
    Cashman is the guy that from all accounts initiated the conversation sometime in December so sure Cashman leans on people like Billy Eppler but at the end of the day it's Cashman's decision.

    Jesus Montero is also a talented cost controlled 23 year old.

    Everybody said it was a old fashioned baseball trade, talent for talent and yes it's too quick to judege but you're making it seem like it was a clear cut trade and that Sanchez made him expendable etc. which is simply not the case.

    It's not a clear cut trade it was again talent for talent and not a salary dump by one team

    One can understand the logic of why both sides made the trade the Yankees solidifying their rotation with a top young cost controlled arm while the Mariners helping their anemic crap offense with a potential middle of the order 23 year old cost controlled bat.

    Hopefully the trade works out for both teams but 2-3 years from now one GM can come off looking better then the other in this old fashioned talent for talent baseball trade.
    To be precise, Jesus Montero just turned 22 years of age last November ... and the trade can still work out to the benefit of both teams.

  22. #1272
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    The guy's got tendonitis. If Montero pulls his groin next week, do you think that should change Mariner fans' perspective on the deal?
    He got tendonitis, a condition that typically results from high work load/over working a tendon in spring training. It's not like he caught the flu.
    A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!

  23. #1273
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    the trade can't fairly be evaluated for some time, probably years before we see who the winner is (if applicable)
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  24. #1274
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePinStripes View Post
    He got tendonitis, a condition that typically results from high work load/over working a tendon in spring training. It's not like he caught the flu.
    Which isn't surprising at all because he was ramping up his workload. Your point?
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  25. #1275

    Re: 2012 Michael Pineda Performance Thread

    This a result of conditioning and how he had to change his mechanics due to that. The shoulder was taking a lot more strain then from what I saw last year. His legs were not nearly as strong as they were and he was fighting himself to get the ball on target to the plate. Just go see some of my previous posts about this and you can read exactly how.

    I was very adament about how it was dissapointing he showed up in the shape he did from the very first pictures. I knew this was most likely going to be a regressed year due to a variety of factors. However, we do need to realize he just turned 23. His body is changing and fitness and nutrition are things this guy never even had to think about before. Sure, he is an athlete and we can say he should have know better but again, he is a kid.

    If he ends up learning this lesson and eliminates things he can control (like his conditioning) from this set back with only minor tendonitis. It really is a positive in my opinion.

    I think Pineda will only grow from this.
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