The Red Sox Thread

[sweet_lou_14]

Valentine letting him pitch after that long delay and after he had given up six run was amazing.

So true. Bobby V likes to say managers can't win games, but they can lose them.

[NerfBall55]

aww, pjfan - i feel for you buddy. It still seems like a miracle that with all the bad play and all the issues and injuries, they are only that far out.

It only seems like a miracle since this is the first year and you're not used to it

A .500 ball club, which normally would be ignored, will almost always be within a shot of the second WC until September.

Please remove any rogue ounces of credit you may be giving them from you system.

[aeromac76]

I'll tell you it has become comical to hear the media talk about the Sox.
They always bring up injuries. And to be honest, it is what it is. But the Yankees have been beat up too.

But the one missing thing that is almost universally forgotten about (in the media, not here) is that their erstwhile uber 1-2 starters punch is so far under .500 that it is stunning.

The injuries are not why the Red Sox are languishing near the bottom of the division and barely clinging to life. It is Lester and Beckett's incredibly awful performances. It is also why thinking their lineup getting healthy is going to help them overcome all is fool's gold. Unless Lester and Beckett pitch like aces, they are not going to make a move.

The Yankees have had incredibly bad luck with injuries too, especially recently. The difference is that CC and Kuroda have not spit the bit. The difference between the Yankees and Sox is not injuries as so many would want us to believe. The difference is that CC and Kuroda have so far outpitched Beckett and Lester that it's not even close. Our top end horses are running a solid triple crown race, and theirs are lying on the track lame begging for euthanasia.

The injury issue is a smokescreen.

[nhyankeefan]

I think lately the media has picked up on the struggles of Beckett and Lester and their impact on the Sox. It will be interesting to see how they respond considering they both appear to be rather sensitive as of late.

[Bronson'sCornrows]

You know the worst thing........,worst case scenario, they are 5.5 out of the 2nd WC after today. Which is hardly an insurmountable lead. Somehow, they sneak into that spot and pull out a W in a 1 game playoff. They will then proceed to get smoked in the next series.

Worst thing because management will then say, "see?? We told you we were alright. We're a playoff team. Now, we're going to avoid injuries next year and be juuuuusssssst fine"

This team needs a makeover and it starts with the manager.

Don't get me wrong, I love playoff baseball and I love when my team is in it. But this team is just not capable of making that kind of run. Not when your 1-2 pitchers are 15-27 and 2-12 since June 1.

Kind of agree here. Part of me wants to entirely miss the playoffs at this point just to force the issue. Best case scenario, Lucky Larry loses credibility and a little bit of power while Cherington, for better or worse, gains a little autonomy. I want to see what he is really capable of and we're never going to get that as long as he's under Lucchino's thumb. Also, the worse we do from here on out, the quicker and more enthusiastically Bobby V gets run out of town and I just can't wait for it.

Of course, there's another side of me that says that we've all seen other mediocre teams go all the way after lucking their way into the playoffs. Who knows?

All things considered, I'd rather see the structure changed for long term success than to luck into a hot run at the end of the season.

[4bronxbombers]

Beckett got boo'd badly last night. I'm surprised he didn't look at the fans and spit or something. He had a disgusted look on this face when he left the mound - I'm sure he was pissed at himself for giving up so many runs.

[Bronson'sCornrows]

I'll tell you it has become comical to hear the media talk about the Sox.
They always bring up injuries. And to be honest, it is what it is. But the Yankees have been beat up too.

But the one missing thing that is almost universally forgotten about (in the media, not here) is that their erstwhile uber 1-2 starters punch is so far under .500 that it is stunning.

The injuries are not why the Red Sox are languishing near the bottom of the division and barely clinging to life. It is Lester and Beckett's incredibly awful performances. It is also why thinking their lineup getting healthy is going to help them overcome all is fool's gold. Unless Lester and Beckett pitch like aces, they are not going to make a move.

The Yankees have had incredibly bad luck with injuries too, especially recently. The difference is that CC and Kuroda have not spit the bit. The difference between the Yankees and Sox is not injuries as so many would want us to believe. The difference is that CC and Kuroda have so far outpitched Beckett and Lester that it's not even close. Our top end horses are running a solid triple crown race, and theirs are lying on the track lame begging for euthanasia.

The injury issue is a smokescreen.

Old news. Sox fans were saying this very same thing here in this thread a month ago and the media have been all over Beckett and Lester for two or three weeks now. Maybe it has just taken a while for everyone else to notice? I dunno.

[NerfBall55]

Of course, there's another side of me that says that we've all seen other mediocre teams go all the way after lucking their way into the playoffs. Who knows?

The thing is, if the sox make the playoffs, it means Lester and Beckett have improved, so there's that too. They cannot pass all the teams ahead of them if they don't.

It's unlikely they would pitch great, get to the playoffs, flip the switch back and stink again.

[NerfBall55]

Beckett got boo'd badly last night. I'm surprised he didn't look at the fans and spit or something.

I'm not, that would indicate he actually cared what they thought.

[4bronxbombers]

I'm not, that would indicate he actually cared what they thought.

Good point!

[4bronxbombers]

This was in the Hartford Courant today. Fire Valentine website.....

http://firevalentine.com/

[NerfBall55]

Valentine's a knucklehead, but this is hardly his fault.

[Casey at the Bat]

I blame Jason Varitek. They'd have at least 3 no-hitters between Lester and Beckett if 'Tek was still here.

[ChinMusic]

Kind of agree here. Part of me wants to entirely miss the playoffs at this point just to force the issue. Best case scenario, Lucky Larry loses credibility and a little bit of power while Cherington, for better or worse, gains a little autonomy. I want to see what he is really capable of and we're never going to get that as long as he's under Lucchino's thumb. Also, the worse we do from here on out, the quicker and more enthusiastically Bobby V gets run out of town and I just can't wait for it.

Of course, there's another side of me that says that we've all seen other mediocre teams go all the way after lucking their way into the playoffs. Who knows?

All things considered, I'd rather see the structure changed for long term success than to luck into a hot run at the end of the season.

It can go either way.

[False1]

Valentine's a knucklehead, but this is hardly his fault.

Even if it's not his fault, he's terrible and given that he never should have been hired to begin with he should unquestionably be fired.

Although I hope whatever trance he put them under to hire him is still in place, as I really hope he's still around in '13.

[Bronson'sCornrows]

The thing is, if the sox make the playoffs, it means Lester and Beckett have improved, so there's that too. They cannot pass all the teams ahead of them if they don't.

It's unlikely they would pitch great, get to the playoffs, flip the switch back and stink again.

Some truth to this, too. FWIW, Lester has pitched a bit better than his lines have looked the past few games. Not sure whether that will lead to anything positive, but there it is.

[4degrees]

I also believe that the whole injury thing is overrated. Bailey was bad luck, but when players have an injury history or are old, then there's causality to it. They went into the season with a bunch of players who haven't been all that healthy over the past few years (Pedroia, Elsbury, Beckett, etc). They knew that Dice K was an iffy proposition and they wouldn't have Lackey at all. They say that it was bad luck, but the way the roster's been manufactured, they made their own luck. Missing these guys certainly hurts you, but they act like it was a bolt from the blue that cursed their season, when in reality, it just wasn't a team designed to keep everyone on the field.

[just-blaze]

I hope this run Bobby keeps talking about starts in mid Sept. when you play 12 straight against the Rays and Orioles.

[False1]

I also believe that the whole injury thing is overrated. Bailey was bad luck, but when players have an injury history or are old, then there's causality to it. They went into the season with a bunch of players who haven't been all that healthy over the past few years (Pedroia, Elsbury, Beckett, etc). They knew that Dice K was an iffy proposition and they wouldn't have Lackey at all. They say that it was bad luck, but the way the roster's been manufactured, they made their own luck. Missing these guys certainly hurts you, but they act like it was a bolt from the blue that cursed their season, when in reality, it just wasn't a team designed to keep everyone on the field.

I'm crossing my fingers that they sell low on Lester in the offseason.

[ieddyi]

Rosenthal: Sox sign Podsednik to Major League deal


okaaaaaay......

[YankeePride1967]

Relax Sox fans. Bobby V says the Sox are a playoff team.

[RenoHightower]

Relax Sox fans. Bobby V says the Sox are a playoff team.

This thing lately where ESPN is reporting, as headlines, quotes from people saying exactly what you'd expect them to say (Valentine saying that the team he manages is a playoff team, Bonds saying he's definitely a HOFer, Leyland saying his player should win the MVP) is getting really annoying. These are not news stories, nor are they interesting in any way.

[Bronson'sCornrows]

Relax Sox fans. Bobby V says the Sox are a playoff team.

I gotta say- that's a MAJOR load off my shoulders.

[Louisville Slugger]

So the Sox basically have to win two out of every three games to finish the season with 89 wins.

[Yankee Tripper]

So the Sox basically have to win two out of every three games to finish the season with 89 wins.

I was in the camp that they still had a pretty good shot 2 weeks ago. But now it is doable (as Cards and Rays showed last year) but it is a long shot. They are down to to under 10% playoff odds on both cool standings and baseball prospectus and that seems fair even with teh 2 WC spots this year. Though with every loss to bad teams like the Twins & Indians they look like more and more of a long shot.

Their pitching is looking like it is what it is at this point and that's probably going to be the thing that keeps them from making any kind of sustained winning streak they are going to need if they want to get back in it. The thing they have going for them is they still have a fair amount of games against 2 of the teams directly ahead of them that they need to catch and they probably need to play .800 ball against those teams to do it.

Unfortunately for them the Tiger & Angels both look like more complete teams than the Red Sox at this point and they need to catch at least one of those teams too in addition to Oakland, Baltimore & Tampa. The 5.5 games isn't the toughest part, it's the number of teams they need to leap frog.