Penn State child rape scandal.

[trapper700]

I can't believe that there are a lot of people that think they shouldn't get the death penalty. All of this was covered up for the sake of the football program and all the money that comes with its success.

[4bronxbombers]

Technically Paterno did what he was required to do...but damn, he should've and could've done SO much more.

No, he really didn't. I'm sure it doesn't say to report it and if the other parties involved don't take action, just keep quiet, which is what he did.

[grizy]

Step 1



Step 2


But what the'll actually do is


Campus police already protecting the statue.

[JL25and3]

IMO the proper course of action here is for PSU to voluntarily suspend the football program for 4 or 5 years. That will cleanse the school of any focus on the football and force the campus to re-focus on education.

I question whether that would be possible. Without the football program - and the obsession of its fans - I doubt that the university would be able to maintain the academic reputation it now has. It would have difficulty paying top professors, funding research for them, giving need-based scholarships, and so on. All of that and more depends on Penn State football and the money it brings in.

State funding certainly isn't going to do it, because the fact is that Pennsylvania doesn't fund Penn State; Penn State funds Pennsylvania. Demolishing or even suspending the program would probably have a huge economic impact on the state (and it would be devastating locally).

I don't know what the answer is.

[jlw1980]

Yes, but in 2001 when the university was going to go forward with the charges, it was Paterno who told them not to.

I didn't know that. That's awful.

No, he really didn't. I'm sure it doesn't say to report it and if the other parties involved don't take action, just keep quiet, which is what he did.

He notified his superiors per university policy, but obviously should've done much, much more, and it sickens me that he didn't. It sickens me that his superiors didn't, either. It's outrageous and so horrific.

Like Dr. John said, I don't know what the answer is, since suspending the football program would have devastating economic consequences.

[smr15]

So let's see.

As listed elsewhere, here are the infractions that warranted the death penalty for other teams over the years:

Kentucky got it for point shaving
SW Louisiana Basketball because an assistant coach forged a signature on a transcript
SMU Football for paying players
Morehouse soccer for signing guys who played professionally
MacMurray College tennis for offering scholarships, division III cannot offer scholarships.

Ok.... so now, here's the thing. None of these other cases even comes CLOSE to the seriousness of a school football program BRASS not caring if kids were being raped on campus. Repeatedly. Over the period of more than a decade.
All to protect the "good name" of the school and it's stinking football program.

Disgusting.

[Soriambi]

Ok.... so now, here's the thing. None of these other cases even comes CLOSE to the seriousness of a school football program BRASS not caring if kids were being raped on campus. Repeatedly. Over the period of more than a decade.
All to protect the "good name" of the school and it's stinking football program.

Disgusting.

Not just the football program brass, the whole school brass.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

Not just the football program brass, the whole school brass.

Exactly. This isn't just a football program issue -- it's much bigger than that.

[trapper700]

It is UNBELIEVABLE that so many people think that the school's football program shouldn't be punished just because they feel like it isn't a football issue due to it not involving student-athletes directly. That it's just an administration issue. Absurd.

[ZYanksRule]

It is UNBELIEVABLE that so many people think that the school's football program shouldn't be punished just because they feel like it isn't a football issue due to it not involving student-athletes directly. That it's just an administration issue. Absurd.

Here's the only argument to yours': If you punish the football program, you're punishing the current student-athletes on their roster; students who had nothing to do with this case.

If Penn State is given the death penalty, obviously all those student-athletes would have the opportunity to transfer without penalty. But, will all of them be able to find a school? Certainly, some will not, and others will not be able to find an opening in a prestigious conference like the Big Ten. So, you're going to hurt innocent student-athletes by giving a serious penalty to the football program.

Now, you're also punishing the administration, but that's something I think about that gives me pause regarding the death penalty.

[Soriambi]

Here's the only argument to yours': If you punish the football program, you're punishing the current student-athletes on their roster; students who had nothing to do with this case.

If Penn State is given the death penalty, obviously all those student-athletes would have the opportunity to transfer without penalty. But, will all of them be able to find a school? Certainly, some will not, and others will not be able to find an opening in a prestigious conference like the Big Ten. So, you're going to hurt innocent student-athletes by giving a serious penalty to the football program.

Now, you're also punishing the administration, but that's something I think about that gives me pause regarding the death penalty.

I hear what you're saying, but whatever the punishment is, you're going to be hurting people who shouldn't be hurt. If it's a postseason or TV ban, you're going to be costing them money, which is going to hurt both student-athletes and regular students and faculty in the long run, since the football money goes to pay for a lot of stuff that's not football related. I mean, it's an unfortunate situation for anyone at Penn State who had nothing to do with the whole mess, which is the vast majority of people, but I don't think there's any reasonable choice other than to come down hard on the football program.

I've said before that if it's not the death penalty, I think it should be close. No postseason or TV for a while, a ton of lost scholarships in future years, perhaps they could even impose some sort of yearly fine that the football program would need to pay from their profits toward child abuse related charities or something of that sort. I'm not sure if the latter part would be allowed, but in order to avoid the death penalty, the university would almost certainly agree to it (I'm sure they'll be making large donations of this sort anyway), and then at least a bit of good might come from the whole thing. Of course, there are also going to be additional penalties that aren't formally handed out, like a likely huge drop in donations, a huge drop in university prestige, etc.

[Yankee Tripper]

Here's the only argument to yours': If you punish the football program, you're punishing the current student-athletes on their roster; students who had nothing to do with this case.

If Penn State is given the death penalty, obviously all those student-athletes would have the opportunity to transfer without penalty. But, will all of them be able to find a school? Certainly, some will not, and others will not be able to find an opening in a prestigious conference like the Big Ten. So, you're going to hurt innocent student-athletes by giving a serious penalty to the football program.

Now, you're also punishing the administration, but that's something I think about that gives me pause regarding the death penalty.

Oh please, the good players will transfer in no time flat.

I hear what you are saying too and I don't support the death penalty but 5 years probation (no bowl games) and a loss of 50% of scholarships for the next 5 years and any current player of incoming freshman who wants to transfer can with no penalty, I fully support something like that.

[trapper700]

Here's the only argument to yours': If you punish the football program, you're punishing the current student-athletes on their roster; students who had nothing to do with this case.

If Penn State is given the death penalty, obviously all those student-athletes would have the opportunity to transfer without penalty. But, will all of them be able to find a school? Certainly, some will not, and others will not be able to find an opening in a prestigious conference like the Big Ten. So, you're going to hurt innocent student-athletes by giving a serious penalty to the football program.

Now, you're also punishing the administration, but that's something I think about that gives me pause regarding the death penalty.

Slightly off topic, but:

Well, the NCAA has been known to do unfair ................ to student-athletes all the time. Just look at what is going to happen to UConn basketball this year. They instituted a NEW penalty regarding the APR (postseason ban). But is still using it retroactively.

So, even though they wouldn't be punished if they used the current data of the current athletes' grades, they're choosing to arbitrarily use the data of the past, despite changing their policy. And this is after they'd already been punished by suspensions and
loss of scholarships. If this were the government making a law, it would immediately be thrown out because it's illegal to make up arbitrary ................ that works retroactively.

I know, i'm mostly just bitter that the NCAA unfairly is targeting my school because the NCAA president was fired from UConn and still has an ongoing feud with the head coach. But they gave all the "black schools" (that also failed these new rules and penalties) a waiver just because they're less financially stable, essentially making us the only ones to be punished... it's a crock of bull.

[grizy]

PSU will never voluntarily suspend football program. Too much legal hassle with TV/B1G contracts and all.

Easier to just ask for the death penalty.

[Soriambi]

Oh please, the good players will transfer in no time flat.

I hear what you are saying too and I don't support the death penalty but 5 years probation (no bowl games) and a loss of 50% of scholarships for the next 5 years and any current player of incoming freshman who wants to transfer can with no penalty, I fully support something like that.

I think he was probably more concerned with the not so good players, who are playing on a football scholarship but might not be able to get a football scholarship elsewhere (meaning that some might have to quit college if they can't afford tuition.)

[teknetic]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/br...html?viewAll=y

The handful of students and alumni that gathered in Penn State's student center this morning to watch the release of the Freeh report live were stunned when the channel suddenly switched.

...how was this even something someone even thought of?

[ZYanksRule]

I think he was probably more concerned with the not so good players, who are playing on a football scholarship but might not be able to get a football scholarship elsewhere (meaning that some might have to quit college if they can't afford tuition.)

Or, at the very least, many of those students would have to transfer to a much smaller D-I school like Akron.

You go from playing in the Big 10, to playing for a nobody. That's not fair to those students.

Here's another solution: Penn State, for a number of years, is not allowed to take in any football-related income. Their TV money goes to charity, their bowl-game revenue goes to charity, their gate receipts go to charity, their merchandise sales go to charity.

They're allowed to recoup money they spent, but can make no profits from it. And don't try to swindle the NCAA, because you'll be basically stealing money from a charity, and would then fac even stronger punishment when caught.

That might be the best way to mix keeping your promises to the student-athletes, while also punishing Penn State where it hurts the most. This whole scandal took hold because people relished power and money. Take away the money.

[35Knucklecurve]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/br...html?viewAll=y



...how was this even something someone even thought of?

I suppose since this whole ugly, unreal series of events became so much a part of the day-to-day operation at PSU that the Public Relations Office has been scrambling to keep the campus in some kind of protective bubble. Once again, denial comes into play. If they don't see it, it doesn't exist.

As one who is part of a college admissions office, I am very curious to see what the fall enrollment numbers look like for 2012. I'm also curious about the feedback recruiters are getting from prospective applicants, especially those out-of-state.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

Or, at the very least, many of those students would have to transfer to a much smaller D-I school like Akron.

You go from playing in the Big 10, to playing for a nobody. That's not fair to those students.

Here's another solution: Penn State, for a number of years, is not allowed to take in any football-related income. Their TV money goes to charity, their bowl-game revenue goes to charity, their gate receipts go to charity, their merchandise sales go to charity.

They're allowed to recoup money they spent, but can make no profits from it. And don't try to swindle the NCAA, because you'll be basically stealing money from a charity, and would then fac even stronger punishment when caught.

That might be the best way to mix keeping your promises to the student-athletes, while also punishing Penn State where it hurts the most. This whole scandal took hold because people relished power and money. Take away the money.

My issue with all this is that the actions need to go beyond traditional football consequences. Whether they get the death penalty, or things like you are proposing, the failure of leadership went well beyond the football program to the culture of university leadership. I think they also need to do things like settle quickly and painlessly with the victims, publicly accept responsibility for this all, get rid of everyone who was involved in any way, install stronger non-athletic department oversight of the football program, etc. This is a lot more than a football issue.

[ZYanksRule]

My issue with all this is that the actions need to go beyond traditional football consequences. Whether they get the death penalty, or things like you are proposing, the failure of leadership went well beyond the football program to the culture of university leadership. I think they also need to do things like settle quickly and painlessly with the victims, publicly accept responsibility for this all, get rid of everyone who was involved in any way, install stronger non-athletic department oversight of the football program, etc. This is a lot more than a football issue.

There's no question about it. But I was responding to what the punishment should be. Obviously, there needs to be a housecleaning, and there needs to be some different safeguards put in place.

[trapper700]

Ok, I'm going to put up another argument on why Penn State should be punished. Directly from the letter Emmert wrote in November as to why Penn State would be at risk or guilty for lack of institutional control. In it, he lists the applicable rules and it's clear that they could probably do something if they wanted to. And with public sentiment generally (rightfully) against Penn St., it could certainly happen.

http://www.psu.edu/ur/2011/NCAA.pdf

In the letter, Emmert invokes the following rules and required Penn St. to explain why they were not in violation. Penn St. may have a very difficult time if Spanier is indicted along with Curley and Schultz. It isn't Sandusky, but the coverup could eventually sink them.

Article 2.1: The principle of institutional control and responsibility -- "it is the responsibility of each member institution to control its intercollegiate athletics program in compliance with the rules and regulations of the Association. The institution's president or chancellor is responsible for the administration of all aspects of the athletics program. ... The institution's responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staff members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution."
Article 2.4: The principle of sportsmanship and ethical conduct -- athletics should "promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility."
Articles 6.01.1 and 6.4: General principle of institutional control (6.01.1); and Responsibility for actions of outside entities (6.4).
Bylaw 10.01.1: Ethical conduct, general principle of honesty and sportsmanship.
Bylaw 10.1: Unethical conduct -- "Unethical conduct by a prospective or enrolled student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff member, which includes any individual who performs work for the institution or the athletics department even if he or she does not receive compensation for such work, may include, but is not limited to" followed by a list of 10 possible situations. Emmert's letter says unethical conduct "is not limited to" just the 10 scenarios delineated".
Bylaws 11.1.1 and 11.1.2.1: Conducts of athletics personnel with regards to honesty and sportsmanship (11.1.1); and Responsibility of head coach (11.1.2.1) -- The head coach bylaw states, "It shall be the responsibility of an institution's head coach to promote an atmosphere for compliance within the program supervised by the coach and to monitor the activities regarding compliance of all assistant coaches and other administrators involved with the program who report directly or indirectly to the coach."
Bylaw 19.01.2: General principles of exemplary conduct.

[NyQuil]

Ok, I'm going to put up another argument on why Penn State should be punished.

People are not saying that Penn State should not be punished. People are saying the current student-athletes that were five years old when the first offense occured should not be punished.

[Eldee5]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,3569332.story

Penn State: Will the NCAA consider sanctions?

In a statement Thursday, an NCAA spokesman said Penn State must still answer key questions posed by the NCAA concerning compliance with NCAA bylaws: institutional control, ethics policies and the policies and procedures it has in place to monitor, prevent and detect issues raised in a grand jury report on the scandal.

"Penn State's response to the letter will inform our next steps, including whether or not to take action," wrote Bob Williams, the NCAA's vice president of communications.

Michael McCann, director of the Sports Law Institute at Vermont Law School, said the Freeh Report, which details an in-depth investigation led by former FBI chief Louis Freeh, creates a compelling case for the NCAA to sanction Penn State for "lack of institutional control."

Other experts say that if the NCAA's enforcement staff were to become heavily involved in what has largely been a criminal investigation, it could set a new and troubling precedent for how the NCAA polices schools.

"The NCAA works to manage collegiate competition," said Jo Potuto, a former NCAA Division I Committee on Infractions chairwoman who is a professor of constitutional law at the University of Nebraska College of Law. "It's not an association in which the national office is supposed to be a hall monitor for everything that occurs on a campus."

[BobLoblaw]

Penn State has lost their privilege to have a football team, imo.

[trapper700]

Just get rid of the NCAA in general...

http://deadspin.com/5925700/prestigi...letics-program

This is CRAZY. Apparently, the NCAA is now allowed to tell a school what kind of curriculum to give their student-athletes and dictate their academic policies. I also like how CalTech was hit harder than UNC was for making up fake classes.

This policy of CalTech is actually really good because it lets the students choose what classes they want to take towards their degree. And they actually treat their student-athletes as students, instead of coddling them like most other schools do.