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  1. #51
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    I understand this 100%.
    I do not agree with it.
    There is a difference.
    So if, say, you go out sleepwalking and shoot somebody to death, you should be criminally liable for it?

  2. #52
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by RYMASTER or Ryan_Yankees View Post
    So if, say, you go out sleepwalking and shoot somebody to death, you should be criminally liable for it?
    Is the person any less dead? I would say so.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  3. #53
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Then I just have no idea how you reach your position. I don't understand how you justify finding someone culpable and holding him responsible under those circumstances.
    I admit I have zero expertise on the subject of mental illness, and I am assuming given the lack of any other information that this individual literally was allowed to walk free. To me, it's less about holding him accountable or responsible than it is protecting the rest of society from the type of ill person that could stab his own brother to death for some unknown reason.

  4. #54
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Anyone who wants to understand the background of this story should read "17 Days in November" by Wright Thompson on ESPN.com. (Chad Jennings posted a link to it on LoHud a few days ago.)

    http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...-brother-jason

  5. #55

    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by ARodCanoMelky View Post
    Not the same as the Ramos case, but Ugueth Urbina mother was kidnapped and he was later sentenced to 15 years in Venezuela.
    Urbina was sentenced for attempted murder, unrelated to his mother's kidnapping.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugueth_...der_conviction
    "I usually try to plan my bowel movements before I shower."
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  6. #56

    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Then I just have no idea how you reach your position. I don't understand how you justify finding someone culpable and holding him responsible under those circumstances.
    I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you have some background in mental health. You seem to have a very good understanding on how it works without the common misconceptions that go along with mental illness. Not to many people outside that line of work have a clue let alone understand it.
    "A nickel ain't worth a dime anymore."

    I love baseball in general and the Yankees just happen to be my favorite team since I knew what baseball was.

  7. #57
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I admit I have zero expertise on the subject of mental illness, and I am assuming given the lack of any other information that this individual literally was allowed to walk free. To me, it's less about holding him accountable or responsible than it is protecting the rest of society from the type of ill person that could stab his own brother to death for some unknown reason.
    I've said that I don't get letting him walk without mandated treatment and monitoring. I wonder how they could determine that this was a one-shot deal, and that he presents no danger at all, even without ongoing treatment of any kind.

    The longer article suggests that he's bipolar. While the vast majority of people with mental illness - even when they're manic and psychotic - the best predictor of future violence is a history of violence. There's also a significant family history of violence. I guess they have some reason for their decision, but I wish I understood it.

    The question of responsibility and culpability had to do with an earlier post, not with this decision in particular.

    geoffman - yes, I'm a psychologist.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  8. #58

    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I've said that I don't get letting him walk without mandated treatment and monitoring. I wonder how they could determine that this was a one-shot deal, and that he presents no danger at all, even without ongoing treatment of any kind.

    The longer article suggests that he's bipolar. While the vast majority of people with mental illness - even when they're manic and psychotic - the best predictor of future violence is a history of violence. There's also a significant family history of violence. I guess they have some reason for their decision, but I wish I understood it.

    The question of responsibility and culpability had to do with an earlier post, not with this decision in particular.

    geoffman - yes, I'm a psychologist.
    Thanks for your learned opinion. Prior to reading the ESPN story I didn't know what to think. It's clear the younger Halman and father have a history of behavior that no one would wish on their worst enemy.
    "It is almost impossible to remember how tragic a place the world is when one is playing golf." -Robert Wilson Lynd



  9. #59

    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I've said that I don't get letting him walk without mandated treatment and monitoring. I wonder how they could determine that this was a one-shot deal, and that he presents no danger at all, even without ongoing treatment of any kind.

    The longer article suggests that he's bipolar. While the vast majority of people with mental illness - even when they're manic and psychotic - the best predictor of future violence is a history of violence. There's also a significant family history of violence. I guess they have some reason for their decision, but I wish I understood it.

    The question of responsibility and culpability had to do with an earlier post, not with this decision in particular.

    geoffman - yes, I'm a psychologist.
    I knew it was something along those lines. Much respect. My wife was going that route.

    I also do not see how they are not at the very least mandating treatment especially given the history. I do not and can not see the logic in that decision. They admitted he was mentally ill and obviously can be a threat. The majority of the mentally ill are non-violent people by nature (despite common misconceptions) but as you said history is the best predictor and the history is definitely there in this case.

    Im not sure if it is the cultural differences or what but someone definitely dropped the ball on this one.
    "A nickel ain't worth a dime anymore."

    I love baseball in general and the Yankees just happen to be my favorite team since I knew what baseball was.

  10. #60

    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Is the person any less dead? I would say so.
    So that's it? If a person dies, it's murder? What about self-defense? What about accidental death? I mean, those people aren't any less dead, are they?

  11. #61
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    So that's it? If a person dies, it's murder? What about self-defense? What about accidental death? I mean, those people aren't any less dead, are they?
    I'll caveat again that I know nothing about mental illness. I don't understand what could compel someone or disconnect them from reality to the extent that they stab their own brother to death. However, I'd bet the farm the odds of recidivism for a self-defense killer are a little lower than for someone mentally insane enough to kill a sibling. Also, the "victim" in the former situation provoked his/her own unfortunate demise. Not so much in this instance. So there's a pretty clear difference.

    I may be putting words in his mouth, but I think YT is trying to say that while the killer may not have known what he was doing, is that of any solace if/when that condition flares up again?

  12. #62
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    So that's it? If a person dies, it's murder? What about self-defense? What about accidental death? I mean, those people aren't any less dead, are they?
    Accidents and self defense are different in my opinion. Accidents can still be manslaughter though.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  13. #63
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I'll caveat again that I know nothing about mental illness. I don't understand what could compel someone or disconnect them from reality to the extent that they stab their own brother to death. However, I'd bet the farm the odds of recidivism for a self-defense killer are a little lower than for someone mentally insane enough to kill a sibling. Also, the "victim" in the former situation provoked his/her own unfortunate demise. Not so much in this instance. So there's a pretty clear difference.

    I may be putting words in his mouth, but I think YT is trying to say that while the killer may not have known what he was doing, is that of any solace if/when that condition flares up again?
    That was actually not what YT was saying. His argument was that the killer should be held fully responsible and sentenced without regard to insanity, and that while treatment rather than jail might be initially indicated, there should be no mitigation in sentencing or time served compared with any other killer.

    As for the interpretation of reality...right now, sitting in my office, I can hear the voices of people whom I can't see. I know those voices are real, and that those people are actually saying the words I hear. In exactly the same way, auditory hallucinations are experienced as completely, concretely real. That's just one example, but it's the same for any other type of perception and for the interpretation of one's surroundings.

    I've been saying consistently that treatment would generally be mandated, and I'm surprised it wasn't in this case. When appropriately treated, though, that psychotic poses no more threat than anyone else.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  14. #64
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    That was actually not what YT was saying. His argument was that the killer should be held fully responsible and sentenced without regard to insanity, and that while treatment rather than jail might be initially indicated, there should be no mitigation in sentencing or time served compared with any other killer.

    As for the interpretation of reality...right now, sitting in my office, I can hear the voices of people whom I can't see. I know those voices are real, and that those people are actually saying the words I hear. In exactly the same way, auditory hallucinations are experienced as completely, concretely real. That's just one example, but it's the same for any other type of perception and for the interpretation of one's surroundings.

    I've been saying consistently that treatment would generally be mandated, and I'm surprised it wasn't in this case. When appropriately treated, though, that psychotic poses no more threat than anyone else.
    The bold I agree with 100%.

    I still think think the mentally ill should be held responsible, particulalry if there is a family history and/or reason to believe there could be a problem before a crime is comitted and the person didn't get treatment. If it is a known issue before hand and the reason the crime is comitted is because the mentally ill person stopped taking his/her meds, then I have much less sympathy for the person who comitted the crime. Not that this was the case here.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  15. #65
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    The bold I agree with 100%.

    I still think think the mentally ill should be held responsible, particulalry if there is a family history and/or reason to believe there could be a problem before a crime is comitted and the person didn't get treatment. If it is a known issue before hand and the reason the crime is comitted is because the mentally ill person stopped taking his/her meds, then I have much less sympathy for the person who comitted the crime. Not that this was the case here.
    The family tried to get help:
    Fifteen hours before her oldest son died, Hanny slipped out of the boys' apartment and sat in her car. She cradled her telephone and made the call to a doctor...The doctor scolded her for being emotional.

    "Do you think he is a danger to himself or anyone else?" he asked.

    Hanny said she didn't know. She wasn't a doctor. He agreed to send someone over. Three hours passed. Jason showered and dressed. He changed clothes. He changed again. He wanted to walk outside but couldn't find his key. Hanny refused to give him one. She called the doctor back and they promised someone would come...

    Around eight, ambulance lights lit the narrow street. Hanny ran downstairs in a panic, worried Jason might see.

    "What's going on?" the doctor asked.

    Hanny, frustrated, told everything again: the disappointments, the pain. They stood on the staircase, which climbed past the living room up to the third floor, where Jason and Gregory each had a bedroom. They quietly went in to see Jason, stretched out on the bed.

    Jason leapt up, cursing, talking fast. Gregory stood in the doorway. The doctor took a step back. Hanny saw fear in her eyes. The doctor said she'd file a report and that the family should call their regular doctor in the morning. Then she fled.
    http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...-brother-jason

    The "fear in her eyes" and "fled" may be embellishing, but clearly the doctor screwed the pooch on this one.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  16. #66
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    That was actually not what YT was saying. His argument was that the killer should be held fully responsible and sentenced without regard to insanity, and that while treatment rather than jail might be initially indicated, there should be no mitigation in sentencing or time served compared with any other killer.

    As for the interpretation of reality...right now, sitting in my office, I can hear the voices of people whom I can't see. I know those voices are real, and that those people are actually saying the words I hear. In exactly the same way, auditory hallucinations are experienced as completely, concretely real. That's just one example, but it's the same for any other type of perception and for the interpretation of one's surroundings.

    I've been saying consistently that treatment would generally be mandated, and I'm surprised it wasn't in this case. When appropriately treated, though, that psychotic poses no more threat than anyone else.
    I'm going to bow out because I know nothing on the subject, but will say that the bolded seems to have a pretty important clause. How often are psychotics appropriately treated initially and on an ongoing basis?

    Thanks for your unique insights on this. I could care less about the punitive side of this considering that the person isn't in their right mind. My line of concern is around ongoing safety of whomever comes into contact with this type of individual.

  17. #67
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I'm going to bow out because I know nothing on the subject, but will say that the bolded seems to have a pretty important clause. How often are psychotics appropriately treated initially and on an ongoing basis?

    Thanks for your unique insights on this. I could care less about the punitive side of this considering that the person isn't in their right mind. My line of concern is around ongoing safety of whomever comes into contact with this type of individual.
    That's my concern, also, which is why I was so surprised at the confidence of the clinicians that this was a one-shot deal, that Jason Halman doesn't pose any danger and could be released outright. I can't imagine how I could be 100% convinced of that, and if I were only 99% convinced, I wouldn't take the chance - I'd at least want him to have treatment.

    In the more general case: I'd expect the initial treatment to work well enough, though it might take a couple of tries to find the right meds. The ongoing treatment is usually the bigger issue, and a strong support system (family, group home, supported-living, something) needs to be in place for discharge. If that's there, then both meds and symptoms can be monitored - if you know the person and have some regular contact, you'll usually recognize slippage before it gets to be dangerous. And to be fair, Halman does have a strong family that is likely to recognize warning signs.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  18. #68

    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    The bold I agree with 100%.

    I still think think the mentally ill should be held responsible, particulalry if there is a family history and/or reason to believe there could be a problem before a crime is comitted and the person didn't get treatment. If it is a known issue before hand and the reason the crime is comitted is because the mentally ill person stopped taking his/her meds, then I have much less sympathy for the person who comitted the crime. Not that this was the case here.
    Punishing the mentally ill for a crime is like smacking your dog because it can't speak English. It may make you feel better, but retribution should probably be saved for those that understand the consequences of their actions. And even though punishment can serve as a deterrent to others, rationality is a prerequisite to effective deterrence.


  19. #69

    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    Punishing the mentally ill for a crime is like smacking your dog because it can't speak English. It may make you feel better, but retribution should probably be saved for those that understand the consequences of their actions. And even though punishment can serve as a deterrent to others, rationality is a prerequisite to effective deterrence.
    Thats a good analogy.

    It is so hard to understand unless you have studied it extensively and even then you only have an idea what it is like.

    I happen to know a guy who was given prozac and went extremely psychotic. Ended up locked in his closet because the auditory hallucinations got very bad and he thought the street light and the moon were spying on him. He wasnt violent at all but as paranoid/scared as he was it could have gone that way in a hurry. Luckily he got help (hospitalized) and on the correct meds (after trying them all it seems) and has been pretty much fine since. He was DXed bipolar (after original DX of depression)and has done fine on meds. This was roughly 10 years ago. Noone would ever know he was like that then.

    I still can not for the life of me understand how they did not at least mandate treatment in this case. Sometimes it takes a while to find what works but once you do it can be managed fairly well in the majority of cases.
    "A nickel ain't worth a dime anymore."

    I love baseball in general and the Yankees just happen to be my favorite team since I knew what baseball was.

  20. #70
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    Punishing the mentally ill for a crime is like smacking your dog because it can't speak English. It may make you feel better, but retribution should probably be saved for those that understand the consequences of their actions. And even though punishment can serve as a deterrent to others, rationality is a prerequisite to effective deterrence.
    More like putting a pit bull down because it mauled a child to death but if that's how you feel about it, I probably won't be able to change your mind.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  21. #71

    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    I probably won't be able to change your mind.
    No reason he should. He grasps the concept pretty well.

    We all have our opinions. Without inside information we are all grasping at straws with news from others not directly involved despite what the reports may say. Noone really has a clue what is/was going on in that guys head besides himself and hopefully his doctors.

    The fact remains that mental ILLNESS is called an ILLNESS because guess what? They are sick. There are countless people in jail that are mentally ill and only getting worse. The world as a whole needs to be more aware of mental illness and I dont mean the types who run for SSRIs because they are feeling a bit down. I will leave that can of worms closed for now though.

    Oh and for the record nothing except the first line was to Yankee Tripper. Just wanted to clarify that. I just had to rant a bit because this is one issue I happen to be passionate about. Not necessarily this particular case but mental illness as a whole.
    "A nickel ain't worth a dime anymore."

    I love baseball in general and the Yankees just happen to be my favorite team since I knew what baseball was.

  22. #72
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    i was diagnosed with major depression, anxiety disorder and adhd a while back. i take a couple meds for them - and they flat-out work for me. i'm lucky in that sense. at first i would always hesitate to mention anything like this...but now it's clear to me that if somebody doesn't understand mental illness, (and i don't portend to know even the half of it) then they should be given the opportunity. if they refuse to...then they just identified themselves as somebody i'd probably not want to spend time with...

    anyway...

    i know this crime was committed in the Netherlands, which makes the following statement non-sequitur...but the asylums were generally 'emptied' in what..the early 70s? under Nixon? it would seem to me that a crime committed under some manic or psychotic episode should not mean the mentally ill person should be excused of the crime. it would seem to me that, if you're going to give an ill person their freedom, with that should come the culpability that IF you don't stay on your meds, or if your meds start failing you, then it is up to YOU to get back on them, or get them adjusted. if that means it's on you to make your therapy/counseling/dr appts, then so be it. you're the free one. you're the one who has to maintain the right to stay free.

    as we all do.

    or something.


  23. #73
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    More like putting a pit bull down because it mauled a child to death but if that's how you feel about it, I probably won't be able to change your mind.
    Even if you're putting a pit bull down, you're not holding it responsible in the same way - you're not punishing it, you're doing it for safety because you can't control it. Your sentencing plan is about responsibility, culpability and punishment, because you explicitly don't care if the person presents a danger now or not. You want them to pay for what they did.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  24. #74
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    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Even if you're putting a pit bull down, you're not holding it responsible in the same way - you're not punishing it, you're doing it for safety because you can't control it. Your sentencing plan is about responsibility, culpability and punishment, because you explicitly don't care if the person presents a danger now or not. You want them to pay for what they did.
    That's fine if you want to view it that way. May be that is what I'm saying. I'm not even sure myself but I've always been an eye-for-an-eye type guy, looking to blind the world I guess.

    Yes I want them to get treatment and yes I want them to get better, but you are correct I still want them punished. It is a different opinion form yours and others I understand that. And I really can say which of is right on this.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  25. #75

    Re: Seattle Mariners' Halman Stabbed to Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    That's fine if you want to view it that way. May be that is what I'm saying. I'm not even sure myself but I've always been an eye-for-an-eye type guy, looking to blind the world I guess.

    Yes I want them to get treatment and yes I want them to get better, but you are correct I still want them punished. It is a different opinion form yours and others I understand that. And I really can say which of is right on this.
    Fortunately, I possess the humanity to know that your opinion is abhorrent, and doesn't deserve to be equated with the rational ones presented in this thread. This is a disgusting, barbaric worldview, and I'm thankful that people who think the way you do are few and far between.

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