The Red Sox Thread

[RenoHightower]

Ortiz says a lot of things.

For example, he says he's against cheating in baseball, while he himself is a cheater, and also a liar.

[RenoHightower]

I also think that Red Sox fans are going to be very disappointed with what they get from Will Middlebrooks going forward. A 70:13 K:BB ratio is quite terrible, and dare I say Francoeurian. His minor league numbers are actually worse than Francoeur's.

[NerfBall55]

there were three reasons actually

1B Gonzalez
3B Middlebrooks
DH Ortiz

they weren't going to start Gonzalez in RF for 100 games.

Since they traded him for nothing, there were reasons other than that. They could have waited to see if he gravitated higher and got something for him. They wanted him off the team pretty badly.

[Bronson'sCornrows]

Timmy,

How does " not getting any better " translate to "weakest it's been since the early 90's " ?

Was the division weak last year? No. While the O's might lose the magic they had this year, I think they won't be the doormat they've been for so long ( a role the sawx took over last year ) The Jays will improve just in the fact that they probably won't have the same number of injuries. Tampa will continue to challenge w/ the pitching they have- they'll always remain competitive.

Maintaining strength does not equal getting weaker

That's what I thought about the Sox going into 2012. Somehow, we managed to have even more injuries.

Well it's not like he's shown anything at the MLB level to deserve a spot on the 25. And I don't really see his value high enough to bring back anything special. He's better off being injury insurance at AAA.

I agree, more or less. I do think he could bring back a solid reliever from a team in serious need of catching depth, considering his numbers at AAA. Personally, I think he's of more value to us as insurance, though.

I also think that Red Sox fans are going to be very disappointed with what they get from Will Middlebrooks going forward. A 70:13 K:BB ratio is quite terrible, and dare I say Francoeurian. His minor league numbers are actually worse than Francoeur's.

I agree with this, too, actually. We'll see, he was certainly better than I was expecting him to be last year, but the only way he'll be able to maintain or supersede that level of production is if he seriously improves his patience and pitch selection.

[ArodEra]

[35Knucklecurve]

I don't remember seeing this one before. That was a textbook flying tackle.

[TommyK8]

Timmy,

How does " not getting any better " translate to "weakest it's been since the early 90's " ?

Was the division weak last year? No. While the O's might lose the magic they had this year, I think they won't be the doormat they've been for so long ( a role the sawx took over last year ) The Jays will improve just in the fact that they probably won't have the same number of injuries. Tampa will continue to challenge w/ the pitching they have- they'll always remain competitive.

Maintaining strength does not equal getting weaker

Tell me, since 1994, how many Yankee teams do you think were weaker than the Yankee team of 2012? Do you see the Yankees improving next year with ARod and Jeter getting a year older? Obviously, the Red Sox were the weakest they've been in that timespan. That's what I mean as I look forward to next year and forecast that the AL East will be the weakest its been in almost 2 decades.

[TommyK8]

I also think that Red Sox fans are going to be very disappointed with what they get from Will Middlebrooks going forward. A 70:13 K:BB ratio is quite terrible, and dare I say Francoeurian. His minor league numbers are actually worse than Francoeur's.

You might be right, but also keep in mind that Middlebrooks was only 23 years old and a rookie in 2012. Hopefully, he continues to improve in his age 24 year in 2013.

Check out Middlebrooks' minor league stats. He improved each and every year even as he moved up in class.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=middle001wil

[ieddyi]

Tell me, since 1994, how many Yankee teams do you think were weaker than the Yankee team of 2012? Do you see the Yankees improving next year with ARod and Jeter getting a year older? Obviously, the Red Sox were the weakest they've been in that timespan. That's what I mean as I look forward to next year and forecast that the AL East will be the weakest its been in almost 2 decades.

Are those mileage stats peer reviewed?

[NerfBall55]

Tell me, since 1994, how many Yankee teams do you think were weaker than the Yankee team of 2012? Do you see the Yankees improving next year with ARod and Jeter getting a year older? Obviously, the Red Sox were the weakest they've been in that timespan. That's what I mean as I look forward to next year and forecast that the AL East will be the weakest its been in almost 2 decades.

They're also getting a full year of Garder, Rivera, and possibly some contribution from Pineda and will still add players.

The sox aren't competing next year. Let's watch the off season.

[RenoHightower]

You might be right, but also keep in mind that Middlebrooks was only 23 years old and a rookie in 2012. Hopefully, he continues to improve in his age 24 year in 2013.

Check out Middlebrooks' minor league stats. He improved each and every year even as he moved up in class.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=middle001wil

He's still never shown any plate control whatsoever. Guys who walk that little and strikeout that much don't tend to have lengthy, impressive MLB careers. He's going to be a crummy journeyman, bouncing around the league within three seasons.

[RenoHightower]

Tell me, since 1994, how many Yankee teams do you think were weaker than the Yankee team of 2012? Do you see the Yankees improving next year with ARod and Jeter getting a year older? Obviously, the Red Sox were the weakest they've been in that timespan. That's what I mean as I look forward to next year and forecast that the AL East will be the weakest its been in almost 2 decades.

That's not what you meant, because you made that statement in regards to the Red Sox' ability to contend in the AL East next year. Certainly the fact that the Red Sox are an utter embarrassment and joke of a franchise doesn't help the Red Sox compete, particularly in a division in which potentially four teams (those being the Yankees, Orioles, Rays, and Blue Jays - not the Red Sox, who are terrible) could compete for a playoff spot.

[snapple]

>Red Sox suck
>"al east going to be weak"

typical red sox fans.

[TommyK8]

They're also getting a full year of Garder, Rivera, and possibly some contribution from Pineda and will still add players.

The sox aren't competing next year. Let's watch the off season.

With all due respect, Pettitte will be 40 next year, Kuroda 38 (if he comes back), ARod will be 38 and looked spent by the end of the year, Jeter will be 39 and coming off ankle surgery, and Rivera is 43 and also coming off surgery. Teixeira's stats have gone down every year since 2008. Sabathia went to see Dr. Andrews and both he and Teixeira will be 33 next year. I don't think Granderson is getting better. Anything is possible in baseball, and maybe Cashman will pull a rabbit out of his hat or the ownership will abandon the goal to get under the salary cap by 2014. But all things being equal, I don't know how anyone can look at the Yankees and predict that they will be as good as in 2012, or that they aren't the weakest Yankee team since the early 1990's.

The Red Sox are definitely their weakest since the early 1990's. The Orioles, I think, had a cinderella type year and they will be hard-pressed to repeat that. The Rays have some great young players, but they have a pretty weak offense and are losing Upton and Pena. I stand by my statement that the AL East is the weakest it's been in 20 years, and I think the balance of power has finally swung out of the East.

[snapple]

If Tex/Arod are healthy, I bet next year they carry the team. CC is a beast, counting him out is silly.

Kuroda is so underrated. It actually infuriates me.

Pettitte has become a finesse pitcher. And he did really well this year.

Jeter is still Jeter.

[TommyK8]

OK. Well my point is not to attack the Yankees. They are obviously better than the Red Sox, and if you think that none of the age is going to catch up to them, and ARod will bounce right back, hey it could happen. But I don't think the trend or the age factors are in their favor, and I don't think they are going to be as good next year. Hence, the AL East will be its weakest in 20 years.

[RenoHightower]

OK. Well my point is not to attack the Yankees. They are obviously better than the Red Sox, and if you think that none of the age is going to catch up to them, and ARod will bounce right back, hey it could happen. But I don't think the trend or the age factors are in their favor, and I don't think they are going to be as good next year. Hence, the AL East will be its weakest in 20 years.

Except Baltimore and Tampa Bay are young teams, so you're still wrong. The Yankees won the AL East with 89 wins in 2000. You don't think the division is going to be better than that?

[ieddyi]

Except Baltimore and Tampa Bay are young teams, so you're still wrong. The Yankees won the AL East with 89 wins in 2000. You don't think the division is going to be better than that?

Timmy's just a bitter type who clings to his gas mileage and the oft repeated meme ( going on 8 years now ) that the Yanks are old and gonna disintegrate any minute

[TommyK8]

No, I don't think the 2000 Yankees were a weaker team at all. I think they had some regular season struggles down the stretch but were a much stronger team and they won the World Series. But it's not just the Yankees. The Red Sox haven't been this bad since the early 90's either. My point is about the division as a whole.

As for the Yankees in particular, there is the argument that injuries were rampant on the 2012 team, but I don't see how anyone right now can reaonably predict that the 2013 team will be better. And eddy, the difference between this year's team and others in past years is that the Yankees always were ready to spend. They are now saying that they are going to cut back. Obviously, if they forget about the $189 million by 2014, this outlook might change.

[YankeePride1967]

If the Yanks resign Kuroda I think there will be very little difference between the 2012 and the 2013 Yankees. Toronto just got Josh Johnson, Mark Buehrle and Jose Reyes and even without them are a team on the rise, Baltimore will be very good and so will Tampa Bay. Other than Boston I see a very strong division once again.

[False1]

Yeah, looks like AA is laughing at this AL East eulogy thingy going on here. Nice haul for the Jays.

[awy]

dump dat payroll like it's hot thorium

[TommyK8]

Well as I said, things could change, and it looks like the Jays just got a lot better. I can't believe the amount of salary they are taking on if the reports of this deal are correct. Buerhle has 3 years and $48 million left on his contract. Reyes has 5 years and $96 million left, and Johnson makes $13.750 million next year. That's a lot of money for the Jays. I never saw this trade coming.

[False1]

Well as I said, things could change, and it looks like the Jays just got a lot better. I can't believe the amount of salary they are taking on if the reports of this deal are correct. Buerhle has 3 years and $48 million left on his contract. Reyes has 5 years and $96 million left, and Johnson makes $13.750 million next year. That's a lot of money for the Jays. I never saw this trade coming.

Given that they (still can't believe it) were able to shed Wells to the Angels, that's $42MM they saved for the next two years. Their payroll was $83MM and they have a few unimportant players coming off the books. I can believe it. They were well positioned to make a deal like this.

[WaltKowalski]

Since they traded him for nothing, there were reasons other than that. They could have waited to see if he gravitated higher and got something for him. They wanted him off the team pretty badly.

They wanted him off the team because they couldn't fit 3 players into two slots anymore.
Middlebrooks crushed AAA pitching already last year and was more than holding his own in the bigs.
Gonzalez couldn't keep playing RF all year and that may have played a part in his early offensive struggles.
And Youkiilis wasn't hitting even when they would push him out there for a few weeks straight.
If he was killing the ball and they were getting bad offers, they'd just hold on to him. But he sucked and they were still doing OK standings-wise at the time of the deal. It made sense for everyone to move on.