Scoring change proposal #2 - changing pitcher bonus for Ks

[Hitman23]

The proposal is that we reduce the award for strike outs (for pitchers) from a full point to 0.5. This is in an effort to reduce (not eliminate) the disparity between pitching scoring and offense scoring.

If you are looking for data, Eric was kind enough to take the time and put it together in this thread beginning with this post.

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread...=1#post7254109

Eric, if you'd like to repost what you have in here that would probably be helpful.

[ChrisRo]

Voted No. I'd rather reduce the disparity by awarding hitters more, than taxing dominating pitchers. I really hope this does not go through.

[Hitman23]

Voted No. I'd rather reduce the disparity by awarding hitters more, than taxing dominating pitchers. I really hope this does not go through.

It seemed the general idea was to go with lessening the pitchers award rather than taking away the batters penalty. If this doesn't go through, we could still go the other way if the league wants that.

[Big_E]

Voted No. I'd rather reduce the disparity by awarding hitters more, than taxing dominating pitchers. I really hope this does not go through.

Oooh my favorite topic!

Defend a strikeout being 2x as valuable as a ground-out or fly-out. (Then I will counter with statistics that show that a strikeout is only 1.25x more valuable than a non-strikeout, and we are proposing making it 1.50x more valuable).

Begin.

[Big_E]

As far as "dominating" pitchers...who had the better season:

Roger Clemens: 10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 K
Rick Sutcliffe: 20-9, 3.64 ERA, 213 K
John Burkett: 22-7, 3.65, 145 K

Clemens' 44 extra strikeouts are equal to nearly 9 wins of Sutcliffe! (Who won the NLCYA in his 20-9 season)
Clemens' 112 extra strikeout are equal to ALL 22 of Burkett's wins!

******************************************************

EDIT: i computed their points scored, per our current scoring system:

Roger Clemens: 10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 K (637 points)
Rick Sutcliffe: 20-9, 3.64 ERA, 213 K (680 points)
John Burkett: 22-7, 3.65, 145 K (615 points)

In looking at our scoring system, Sutcliffe, with 10 more wins, outscored Clemens by just 43 points (Or 4.3 points per win, and a win is worth 5 points!)

Clemens actually outscored Burkett, even though Burkett had 12 more wins!

BUT...if we make K's a half a point, the totals are:

Clemens, 508.5 points
Sutcliffe, 573.5 points
Burkett, 542.5 points

Personally, I think Burkett, with his 22 wins, should earn more points than Clemens, with his 10 wins. And dropping K's to half a point, while balancing out hitting with pitching, would also balance out this example, too.

[The FUTURE]

As far as "dominating" pitchers...who had the better season:

Roger Clemens: 10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 K
Rick Sutcliffe: 20-9, 3.64 ERA, 213 K
John Burkett: 22-7, 3.65, 145 K

Clemens' 44 extra strikeouts are equal to nearly 9 wins of Sutcliffe! (Who won the NLCYA in his 20-9 season)
Clemens' 112 extra strikeout are equal to ALL 22 of Burkett's wins!

I am searching but I don't see this Clemens' guy available anywhere...

[Stupid Flanders]

Personally, I think Burkett, with his 22 wins, should earn more points than Clemens, with his 10 wins.

Joe Morgan, everybody!

[Big_E]

Joe Morgan, everybody!

yeah yeah yeah.

[Hitman23]

awesome.

[Soriambi]

Without data on how it would impact the league's scoring (vs. other proposals and ideas), and without information on what else would/wouldn't be changed, I don't feel I can vote either way on this in good conscience. It seems this is trying to be rammed through without having all the data, and if that's what people want, that's fine I suppose, but I'm not going to be voting either way in that case.

[Hitman23]

I linked everyone to the data that Eric posted in the scoring change ideas thread right in the first post. It's based on 2010 stats and I think it's pretty clear.

[Soriambi]

I linked everyone to the data that Eric posted in the scoring change ideas thread right in the first post. It's based on 2010 stats and I think it's pretty clear.

As I alluded to in that thread (and in my previous post), it also didn't cover the other proposals (eliminating batter K penalties and leaving pitchers at 1, for instance, among others). It seems like this is the course that it's been decided we're voting on, though. Don't worry, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it; I just wish the scoring change discussion had been handled more thoroughly than this. All we know from E's data is that taking away points from pitchers makes batters more valuable, which is obvious. You'd probably get similar results if you reduced wins to 2 points or outs to half a point or did a whole host of other things. It doesn't tell us what kind of pitchers are going to be the top scorers, etc. For instance, in E's example above, I think that Clemens had the best individual season based solely on those numbers (W-L, ERA, Ks), but he'd lose a ton of value based on this. This is really the only option we've been given for whatever reason, and I think people are voting yes more based on the abstract concept of balancing pitchers and hitters than the specifics of how best to do so.

I'm probably not going to be back again next season anyway, so it probably won't impact me, but as a member for so many years, I care about what happens to this league in the future. I just think that a lot of ideas were thrown out there and one has been promoted to the top for some reason without an investigation of the impact of that idea (or any of the other ideas.) To be clear, I'm not saying that this certainly isn't the best solution, just that I think we have no clue at this point and we're just voting for the sake of voting because the poll has been started.

[Big_E]

For instance, in E's example above, I think that Clemens had the best individual season based solely on those numbers (W-L, ERA, Ks)...

THE DATA:
Roger Clemens: 10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 K (637 points)
Rick Sutcliffe: 20-9, 3.64 ERA, 213 K (680 points)
John Burkett: 22-7, 3.65, 145 K (615 points)

So you think that K's are so valuable that Clemens had the best season, even though he won half as many games as Rick Sutcliffe (NL CYA winner that year) and John Burkett?

No offense, but this dumbfounds me.

[Soriambi]

THE DATA:
Roger Clemens: 10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 K (637 points)
Rick Sutcliffe: 20-9, 3.64 ERA, 213 K (680 points)
John Burkett: 22-7, 3.65, 145 K (615 points)

So you think that K's are so valuable that Clemens had the best season, even though he won half as many games as Rick Sutcliffe (NL CYA winner that year) and John Burkett?

No offense, but this dumbfounds me.

Without looking at any other numbers, yes. I think wins are a silly way to evaluate how well a pitcher pitched individually. If that was the only information I had, and I was starting that season again (or the next season), Clemens would easily be the first guy I'd pick from that list, and that's true even without the name recognition.

[Big_E]

Without looking at any other numbers, yes. I think wins are a silly way to evaluate how well a pitcher pitched individually. If that was the only information I had, and I was starting that season again (or the next season), Clemens would easily be the first guy I'd pick from that list, and that's true even without the name recognition.

I think K's are an even more ridiculous way to assess a pitcher, because K's are almost always meaningless as compared with other outs. At least a win means the team won.

May 29, 2011: CC Sabathia pitches 8.0 innings, allows 1 ER, 5 H, 3 BB, 5 Ks (8 total base runners). Yanks win
June 25, 2011: CC Sabathia pitches 8.0 innings, allows 1 ER, 7 H, 1 BB, 9 Ks (8 total base runners). Yanks win.

Was the June game a "better" game for CC because he had more strike outs?

[Big_E]

I am also willing to analyze any of today's games to again show that strikeouts, at best, are only 1.25x more important than a fly out or ground out, not 2x as important.

[Soriambi]

Perhaps we value Ks too highly. Perhaps we value batter Ks too highly. Perhaps we value wins too highly. Perhaps we value outs too highly. Perhaps we value QS too highly. Perhaps we don't value various hitting statistics enough. The issue is that we're not really looking into any of this and a taking a detailed look at what impact various ideas would have on the league (except for the Ks a little bit). I think you keep trying to change the argument.

[Saxmania]

Current scheme; top 100 starting pitchers:

Average score: 265
Max score: 513 (Verlander)
Min score: 183 (Beachy)

Player	FPTS
Verlander, Justin SP DET  	513
Shields, James SP TB  	475
Weaver, Jered SP ANA   	451
Halladay, Roy SP PHI 	448
Lee, Cliff SP PHI  	433
Kershaw, Clayton SP LA  	408
Hamels, Cole SP PHI  	399
Haren, Dan SP ANA  	369
Hernandez, Felix SP SEA  	358
Sabathia, CC SP NYY  	353
Romero, Ricky SP TOR  	348
Price, David SP TB  	340
Lincecum, Tim SP SF  	338
Cain, Matt SP SF  	333
Kennedy, Ian SP ARI 	333
Sanchez, Anibal SP FLA  	329
Pineda, Michael SP SEA  	325
Hudson, Daniel SP ARI  	324
Beckett, Josh SP BOS  	321
Wilson, C.J. SP TEX  	318
Lester, Jon SP BOS  	316
Chacin, Jhoulys SP COL  	315
Lohse, Kyle SP STL  	304
Gonzalez, Gio SP OAK  	302
Hanson, Tommy SP ATL  	302
Jurrjens, Jair SP ATL  	301
Zimmermann, Jordan SP WAS  	301
Marcum, Shaun SP MIL  	296
Baker, Scott SP MIN  	292
Garcia, Jaime SP STL  	292
Stauffer, Tim RP SD  	282
Tomlin, Josh SP CLE  	274
Ogando, Alexi RP TEX   	273
Cahill, Trevor SP OAK  	272
Humber, Philip RP CHW  	271
Gallardo, Yovani SP MIL  	267
Masterson, Justin SP CLE  	266
Norris, Bud SP HOU  	264
Hellickson, Jeremy RP TB 	263
Hudson, Tim SP ATL  	259
Maholm, Paul SP PIT  	257
Bedard, Erik SP SEA 	256
Lewis, Colby SP TEX  	255
Fister, Doug SP SEA  	253
Wolf, Randy SP MIL  	253
Vargas, Jason SP SEA  	252
Carpenter, Chris SP STL  	251
Nolasco, Ricky SP FLA  	251
Vogelsong, Ryan RP SF  	250
Kuroda, Hiroki SP LA  	248
Correia, Kevin SP PIT  	247
Carrasco, Carlos SP CLE  	246
Karstens, Jeff SP PIT  	246
Rodriguez, Wandy SP HOU  	245
Santana, Ervin SP ANA  	244
Burnett, A.J. SP NYY  	240
Colon, Bartolo SP NYY   	238
Hernandez, Livan SP WAS  	238
Buehrle, Mark SP CHW  	234
Niese, Jonathon SP NYM   	234
Britton, Zach SP BAL  	232
Cueto, Johnny SP CIN  	232
Marquis, Jason SP WAS  	230
Scherzer, Max SP DET  	230
Arrieta, Jake SP BAL   	228
Bumgarner, Madison SP SF   	225
Harrison, Matt RP TEX  	225
Billingsley, Chad SP LA  	222
Floyd, Gavin SP CHW  	222
Zambrano, Carlos SP CHC  	222
Dickey, R.A. SP NYM  	220
Garcia, Freddy SP NYY  	219
Guthrie, Jeremy SP BAL  	217
Lowe, Derek SP ATL  	217
Leake, Mike SP CIN 	216
Capuano, Chris RP NYM  	213
Dempster, Ryan SP CHC  	212
Myers, Brett SP HOU  	212
Blackburn, Nick SP MIN 	208
Narveson, Chris SP MIL  	208
Harang, Aaron SP SD 	206
Sanchez, Jonathan SP SF 	206
Garza, Matt SP CHC  	203
Johnson, Josh SP FLA 	202
Gee, Dillon SP NYM  	200
Holland, Derek SP TEX  	198
Saunders, Joe SP ARI  	197
Jimenez, Ubaldo SP COL  	196
Morton, Charlie SP PIT   	195
Danks, John SP CHW 	194
Pavano, Carl SP MIN  	194
Buchholz, Clay SP BOS 	193
Lannan, John SP WAS 	192
Latos, Mat SP SD  	190
Moseley, Dustin SP SD  	190
Morrow, Brandon SP TOR  	188
Hammel, Jason SP COL  	185
Jackson, Edwin SP CHW  	185
Arroyo, Bronson SP CIN  	184

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Saxmania]

Option A: Ks reduced to 0.5

Average: 255 (-40 from current)
Max: 448 (-65 from current)
Min: 142.5 (-40.5 from current)

Player	FPTS
Verlander, Justin SP DET  	448
Shields, James SP TB  	411.5
Weaver, Jered SP ANA   	398
Halladay, Roy SP PHI 	386.5
Lee, Cliff SP PHI  	373.5
Kershaw, Clayton SP LA  	344
Hamels, Cole SP PHI  	344
Haren, Dan SP ANA  	320
Sabathia, CC SP NYY  	300
Romero, Ricky SP TOR  	300
Hernandez, Felix SP SEA  	296
Cain, Matt SP SF  	285.5
Kennedy, Ian SP ARI 	284.5
Price, David SP TB  	282
Beckett, Josh SP BOS  	281
Hudson, Daniel SP ARI  	278
Lincecum, Tim SP SF  	277
Sanchez, Anibal SP FLA  	275.5
Pineda, Michael SP SEA  	275.5
Lohse, Kyle SP STL  	275
Jurrjens, Jair SP ATL  	273.5
Chacin, Jhoulys SP COL  	269
Wilson, C.J. SP TEX  	268
Zimmermann, Jordan SP WAS  	265.5
Lester, Jon SP BOS  	263.5
Hanson, Tommy SP ATL  	253.5
Gonzalez, Gio SP OAK  	252.5
Marcum, Shaun SP MIL  	250
Garcia, Jaime SP STL  	246.5
Tomlin, Josh SP CLE  	245
Baker, Scott SP MIN  	241.5
Humber, Philip RP CHW  	241.5
Ogando, Alexi RP TEX   	240.5
Stauffer, Tim RP SD  	238
Cahill, Trevor SP OAK  	230.5
Hellickson, Jeremy RP TB 	230
Masterson, Justin SP CLE  	228.5
Maholm, Paul SP PIT  	225
Hudson, Tim SP ATL  	224
Correia, Kevin SP PIT  	221.5
Gallardo, Yovani SP MIL  	220
Vogelsong, Ryan RP SF  	218.5
Karstens, Jeff SP PIT  	218.5
Fister, Doug SP SEA  	218
Vargas, Jason SP SEA  	218
Carrasco, Carlos SP CLE  	216
Wolf, Randy SP MIL  	215
Norris, Bud SP HOU  	214
Bedard, Erik SP SEA 	213.5
Lewis, Colby SP TEX  	213.5
Nolasco, Ricky SP FLA  	211
Kuroda, Hiroki SP LA  	209.5
Rodriguez, Wandy SP HOU  	208.5
Cueto, Johnny SP CIN  	208
Buehrle, Mark SP CHW  	207.5
Carpenter, Chris SP STL  	206
Hernandez, Livan SP WAS  	204
Britton, Zach SP BAL  	202.5
Colon, Bartolo SP NYY   	202
Marquis, Jason SP WAS  	200.5
Santana, Ervin SP ANA  	198
Harrison, Matt RP TEX  	198
Burnett, A.J. SP NYY  	197.5
Niese, Jonathon SP NYM   	194.5
Arrieta, Jake SP BAL   	192.5
Garcia, Freddy SP NYY  	191
Floyd, Gavin SP CHW  	187.5
Leake, Mike SP CIN 	187
Bumgarner, Madison SP SF   	186.5
Zambrano, Carlos SP CHC  	184.5
Dickey, R.A. SP NYM  	184.5
Scherzer, Max SP DET  	184
Guthrie, Jeremy SP BAL  	184
Blackburn, Nick SP MIN 	182
Lowe, Derek SP ATL  	179
Harang, Aaron SP SD 	178.5
Billingsley, Chad SP LA  	177
Capuano, Chris RP NYM  	174.5
Gee, Dillon SP NYM  	174.5
Johnson, Josh SP FLA 	174
Myers, Brett SP HOU  	172.5
Pavano, Carl SP MIN  	171.5
Morton, Charlie SP PIT   	170
Moseley, Dustin SP SD  	168.5
Saunders, Joe SP ARI  	167
Narveson, Chris SP MIL  	166.5
Lannan, John SP WAS 	166
Dempster, Ryan SP CHC  	163
Buchholz, Clay SP BOS 	163
Danks, John SP CHW 	161.5
Holland, Derek SP TEX  	161
Sanchez, Jonathan SP SF 	160
Hammel, Jason SP COL  	159.5
Garza, Matt SP CHC  	159
Jimenez, Ubaldo SP COL  	157
Arroyo, Bronson SP CIN  	154.5
Beachy, Brandon SP ATL  	150
Latos, Mat SP SD  	149
Jackson, Edwin SP CHW  	144.5
Morrow, Brandon SP TOR  	142.5

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Saxmania]

Option B - W reduced to 3 (from 5)

Average: 252 (-15 from current)
Max: 491 (-22 from current)
Min: 173 (-10 from current)

Player	FPTS
Verlander, Justin SP DET  	491
Shields, James SP TB  	459
Weaver, Jered SP ANA   	433
Halladay, Roy SP PHI 	428
Lee, Cliff SP PHI  	415
Kershaw, Clayton SP LA  	392
Hamels, Cole SP PHI  	381
Haren, Dan SP ANA  	353
Hernandez, Felix SP SEA  	342
Romero, Ricky SP TOR  	334
Sabathia, CC SP NYY  	331
Lincecum, Tim SP SF  	326
Price, David SP TB  	324
Cain, Matt SP SF  	319
Kennedy, Ian SP ARI 	317
Sanchez, Anibal SP FLA  	317
Pineda, Michael SP SEA  	311
Beckett, Josh SP BOS  	309
Hudson, Daniel SP ARI  	306
Wilson, C.J. SP TEX  	302
Chacin, Jhoulys SP COL  	299
Lester, Jon SP BOS  	296
Zimmermann, Jordan SP WAS  	291
Lohse, Kyle SP STL  	288
Gonzalez, Gio SP OAK  	288
Hanson, Tommy SP ATL  	284
Marcum, Shaun SP MIL  	282
Jurrjens, Jair SP ATL  	281
Baker, Scott SP MIN  	280
Garcia, Jaime SP STL  	278
Stauffer, Tim RP SD  	274
Ogando, Alexi RP TEX   	259
Humber, Philip RP CHW  	257
Tomlin, Josh SP CLE  	256
Cahill, Trevor SP OAK  	256
Masterson, Justin SP CLE  	256
Norris, Bud SP HOU  	256
Gallardo, Yovani SP MIL  	249
Hellickson, Jeremy RP TB 	249
Maholm, Paul SP PIT  	249
Bedard, Erik SP SEA 	248
Hudson, Tim SP ATL  	247
Fister, Doug SP SEA  	247
Carpenter, Chris SP STL  	245
Vargas, Jason SP SEA  	242
Lewis, Colby SP TEX  	241
Wolf, Randy SP MIL  	241
Nolasco, Ricky SP FLA  	241
Vogelsong, Ryan RP SF  	238
Kuroda, Hiroki SP LA  	238
Santana, Ervin SP ANA  	238
Karstens, Jeff SP PIT  	234
Rodriguez, Wandy SP HOU  	233
Carrasco, Carlos SP CLE  	230
Colon, Bartolo SP NYY   	228
Hernandez, Livan SP WAS  	228
Correia, Kevin SP PIT  	227
Burnett, A.J. SP NYY  	224
Buehrle, Mark SP CHW  	222
Cueto, Johnny SP CIN  	222
Niese, Jonathon SP NYM   	220
Britton, Zach SP BAL  	220
Bumgarner, Madison SP SF   	217
Marquis, Jason SP WAS  	216
Harrison, Matt RP TEX  	213
Scherzer, Max SP DET  	212
Dickey, R.A. SP NYM  	212
Guthrie, Jeremy SP BAL  	211
Arrieta, Jake SP BAL   	210
Floyd, Gavin SP CHW  	210
Zambrano, Carlos SP CHC  	210
Lowe, Derek SP ATL  	209
Billingsley, Chad SP LA  	208
Myers, Brett SP HOU  	206
Garcia, Freddy SP NYY  	205
Leake, Mike SP CIN 	202
Dempster, Ryan SP CHC  	202
Capuano, Chris RP NYM  	199
Narveson, Chris SP MIL  	198
Sanchez, Jonathan SP SF 	198
Blackburn, Nick SP MIN 	196
Johnson, Josh SP FLA 	196
Garza, Matt SP CHC  	195
Harang, Aaron SP SD 	192
Jimenez, Ubaldo SP COL  	190
Saunders, Joe SP ARI  	189
Danks, John SP CHW 	188
Holland, Derek SP TEX  	186
Moseley, Dustin SP SD  	186
Gee, Dillon SP NYM  	184
Pavano, Carl SP MIN  	184
Lannan, John SP WAS 	182
Morton, Charlie SP PIT   	181
Buchholz, Clay SP BOS 	181
Latos, Mat SP SD  	180
Morrow, Brandon SP TOR  	180
Hammel, Jason SP COL  	177
Jackson, Edwin SP CHW  	177
Beachy, Brandon SP ATL  	177
Collmenter, Josh SP ARI  	173

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Saxmania]

Option C - Ks reduced to 0.5 AND W reduced to 3:

Average: 212.5 (-52.5 from current)
Max: 426 (-87 from current)
Min: 139 (-44 from current)

Player	FPTS
Verlander, Justin SP DET  	426
Shields, James SP TB  	395.5
Weaver, Jered SP ANA   	380
Halladay, Roy SP PHI 	366.5
Lee, Cliff SP PHI  	355.5
Kershaw, Clayton SP LA  	328
Hamels, Cole SP PHI  	326
Haren, Dan SP ANA  	304
Romero, Ricky SP TOR  	286
Hernandez, Felix SP SEA  	280
Sabathia, CC SP NYY  	278
Cain, Matt SP SF  	271.5
Beckett, Josh SP BOS  	269
Kennedy, Ian SP ARI 	268.5
Price, David SP TB  	266
Lincecum, Tim SP SF  	265
Sanchez, Anibal SP FLA  	263.5
Pineda, Michael SP SEA  	261.5
Hudson, Daniel SP ARI  	260
Lohse, Kyle SP STL  	259
Zimmermann, Jordan SP WAS  	255.5
Jurrjens, Jair SP ATL  	253.5
Chacin, Jhoulys SP COL  	253
Wilson, C.J. SP TEX  	252
Lester, Jon SP BOS  	243.5
Gonzalez, Gio SP OAK  	238.5
Marcum, Shaun SP MIL  	236
Hanson, Tommy SP ATL  	235.5
Garcia, Jaime SP STL  	232.5
Stauffer, Tim RP SD  	230
Baker, Scott SP MIN  	229.5
Humber, Philip RP CHW  	227.5
Tomlin, Josh SP CLE  	227
Ogando, Alexi RP TEX   	226.5
Masterson, Justin SP CLE  	218.5
Maholm, Paul SP PIT  	217
Hellickson, Jeremy RP TB 	216
Cahill, Trevor SP OAK  	214.5
Hudson, Tim SP ATL  	212
Fister, Doug SP SEA  	212
Vargas, Jason SP SEA  	208
Vogelsong, Ryan RP SF  	206.5
Karstens, Jeff SP PIT  	206.5
Norris, Bud SP HOU  	206
Bedard, Erik SP SEA 	205.5
Wolf, Randy SP MIL  	203
Gallardo, Yovani SP MIL  	202
Correia, Kevin SP PIT  	201.5
Nolasco, Ricky SP FLA  	201
Carpenter, Chris SP STL  	200
Carrasco, Carlos SP CLE  	200
Lewis, Colby SP TEX  	199.5
Kuroda, Hiroki SP LA  	199.5
Cueto, Johnny SP CIN  	198
Rodriguez, Wandy SP HOU  	196.5
Buehrle, Mark SP CHW  	195.5
Hernandez, Livan SP WAS  	194
Santana, Ervin SP ANA  	192
Colon, Bartolo SP NYY   	192
Britton, Zach SP BAL  	190.5
Marquis, Jason SP WAS  	186.5
Harrison, Matt RP TEX  	186
Burnett, A.J. SP NYY  	181.5
Niese, Jonathon SP NYM   	180.5
Bumgarner, Madison SP SF   	178.5
Guthrie, Jeremy SP BAL  	178
Garcia, Freddy SP NYY  	177
Dickey, R.A. SP NYM  	176.5
Floyd, Gavin SP CHW  	175.5
Arrieta, Jake SP BAL   	174.5
Leake, Mike SP CIN 	173
Zambrano, Carlos SP CHC  	172.5
Lowe, Derek SP ATL  	171
Blackburn, Nick SP MIN 	170
Johnson, Josh SP FLA 	168
Myers, Brett SP HOU  	166.5
Scherzer, Max SP DET  	166
Harang, Aaron SP SD 	164.5
Moseley, Dustin SP SD  	164.5
Billingsley, Chad SP LA  	163
Pavano, Carl SP MIN  	161.5
Capuano, Chris RP NYM  	160.5
Saunders, Joe SP ARI  	159
Gee, Dillon SP NYM  	158.5
Narveson, Chris SP MIL  	156.5
Morton, Charlie SP PIT   	156
Lannan, John SP WAS 	156
Danks, John SP CHW 	155.5
Dempster, Ryan SP CHC  	153
Sanchez, Jonathan SP SF 	152
Hammel, Jason SP COL  	151.5
Collmenter, Josh SP ARI  	151.5
Garza, Matt SP CHC  	151
Jimenez, Ubaldo SP COL  	151
Buchholz, Clay SP BOS 	151
Holland, Derek SP TEX  	149
Beachy, Brandon SP ATL  	144
Anderson, Brett SP OAK 	141.5
Arroyo, Bronson SP CIN  	140.5
Latos, Mat SP SD  	139

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Big_E]

Perhaps we value Ks too highly. Perhaps we value batter Ks too highly. Perhaps we value wins too highly. Perhaps we value outs too highly. Perhaps we value QS too highly. Perhaps we don't value various hitting statistics enough. The issue is that we're not really looking into any of this and a taking a detailed look at what impact various ideas would have on the league (except for the Ks a little bit). I think you keep trying to change the argument.

No I am not. My argument for YEARS has been that we should not reward K's. But I have been consistently shot down. I still believe that, but am willing to make K's worth 0.5 points as a compromise.

[Soriambi]

No I am not. My argument for YEARS has been that we should not reward K's. But I have been consistently shot down. I still believe that, but am willing to make K's worth 0.5 points as a compromise.

What I meant was that you're changing my argument, or just not getting what I'm saying. Sax seems to have understood, though. I really appreciate that work, Sax. Of those options, I think I do like the Ks to .5 best, though I'm still curious as to what would happen to batters by eliminating the offensive K penalty and leaving Ks at 1 or eliminating the offensive K penalty AND switching Ks to .5. I'm interested in balance here, but I'm also interested in the scoring change that makes the most sense baseball stats-wise. I don't think E is necessarily wrong about Ks being overvalued at 1, but I also think (at this point, as I think I was the one who originally implemented it many moons ago) that batter Ks are inappropriately penalized.

[Saxmania]

I ran some options in Excel:

Option A - reduce Ks to 0.5
Option B - reduce Ws to 3
Option C - Option A + B

The results below for the top 100 starters. If people desperately want more choices, or want to know the relief impact, let me know and I'll try to run them.

I also toyed with the idea of limiting QS to 3, but I don't believe in it - I really like the QS scoring category, and I think it rewards pretty much what we want to reward.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Hitman23]

I was also in the camp of awarding batters more rather than penalizing pitchers. Or at least lowering their rewards. Eric's argument holds a lot of validity in my mind, even though I know in all formats of FBB a strikeout is counted whether it's more important as an out or not. However in our league, with the way we keep score, it's more about effectiveness than it is about individual stats. (which is why I think the CG, PG, and SO bonuses in most leagues are stupid).