View Poll Results: Should be lower the K bonus for pitchers from 1 point to 0.5

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  • Yes, lower to 0.5

    8 61.54%
  • No, keep at a full point

    5 38.46%
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  1. #1
    Re2pect Hitman23's Avatar
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    Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    The proposal is that we reduce the award for strike outs (for pitchers) from a full point to 0.5. This is in an effort to reduce (not eliminate) the disparity between pitching scoring and offense scoring.

    If you are looking for data, Eric was kind enough to take the time and put it together in this thread beginning with this post.

    http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread...=1#post7254109

    Eric, if you'd like to repost what you have in here that would probably be helpful.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Voted No. I'd rather reduce the disparity by awarding hitters more, than taxing dominating pitchers. I really hope this does not go through.

  3. #3
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisRo View Post
    Voted No. I'd rather reduce the disparity by awarding hitters more, than taxing dominating pitchers. I really hope this does not go through.
    It seemed the general idea was to go with lessening the pitchers award rather than taking away the batters penalty. If this doesn't go through, we could still go the other way if the league wants that.

  4. #4
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisRo View Post
    Voted No. I'd rather reduce the disparity by awarding hitters more, than taxing dominating pitchers. I really hope this does not go through.
    Oooh my favorite topic!

    Defend a strikeout being 2x as valuable as a ground-out or fly-out. (Then I will counter with statistics that show that a strikeout is only 1.25x more valuable than a non-strikeout, and we are proposing making it 1.50x more valuable).

    Begin.

  5. #5
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    As far as "dominating" pitchers...who had the better season:

    Roger Clemens: 10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 K
    Rick Sutcliffe: 20-9, 3.64 ERA, 213 K
    John Burkett: 22-7, 3.65, 145 K

    Clemens' 44 extra strikeouts are equal to nearly 9 wins of Sutcliffe! (Who won the NLCYA in his 20-9 season)
    Clemens' 112 extra strikeout are equal to ALL 22 of Burkett's wins!

    ******************************************************

    EDIT: i computed their points scored, per our current scoring system:

    Roger Clemens: 10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 K (637 points)
    Rick Sutcliffe: 20-9, 3.64 ERA, 213 K (680 points)
    John Burkett: 22-7, 3.65, 145 K (615 points)

    In looking at our scoring system, Sutcliffe, with 10 more wins, outscored Clemens by just 43 points (Or 4.3 points per win, and a win is worth 5 points!)

    Clemens actually outscored Burkett, even though Burkett had 12 more wins!

    BUT...if we make K's a half a point, the totals are:

    Clemens, 508.5 points
    Sutcliffe, 573.5 points
    Burkett, 542.5 points

    Personally, I think Burkett, with his 22 wins, should earn more points than Clemens, with his 10 wins. And dropping K's to half a point, while balancing out hitting with pitching, would also balance out this example, too.
    Last edited by Big_E; 06-28-11 at 02:26 PM. Reason: added points per our current scoring system

  6. #6
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    As far as "dominating" pitchers...who had the better season:

    Roger Clemens: 10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 K
    Rick Sutcliffe: 20-9, 3.64 ERA, 213 K
    John Burkett: 22-7, 3.65, 145 K

    Clemens' 44 extra strikeouts are equal to nearly 9 wins of Sutcliffe! (Who won the NLCYA in his 20-9 season)
    Clemens' 112 extra strikeout are equal to ALL 22 of Burkett's wins!
    I am searching but I don't see this Clemens' guy available anywhere...

  7. #7
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    Personally, I think Burkett, with his 22 wins, should earn more points than Clemens, with his 10 wins.
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  8. #8
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Quote Originally Posted by Stupid Flanders View Post
    Joe Morgan, everybody!
    yeah yeah yeah.



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  9. #9
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    awesome.

  10. #10
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Without data on how it would impact the league's scoring (vs. other proposals and ideas), and without information on what else would/wouldn't be changed, I don't feel I can vote either way on this in good conscience. It seems this is trying to be rammed through without having all the data, and if that's what people want, that's fine I suppose, but I'm not going to be voting either way in that case.

  11. #11
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    I linked everyone to the data that Eric posted in the scoring change ideas thread right in the first post. It's based on 2010 stats and I think it's pretty clear.

  12. #12
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    I am also willing to analyze any of today's games to again show that strikeouts, at best, are only 1.25x more important than a fly out or ground out, not 2x as important.

  13. #13
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I linked everyone to the data that Eric posted in the scoring change ideas thread right in the first post. It's based on 2010 stats and I think it's pretty clear.
    As I alluded to in that thread (and in my previous post), it also didn't cover the other proposals (eliminating batter K penalties and leaving pitchers at 1, for instance, among others). It seems like this is the course that it's been decided we're voting on, though. Don't worry, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it; I just wish the scoring change discussion had been handled more thoroughly than this. All we know from E's data is that taking away points from pitchers makes batters more valuable, which is obvious. You'd probably get similar results if you reduced wins to 2 points or outs to half a point or did a whole host of other things. It doesn't tell us what kind of pitchers are going to be the top scorers, etc. For instance, in E's example above, I think that Clemens had the best individual season based solely on those numbers (W-L, ERA, Ks), but he'd lose a ton of value based on this. This is really the only option we've been given for whatever reason, and I think people are voting yes more based on the abstract concept of balancing pitchers and hitters than the specifics of how best to do so.

    I'm probably not going to be back again next season anyway, so it probably won't impact me, but as a member for so many years, I care about what happens to this league in the future. I just think that a lot of ideas were thrown out there and one has been promoted to the top for some reason without an investigation of the impact of that idea (or any of the other ideas.) To be clear, I'm not saying that this certainly isn't the best solution, just that I think we have no clue at this point and we're just voting for the sake of voting because the poll has been started.

  14. #14
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    For instance, in E's example above, I think that Clemens had the best individual season based solely on those numbers (W-L, ERA, Ks)...
    THE DATA:
    Roger Clemens: 10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 K (637 points)
    Rick Sutcliffe: 20-9, 3.64 ERA, 213 K (680 points)
    John Burkett: 22-7, 3.65, 145 K (615 points)

    So you think that K's are so valuable that Clemens had the best season, even though he won half as many games as Rick Sutcliffe (NL CYA winner that year) and John Burkett?

    No offense, but this dumbfounds me.

  15. #15
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    THE DATA:
    Roger Clemens: 10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 K (637 points)
    Rick Sutcliffe: 20-9, 3.64 ERA, 213 K (680 points)
    John Burkett: 22-7, 3.65, 145 K (615 points)

    So you think that K's are so valuable that Clemens had the best season, even though he won half as many games as Rick Sutcliffe (NL CYA winner that year) and John Burkett?

    No offense, but this dumbfounds me.
    Without looking at any other numbers, yes. I think wins are a silly way to evaluate how well a pitcher pitched individually. If that was the only information I had, and I was starting that season again (or the next season), Clemens would easily be the first guy I'd pick from that list, and that's true even without the name recognition.

  16. #16
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Without looking at any other numbers, yes. I think wins are a silly way to evaluate how well a pitcher pitched individually. If that was the only information I had, and I was starting that season again (or the next season), Clemens would easily be the first guy I'd pick from that list, and that's true even without the name recognition.
    I think K's are an even more ridiculous way to assess a pitcher, because K's are almost always meaningless as compared with other outs. At least a win means the team won.

    May 29, 2011: CC Sabathia pitches 8.0 innings, allows 1 ER, 5 H, 3 BB, 5 Ks (8 total base runners). Yanks win
    June 25, 2011: CC Sabathia pitches 8.0 innings, allows 1 ER, 7 H, 1 BB, 9 Ks (8 total base runners). Yanks win.

    Was the June game a "better" game for CC because he had more strike outs?

  17. #17
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Let's look at some of today's games:

    Yankees strike out 14 (13 by Sabathia, 1 by Logan)
    Brewers Strike out 4 (3 by Wolf, 1 by Axelrod)

    BREWERS 1ST
    CC Sabathia pitching:
    Rickie Weeks : Weeks struck out swinging. (Nobody on base. Meaningless.)
    Carlos Gomez : Gomez struck out swinging. (Nobody on base. Meaningless.)
    Ryan Braun : Strike looking, Foul, Braun singled to left.
    Prince Fielder : Fielder struck out swinging. (Ended Inning. Meaningless.)
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 1 Hit, 0 Errors)

    YANKEES 1ST
    Randy Wolf pitching:
    Brett Gardner : Gardner walked.
    Nick Swisher : Swisher walked.
    Mark Teixeira : Teixeira struck out swinging. (ONE, possibly meaningful).
    Robinson Cano : Cano doubled to left, Gardner and Swisher scored.
    Jorge Posada : Posada struck out swinging. (TWO, possibly meaningful).
    Andruw Jones : Jones walked.
    Eduardo Nunez : Nunez fouled out to catcher.
    End of Inning (2 Runs, 1 Hit, 0 Errors)

    BREWERS 2ND
    CC Sabathia pitching:
    Corey Hart : Hart walked.
    Casey McGehee : McGehee grounded into double play third to second to first, Hart out at second.
    Mat Gamel : Gamel struck out swinging. (Ended Inning. Meaningless.)
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors)

    YANKEES 2ND
    Randy Wolf pitching:
    Francisco Cervelli : Cervelli singled to center.
    Ramiro Pena : Pena sacrificed to pitcher, Cervelli to second.
    Brett Gardner : Gardner flied out to right.
    Nick Swisher : Swisher flied out to left.
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 1 Hit, 0 Errors)

    BREWERS 3RD
    CC Sabathia pitching:
    Yuniesky Betancourt : Betancourt reached on an infield single.
    George Kottaras : Kottaras flied out to deep center, Betancourt to second.
    Rickie Weeks : Weeks struck out swinging. (THREE, possibly meaningful).
    Carlos Gomez : Gomez reached on an infield single, Betancourt to third.
    Ryan Braun : Braun walked, Gomez to second.
    Prince Fielder : Fielder struck out swinging. (Ended Inning. Meaningless.)
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 2 Hits, 0 Errors)

    YANKEES 3RD
    Randy Wolf pitching:
    Mark Teixeira : Teixeira homered to left.
    Robinson Cano : Cano hit by pitch.
    Jorge Posada : Posada flied out to left.
    Andruw Jones : Jones singled to center, Cano to second.
    Eduardo Nunez : Nunez flied out to deep center, Cano to third.
    Francisco Cervelli : Cervelli singled to right, Cano scored, Jones to second.
    Ramiro Pena : Pena grounded out to third.
    End of Inning (2 Runs, 3 Hits, 0 Errors)

    BREWERS 4TH
    CC Sabathia pitching:
    Corey Hart : Hart struck out swinging. (Nobody on base. Meaningless.)
    Casey McGehee : McGehee grounded out to second.
    Mat Gamel : Gamel grounded out to shortstop.
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors)

    YANKEES 4TH
    Randy Wolf pitching:
    Brett Gardner : Ball, Gardner flied out to left.
    Nick Swisher : Ball, Swisher singled to left.
    Mark Teixeira : Strike looking, Teixeira grounded into double play second to first, Swisher out at second.
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 1 Hit, 0 Errors)

    BREWERS 5TH
    CC Sabathia pitching:
    Yuniesky Betancourt : Betancourt grounded out to shortstop.
    George Kottaras : Kottaras struck out swinging. (Nobody on base. Meaningless.)
    Rickie Weeks : Weeks struck out swinging. (Ended Inning. Meaningless.)
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors)

    YANKEES 5TH
    Randy Wolf pitching:
    Robinson Cano : Cano flied out to left.
    Jorge Posada : Posada singled to left.
    Andruw Jones : Jones flied out to center.
    Eduardo Nunez : Nunez grounded out to third.
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 1 Hit, 0 Errors)

    BREWERS 6TH
    CC Sabathia pitching:
    Carlos Gomez : Gomez struck out swinging. (Nobody on base. Meaningless.)
    Ryan Braun : Braun singled to center.
    Prince Fielder : Fielder flied out to deep left.
    Corey Hart : Hart struck out swinging. (Ended Inning. Meaningless.)
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 1 Hit, 0 Errors)

    YANKEES 6TH
    Randy Wolf pitching:
    Francisco Cervelli : Cervelli flied out to left.
    Ramiro Pena : Pena grounded out to third.
    Brett Gardner : Gardner grounded out to shortstop.
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors)

    BREWERS 7TH
    CC Sabathia pitching:
    Casey McGehee : McGehee grounded out to shortstop.
    Mat Gamel : Gamel struck out swinging (Nobody on base. Meaningless.)
    Yuniesky Betancourt : Betancourt singled to center.
    George Kottaras : Kottaras struck out swinging.(Ended Inning. Meaningless.)
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 1 Hit, 0 Errors)

    YANKEES 7TH
    Randy Wolf pitching:
    Nick Swisher : Swisher struck out looking. (Nobody on base. Meaningless.)
    Mark Teixeira : Teixeira grounded out to pitcher.
    Robinson Cano : Cano grounded out to pitcher.
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors)

    BREWERS 8TH
    Chris Dickerson in left
    CC Sabathia pitching:
    Rickie Weeks : Weeks popped out to second.
    Carlos Gomez : Gomez grounded out to third.
    Ryan Braun : Braun singled to left.
    Boone Logan relieved CC Sabathia.
    Prince Fielder : Fielder struck out swinging. (Ended Inning. Meaningless.)
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 1 Hit, 0 Errors)


    YANKEES 8TH
    John Axford pitching:
    Jorge Posada : Posada struck out swinging. (Nobody on base. Meaningless.)
    Chris Dickerson : B\Dickerson safe at first on Axford fielding error.
    Eduardo Nunez : Nunez grounded out to first, Dickerson to third.
    Francisco Cervelli : Cervelli singled to center, Dickerson scored.
    Ramiro Pena : Pena flied out to left.
    End of Inning (1 Run, 1 Hit, 1 Error)

    BREWERS 9TH
    Luis Ayala pitching:
    Corey Hart : Hart grounded out to third.
    Casey McGehee : McGehee grounded out to shortstop.
    Mat Gamel : Gamel grounded out to second.
    End of Inning (0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors)


    18 K's combined

    15 meaningless

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  18. #18
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Perhaps we value Ks too highly. Perhaps we value batter Ks too highly. Perhaps we value wins too highly. Perhaps we value outs too highly. Perhaps we value QS too highly. Perhaps we don't value various hitting statistics enough. The issue is that we're not really looking into any of this and a taking a detailed look at what impact various ideas would have on the league (except for the Ks a little bit). I think you keep trying to change the argument.

  19. #19
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    I ran some options in Excel:

    Option A - reduce Ks to 0.5
    Option B - reduce Ws to 3
    Option C - Option A + B

    The results below for the top 100 starters. If people desperately want more choices, or want to know the relief impact, let me know and I'll try to run them.

    I also toyed with the idea of limiting QS to 3, but I don't believe in it - I really like the QS scoring category, and I think it rewards pretty much what we want to reward.

    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania
    Last edited by Saxmania; 07-01-11 at 05:08 AM.

  20. #20
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Current scheme; top 100 starting pitchers:

    Average score: 265
    Max score: 513 (Verlander)
    Min score: 183 (Beachy)

    Code:
    Player	FPTS
    Verlander, Justin SP DET  	513
    Shields, James SP TB  	475
    Weaver, Jered SP ANA   	451
    Halladay, Roy SP PHI 	448
    Lee, Cliff SP PHI  	433
    Kershaw, Clayton SP LA  	408
    Hamels, Cole SP PHI  	399
    Haren, Dan SP ANA  	369
    Hernandez, Felix SP SEA  	358
    Sabathia, CC SP NYY  	353
    Romero, Ricky SP TOR  	348
    Price, David SP TB  	340
    Lincecum, Tim SP SF  	338
    Cain, Matt SP SF  	333
    Kennedy, Ian SP ARI 	333
    Sanchez, Anibal SP FLA  	329
    Pineda, Michael SP SEA  	325
    Hudson, Daniel SP ARI  	324
    Beckett, Josh SP BOS  	321
    Wilson, C.J. SP TEX  	318
    Lester, Jon SP BOS  	316
    Chacin, Jhoulys SP COL  	315
    Lohse, Kyle SP STL  	304
    Gonzalez, Gio SP OAK  	302
    Hanson, Tommy SP ATL  	302
    Jurrjens, Jair SP ATL  	301
    Zimmermann, Jordan SP WAS  	301
    Marcum, Shaun SP MIL  	296
    Baker, Scott SP MIN  	292
    Garcia, Jaime SP STL  	292
    Stauffer, Tim RP SD  	282
    Tomlin, Josh SP CLE  	274
    Ogando, Alexi RP TEX   	273
    Cahill, Trevor SP OAK  	272
    Humber, Philip RP CHW  	271
    Gallardo, Yovani SP MIL  	267
    Masterson, Justin SP CLE  	266
    Norris, Bud SP HOU  	264
    Hellickson, Jeremy RP TB 	263
    Hudson, Tim SP ATL  	259
    Maholm, Paul SP PIT  	257
    Bedard, Erik SP SEA 	256
    Lewis, Colby SP TEX  	255
    Fister, Doug SP SEA  	253
    Wolf, Randy SP MIL  	253
    Vargas, Jason SP SEA  	252
    Carpenter, Chris SP STL  	251
    Nolasco, Ricky SP FLA  	251
    Vogelsong, Ryan RP SF  	250
    Kuroda, Hiroki SP LA  	248
    Correia, Kevin SP PIT  	247
    Carrasco, Carlos SP CLE  	246
    Karstens, Jeff SP PIT  	246
    Rodriguez, Wandy SP HOU  	245
    Santana, Ervin SP ANA  	244
    Burnett, A.J. SP NYY  	240
    Colon, Bartolo SP NYY   	238
    Hernandez, Livan SP WAS  	238
    Buehrle, Mark SP CHW  	234
    Niese, Jonathon SP NYM   	234
    Britton, Zach SP BAL  	232
    Cueto, Johnny SP CIN  	232
    Marquis, Jason SP WAS  	230
    Scherzer, Max SP DET  	230
    Arrieta, Jake SP BAL   	228
    Bumgarner, Madison SP SF   	225
    Harrison, Matt RP TEX  	225
    Billingsley, Chad SP LA  	222
    Floyd, Gavin SP CHW  	222
    Zambrano, Carlos SP CHC  	222
    Dickey, R.A. SP NYM  	220
    Garcia, Freddy SP NYY  	219
    Guthrie, Jeremy SP BAL  	217
    Lowe, Derek SP ATL  	217
    Leake, Mike SP CIN 	216
    Capuano, Chris RP NYM  	213
    Dempster, Ryan SP CHC  	212
    Myers, Brett SP HOU  	212
    Blackburn, Nick SP MIN 	208
    Narveson, Chris SP MIL  	208
    Harang, Aaron SP SD 	206
    Sanchez, Jonathan SP SF 	206
    Garza, Matt SP CHC  	203
    Johnson, Josh SP FLA 	202
    Gee, Dillon SP NYM  	200
    Holland, Derek SP TEX  	198
    Saunders, Joe SP ARI  	197
    Jimenez, Ubaldo SP COL  	196
    Morton, Charlie SP PIT   	195
    Danks, John SP CHW 	194
    Pavano, Carl SP MIN  	194
    Buchholz, Clay SP BOS 	193
    Lannan, John SP WAS 	192
    Latos, Mat SP SD  	190
    Moseley, Dustin SP SD  	190
    Morrow, Brandon SP TOR  	188
    Hammel, Jason SP COL  	185
    Jackson, Edwin SP CHW  	185
    Arroyo, Bronson SP CIN  	184
    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania
    Last edited by Saxmania; 07-01-11 at 05:12 AM.

  21. #21
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Option A: Ks reduced to 0.5

    Average: 255 (-40 from current)
    Max: 448 (-65 from current)
    Min: 142.5 (-40.5 from current)

    Code:
    Player	FPTS
    Verlander, Justin SP DET  	448
    Shields, James SP TB  	411.5
    Weaver, Jered SP ANA   	398
    Halladay, Roy SP PHI 	386.5
    Lee, Cliff SP PHI  	373.5
    Kershaw, Clayton SP LA  	344
    Hamels, Cole SP PHI  	344
    Haren, Dan SP ANA  	320
    Sabathia, CC SP NYY  	300
    Romero, Ricky SP TOR  	300
    Hernandez, Felix SP SEA  	296
    Cain, Matt SP SF  	285.5
    Kennedy, Ian SP ARI 	284.5
    Price, David SP TB  	282
    Beckett, Josh SP BOS  	281
    Hudson, Daniel SP ARI  	278
    Lincecum, Tim SP SF  	277
    Sanchez, Anibal SP FLA  	275.5
    Pineda, Michael SP SEA  	275.5
    Lohse, Kyle SP STL  	275
    Jurrjens, Jair SP ATL  	273.5
    Chacin, Jhoulys SP COL  	269
    Wilson, C.J. SP TEX  	268
    Zimmermann, Jordan SP WAS  	265.5
    Lester, Jon SP BOS  	263.5
    Hanson, Tommy SP ATL  	253.5
    Gonzalez, Gio SP OAK  	252.5
    Marcum, Shaun SP MIL  	250
    Garcia, Jaime SP STL  	246.5
    Tomlin, Josh SP CLE  	245
    Baker, Scott SP MIN  	241.5
    Humber, Philip RP CHW  	241.5
    Ogando, Alexi RP TEX   	240.5
    Stauffer, Tim RP SD  	238
    Cahill, Trevor SP OAK  	230.5
    Hellickson, Jeremy RP TB 	230
    Masterson, Justin SP CLE  	228.5
    Maholm, Paul SP PIT  	225
    Hudson, Tim SP ATL  	224
    Correia, Kevin SP PIT  	221.5
    Gallardo, Yovani SP MIL  	220
    Vogelsong, Ryan RP SF  	218.5
    Karstens, Jeff SP PIT  	218.5
    Fister, Doug SP SEA  	218
    Vargas, Jason SP SEA  	218
    Carrasco, Carlos SP CLE  	216
    Wolf, Randy SP MIL  	215
    Norris, Bud SP HOU  	214
    Bedard, Erik SP SEA 	213.5
    Lewis, Colby SP TEX  	213.5
    Nolasco, Ricky SP FLA  	211
    Kuroda, Hiroki SP LA  	209.5
    Rodriguez, Wandy SP HOU  	208.5
    Cueto, Johnny SP CIN  	208
    Buehrle, Mark SP CHW  	207.5
    Carpenter, Chris SP STL  	206
    Hernandez, Livan SP WAS  	204
    Britton, Zach SP BAL  	202.5
    Colon, Bartolo SP NYY   	202
    Marquis, Jason SP WAS  	200.5
    Santana, Ervin SP ANA  	198
    Harrison, Matt RP TEX  	198
    Burnett, A.J. SP NYY  	197.5
    Niese, Jonathon SP NYM   	194.5
    Arrieta, Jake SP BAL   	192.5
    Garcia, Freddy SP NYY  	191
    Floyd, Gavin SP CHW  	187.5
    Leake, Mike SP CIN 	187
    Bumgarner, Madison SP SF   	186.5
    Zambrano, Carlos SP CHC  	184.5
    Dickey, R.A. SP NYM  	184.5
    Scherzer, Max SP DET  	184
    Guthrie, Jeremy SP BAL  	184
    Blackburn, Nick SP MIN 	182
    Lowe, Derek SP ATL  	179
    Harang, Aaron SP SD 	178.5
    Billingsley, Chad SP LA  	177
    Capuano, Chris RP NYM  	174.5
    Gee, Dillon SP NYM  	174.5
    Johnson, Josh SP FLA 	174
    Myers, Brett SP HOU  	172.5
    Pavano, Carl SP MIN  	171.5
    Morton, Charlie SP PIT   	170
    Moseley, Dustin SP SD  	168.5
    Saunders, Joe SP ARI  	167
    Narveson, Chris SP MIL  	166.5
    Lannan, John SP WAS 	166
    Dempster, Ryan SP CHC  	163
    Buchholz, Clay SP BOS 	163
    Danks, John SP CHW 	161.5
    Holland, Derek SP TEX  	161
    Sanchez, Jonathan SP SF 	160
    Hammel, Jason SP COL  	159.5
    Garza, Matt SP CHC  	159
    Jimenez, Ubaldo SP COL  	157
    Arroyo, Bronson SP CIN  	154.5
    Beachy, Brandon SP ATL  	150
    Latos, Mat SP SD  	149
    Jackson, Edwin SP CHW  	144.5
    Morrow, Brandon SP TOR  	142.5
    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania

  22. #22
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Option B - W reduced to 3 (from 5)

    Average: 252 (-15 from current)
    Max: 491 (-22 from current)
    Min: 173 (-10 from current)

    Code:
    Player	FPTS
    Verlander, Justin SP DET  	491
    Shields, James SP TB  	459
    Weaver, Jered SP ANA   	433
    Halladay, Roy SP PHI 	428
    Lee, Cliff SP PHI  	415
    Kershaw, Clayton SP LA  	392
    Hamels, Cole SP PHI  	381
    Haren, Dan SP ANA  	353
    Hernandez, Felix SP SEA  	342
    Romero, Ricky SP TOR  	334
    Sabathia, CC SP NYY  	331
    Lincecum, Tim SP SF  	326
    Price, David SP TB  	324
    Cain, Matt SP SF  	319
    Kennedy, Ian SP ARI 	317
    Sanchez, Anibal SP FLA  	317
    Pineda, Michael SP SEA  	311
    Beckett, Josh SP BOS  	309
    Hudson, Daniel SP ARI  	306
    Wilson, C.J. SP TEX  	302
    Chacin, Jhoulys SP COL  	299
    Lester, Jon SP BOS  	296
    Zimmermann, Jordan SP WAS  	291
    Lohse, Kyle SP STL  	288
    Gonzalez, Gio SP OAK  	288
    Hanson, Tommy SP ATL  	284
    Marcum, Shaun SP MIL  	282
    Jurrjens, Jair SP ATL  	281
    Baker, Scott SP MIN  	280
    Garcia, Jaime SP STL  	278
    Stauffer, Tim RP SD  	274
    Ogando, Alexi RP TEX   	259
    Humber, Philip RP CHW  	257
    Tomlin, Josh SP CLE  	256
    Cahill, Trevor SP OAK  	256
    Masterson, Justin SP CLE  	256
    Norris, Bud SP HOU  	256
    Gallardo, Yovani SP MIL  	249
    Hellickson, Jeremy RP TB 	249
    Maholm, Paul SP PIT  	249
    Bedard, Erik SP SEA 	248
    Hudson, Tim SP ATL  	247
    Fister, Doug SP SEA  	247
    Carpenter, Chris SP STL  	245
    Vargas, Jason SP SEA  	242
    Lewis, Colby SP TEX  	241
    Wolf, Randy SP MIL  	241
    Nolasco, Ricky SP FLA  	241
    Vogelsong, Ryan RP SF  	238
    Kuroda, Hiroki SP LA  	238
    Santana, Ervin SP ANA  	238
    Karstens, Jeff SP PIT  	234
    Rodriguez, Wandy SP HOU  	233
    Carrasco, Carlos SP CLE  	230
    Colon, Bartolo SP NYY   	228
    Hernandez, Livan SP WAS  	228
    Correia, Kevin SP PIT  	227
    Burnett, A.J. SP NYY  	224
    Buehrle, Mark SP CHW  	222
    Cueto, Johnny SP CIN  	222
    Niese, Jonathon SP NYM   	220
    Britton, Zach SP BAL  	220
    Bumgarner, Madison SP SF   	217
    Marquis, Jason SP WAS  	216
    Harrison, Matt RP TEX  	213
    Scherzer, Max SP DET  	212
    Dickey, R.A. SP NYM  	212
    Guthrie, Jeremy SP BAL  	211
    Arrieta, Jake SP BAL   	210
    Floyd, Gavin SP CHW  	210
    Zambrano, Carlos SP CHC  	210
    Lowe, Derek SP ATL  	209
    Billingsley, Chad SP LA  	208
    Myers, Brett SP HOU  	206
    Garcia, Freddy SP NYY  	205
    Leake, Mike SP CIN 	202
    Dempster, Ryan SP CHC  	202
    Capuano, Chris RP NYM  	199
    Narveson, Chris SP MIL  	198
    Sanchez, Jonathan SP SF 	198
    Blackburn, Nick SP MIN 	196
    Johnson, Josh SP FLA 	196
    Garza, Matt SP CHC  	195
    Harang, Aaron SP SD 	192
    Jimenez, Ubaldo SP COL  	190
    Saunders, Joe SP ARI  	189
    Danks, John SP CHW 	188
    Holland, Derek SP TEX  	186
    Moseley, Dustin SP SD  	186
    Gee, Dillon SP NYM  	184
    Pavano, Carl SP MIN  	184
    Lannan, John SP WAS 	182
    Morton, Charlie SP PIT   	181
    Buchholz, Clay SP BOS 	181
    Latos, Mat SP SD  	180
    Morrow, Brandon SP TOR  	180
    Hammel, Jason SP COL  	177
    Jackson, Edwin SP CHW  	177
    Beachy, Brandon SP ATL  	177
    Collmenter, Josh SP ARI  	173
    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania

  23. #23
    NYYF Legend

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    Sep 2001
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Option C - Ks reduced to 0.5 AND W reduced to 3:

    Average: 212.5 (-52.5 from current)
    Max: 426 (-87 from current)
    Min: 139 (-44 from current)

    Code:
    Player	FPTS
    Verlander, Justin SP DET  	426
    Shields, James SP TB  	395.5
    Weaver, Jered SP ANA   	380
    Halladay, Roy SP PHI 	366.5
    Lee, Cliff SP PHI  	355.5
    Kershaw, Clayton SP LA  	328
    Hamels, Cole SP PHI  	326
    Haren, Dan SP ANA  	304
    Romero, Ricky SP TOR  	286
    Hernandez, Felix SP SEA  	280
    Sabathia, CC SP NYY  	278
    Cain, Matt SP SF  	271.5
    Beckett, Josh SP BOS  	269
    Kennedy, Ian SP ARI 	268.5
    Price, David SP TB  	266
    Lincecum, Tim SP SF  	265
    Sanchez, Anibal SP FLA  	263.5
    Pineda, Michael SP SEA  	261.5
    Hudson, Daniel SP ARI  	260
    Lohse, Kyle SP STL  	259
    Zimmermann, Jordan SP WAS  	255.5
    Jurrjens, Jair SP ATL  	253.5
    Chacin, Jhoulys SP COL  	253
    Wilson, C.J. SP TEX  	252
    Lester, Jon SP BOS  	243.5
    Gonzalez, Gio SP OAK  	238.5
    Marcum, Shaun SP MIL  	236
    Hanson, Tommy SP ATL  	235.5
    Garcia, Jaime SP STL  	232.5
    Stauffer, Tim RP SD  	230
    Baker, Scott SP MIN  	229.5
    Humber, Philip RP CHW  	227.5
    Tomlin, Josh SP CLE  	227
    Ogando, Alexi RP TEX   	226.5
    Masterson, Justin SP CLE  	218.5
    Maholm, Paul SP PIT  	217
    Hellickson, Jeremy RP TB 	216
    Cahill, Trevor SP OAK  	214.5
    Hudson, Tim SP ATL  	212
    Fister, Doug SP SEA  	212
    Vargas, Jason SP SEA  	208
    Vogelsong, Ryan RP SF  	206.5
    Karstens, Jeff SP PIT  	206.5
    Norris, Bud SP HOU  	206
    Bedard, Erik SP SEA 	205.5
    Wolf, Randy SP MIL  	203
    Gallardo, Yovani SP MIL  	202
    Correia, Kevin SP PIT  	201.5
    Nolasco, Ricky SP FLA  	201
    Carpenter, Chris SP STL  	200
    Carrasco, Carlos SP CLE  	200
    Lewis, Colby SP TEX  	199.5
    Kuroda, Hiroki SP LA  	199.5
    Cueto, Johnny SP CIN  	198
    Rodriguez, Wandy SP HOU  	196.5
    Buehrle, Mark SP CHW  	195.5
    Hernandez, Livan SP WAS  	194
    Santana, Ervin SP ANA  	192
    Colon, Bartolo SP NYY   	192
    Britton, Zach SP BAL  	190.5
    Marquis, Jason SP WAS  	186.5
    Harrison, Matt RP TEX  	186
    Burnett, A.J. SP NYY  	181.5
    Niese, Jonathon SP NYM   	180.5
    Bumgarner, Madison SP SF   	178.5
    Guthrie, Jeremy SP BAL  	178
    Garcia, Freddy SP NYY  	177
    Dickey, R.A. SP NYM  	176.5
    Floyd, Gavin SP CHW  	175.5
    Arrieta, Jake SP BAL   	174.5
    Leake, Mike SP CIN 	173
    Zambrano, Carlos SP CHC  	172.5
    Lowe, Derek SP ATL  	171
    Blackburn, Nick SP MIN 	170
    Johnson, Josh SP FLA 	168
    Myers, Brett SP HOU  	166.5
    Scherzer, Max SP DET  	166
    Harang, Aaron SP SD 	164.5
    Moseley, Dustin SP SD  	164.5
    Billingsley, Chad SP LA  	163
    Pavano, Carl SP MIN  	161.5
    Capuano, Chris RP NYM  	160.5
    Saunders, Joe SP ARI  	159
    Gee, Dillon SP NYM  	158.5
    Narveson, Chris SP MIL  	156.5
    Morton, Charlie SP PIT   	156
    Lannan, John SP WAS 	156
    Danks, John SP CHW 	155.5
    Dempster, Ryan SP CHC  	153
    Sanchez, Jonathan SP SF 	152
    Hammel, Jason SP COL  	151.5
    Collmenter, Josh SP ARI  	151.5
    Garza, Matt SP CHC  	151
    Jimenez, Ubaldo SP COL  	151
    Buchholz, Clay SP BOS 	151
    Holland, Derek SP TEX  	149
    Beachy, Brandon SP ATL  	144
    Anderson, Brett SP OAK 	141.5
    Arroyo, Bronson SP CIN  	140.5
    Latos, Mat SP SD  	139
    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania

  24. #24
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Perhaps we value Ks too highly. Perhaps we value batter Ks too highly. Perhaps we value wins too highly. Perhaps we value outs too highly. Perhaps we value QS too highly. Perhaps we don't value various hitting statistics enough. The issue is that we're not really looking into any of this and a taking a detailed look at what impact various ideas would have on the league (except for the Ks a little bit). I think you keep trying to change the argument.
    No I am not. My argument for YEARS has been that we should not reward K's. But I have been consistently shot down. I still believe that, but am willing to make K's worth 0.5 points as a compromise.

  25. #25
    Call now. Soriambi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
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    New Jersey

    Re: Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    No I am not. My argument for YEARS has been that we should not reward K's. But I have been consistently shot down. I still believe that, but am willing to make K's worth 0.5 points as a compromise.
    What I meant was that you're changing my argument, or just not getting what I'm saying. Sax seems to have understood, though. I really appreciate that work, Sax. Of those options, I think I do like the Ks to .5 best, though I'm still curious as to what would happen to batters by eliminating the offensive K penalty and leaving Ks at 1 or eliminating the offensive K penalty AND switching Ks to .5. I'm interested in balance here, but I'm also interested in the scoring change that makes the most sense baseball stats-wise. I don't think E is necessarily wrong about Ks being overvalued at 1, but I also think (at this point, as I think I was the one who originally implemented it many moons ago) that batter Ks are inappropriately penalized.

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