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  1. #4626

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    There was such little margin for error for this team, even when healthy, IMO.
    I think it is a bit premature to discuss the 2012 Red Sox in the past tense. There is a long season of ebb and flow ahead of us, and while the weaknesses of the Sox have been exposed by injuries and performances below expectations, there is a lot of talent on the team, some of it on the DL, and a lot of resources available to the franchise.

    I would love to see the Sox compete with the Orioles for 4th place, but I'm not assuming that is going to happen just because they are in a trough right now.

  2. #4627

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    I think it is a bit premature to discuss the 2012 Red Sox in the past tense. There is a long season of ebb and flow ahead of us, and while the weaknesses of the Sox have been exposed by injuries and performances below expectations, there is a lot of talent on the team, some of it on the DL, and a lot of resources available to the franchise.

    I would love to see the Sox compete with the Orioles for 4th place, but I'm not assuming that is going to happen just because they are in a trough right now.
    I meant "was" in relation to the expectations at the beginning of the season, as opposed to where they are now in terms of injuries, performance, etc. I was stating that even before they were at the spot they are now, there was still little margin for error.

    But I stated I wasn't concerned about this team before the season started, an I'm even less so now. I do believe they have some talented players, as you state, but I don't feel the sum of the parts is getting them to 93+ wins. 4th place would be funny, but my statements were around missing the postseason, regardless of whether that means 3rd or 4th.

    I disagree about the resources available to them. I don't think there's many options for them, if you believe the payroll constraints, and the fact that there doesn't appear to be any MiLB pitching depth.

    Yeah, of course baseball can prove anyone wrong at any time, but I'm not going to "hedge" against that. That's inherently built into every post I make.
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  3. #4628

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    I disagree about the resources available to them. I don't think there's many options for them, if you believe the payroll constraints, and the fact that there doesn't appear to be any MiLB pitching depth.
    I think you're right.

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    Yeah, of course baseball can prove anyone wrong at any time, but I'm not going to "hedge" against that. That's inherently built into every post I make.
    Yeah, I need one of those blanket disclaimers too!
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  4. #4629
    Attorney at Bird Law Bronson'sCornrows's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    In fairness to Ben, they gave him a roster with no flexibility and no money. And that's where the defense of the Crawford and Lackey signings falls apart -- they backed themselves into a corner by signing those guys and Gonzalez, given that they team works to not exceed the salary cap. And I don't see that farm system bailing them out anytime soon.
    That's how I see things, too. It's his first season, he has no flexibility, and he was handed a very flawed roster. Even if he had flexibility, he isn't going to be given the same room to breathe that was extended to Theo. Cherrington certainly isn't and might not ever be in a position to stand up to Lucchino like Epstein often did.

  5. #4630
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson'sCornrows View Post
    That's how I see things, too. It's his first season, he has no flexibility, and he was handed a very flawed roster. Even if he had flexibility, he isn't going to be given the same room to breathe that was extended to Theo. Cherrington certainly isn't and might not ever be in a position to stand up to Lucchino like Epstein often did.
    Also, he didn't get to pick his manager..wasn't Valentine LL's pick?

  6. #4631
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Understanding they have a few injuries (Crawford, Ellsbury, Bailey, I don't count Dice K as one that matters) I have never seen a team with a payroll that high be so flawed.
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  7. #4632
    Attorney at Bird Law Bronson'sCornrows's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanksfanintoronto View Post
    I dont even know how Mike Lupica is still allowed to work in the city of NY
    I've always wondered the same thing vis a vis Shaughnessy and Boston. I've never met anyone who enjoys his articles or takes his bull................ seriously, but obviously someone out there does.

  8. #4633
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I get what you're saying, but it's not as if the Sox were forced into signing him. They wanted him, but they abandoned their principles to get him and really tied up some payroll that could have been used (particularly this year) to fill other needs more efficiently. He might have been the biggest name on the market, but he wasn't and isn't worthy of the second largest contract ever given to an OFer in MLB history. He's not worth it in his prime, and he certainly won't be worth it as he fades (assuming he hasn't started already).
    I thank you and others here who've answered my pestering questions about Crawford.

    Coming into the signing, what do you think were the good and bad about his games with Tampa Bay? How do you think he'd have helped Boston, as to what he brought to the table?
    Dr King (1929-68): Make the Dream a Reality.
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  9. #4634
    Attorney at Bird Law Bronson'sCornrows's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by b-ball-lunachick View Post
    Also, he didn't get to pick his manager..wasn't Valentine LL's pick?
    Yes, he was. FWIW, Theo's picks weren't always better. IIRC, the Lackey move was largely pushed by Lucchino et al., while Theo was the one who made the massive drive for Crawford. Both ................ moves. That being said, I believe that the less ownership interferes with the construction of the team, the better. See the late 90's era NYY teams with minimal interference vs. the 80's ones that Steinbrenner constantly tampered with.

    Still crossing my fingers that Bard stays in the rotation... he's still scheduled to start on Friday, so despite what I believe right now, they might honestly intend for this to be a temporary move.

  10. #4635
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Yankee View Post
    I thank you and others here who've answered my pestering questions about Crawford.

    Coming into the signing, what do you think were the good and bad about his games with Tampa Bay? How do you think he'd have helped Boston, as to what he brought to the table?
    He certainly represented an upgrade in the Boston OF that offseason. With Ellsbury's injury costing him that season, and guys like McDonald, Nava and the ghosts of JD Drew and Mike Cameron getting most of the playing time they certainly were in a tough spot. When Werth signed his deal, it set a very high bar for Crawford. The Sox acted in desperation, and it's going to cost them. Historically they'd never go to 7 years and they'd set a value on a player and if that cost was exceeded they would pass. They broke those principles on this one.

    One of Crawford's skills is his range in LF, but that gets devalued in Fenway. Other than that, he's a burner with decent contact skills and decent power. He brought his A game to the plate in a contract year, by far his best season to date, and based on the market and the need Crawford's agent was able to convince them to bend over backwards.

  11. #4636

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson'sCornrows View Post
    Still crossing my fingers that Bard stays in the rotation... he's still scheduled to start on Friday, so despite what I believe right now, they might honestly intend for this to be a temporary move.
    I think they have to keep him in the rotation, although this is an odd move.

    He hasn't been horrible, and looked really decent at times. It's going to take a year of seasoning at least.

    Who would replace him anyway? Matzusaka? Haven't been paying attention.
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  12. #4637
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    He certainly represented an upgrade in the Boston OF that offseason. With Ellsbury's injury costing him that season, and guys like McDonald, Nava and the ghosts of JD Drew and Mike Cameron getting most of the playing time they certainly were in a tough spot. When Werth signed his deal, it set a very high bar for Crawford. The Sox acted in desperation, and it's going to cost them. Historically they'd never go to 7 years and they'd set a value on a player and if that cost was exceeded they would pass. They broke those principles on this one.

    One of Crawford's skills is his range in LF, but that gets devalued in Fenway. Other than that, he's a burner with decent contact skills and decent power. He brought his A game to the plate in a contract year, by far his best season to date, and based on the market and the need Crawford's agent was able to convince them to bend over backwards.
    Wow, great reply. Thanks very much.
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  13. #4638
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    I think they have to keep him in the rotation, although this is an odd move.

    He hasn't been horrible, and looked really decent at times. It's going to take a year of seasoning at least.

    Who would replace him anyway? Matzusaka? Haven't been paying attention.
    Aaron Cook has been pitching well in Pawtucket, in fact I think he's on the same schedule as Bard so if he took his place in the rotation it would be on normal rest.

  14. #4639
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by b-ball-lunachick View Post
    Also, he didn't get to pick his manager..wasn't Valentine LL's pick?
    Yeah, Cherington was set to name someone else, but that person didn't "wow" LL, Henry and Werner so they interviewed Valentine (in fact I don't think Cherington interviewed him) and then gave him the job pretty quickly.

  15. #4640
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nhyankeefan View Post
    Aaron Cook has been pitching well in Pawtucket, in fact I think he's on the same schedule as Bard so if he took his place in the rotation it would be on normal rest.
    The knuckleheads on ESPN were talking about Aaron Cook like he was some uber-prospect the other day.

    I had to double check and make sure they were talking about the same 33 year old Aaron Cook that got rocked in Colorado. Yep, that same one with the ~1.4 career WHIP and 3.8 career K/9 and 74 ERA+ last season.

    But dang, he's pitched 27 Pawtuckalicious innings of 1.33 ERA ball! Yeah, with a 9 BBs and 8 Ks. That should hold up well in the AL East.

    Historic Depth!!!

  16. #4641

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    I was hoping maybe someone could summerize what Bowden wrote here? http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/the-...st%3fid%3d3845

    I never go for these things but I think it would be comedy more than anything to see his ideas on how to fix the sox.

  17. #4642
    Attorney at Bird Law Bronson'sCornrows's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    I think they have to keep him in the rotation, although this is an odd move.

    He hasn't been horrible, and looked really decent at times. It's going to take a year of seasoning at least.

    Who would replace him anyway? Matzusaka? Haven't been paying attention.
    They're touting Aaron Cook, who has put up decent numbers in Pawtucket so far; 3-0 with an ERA of 1.33 and 1.11 WHIP. On the negative side, those numbers were posted in Pawtucket and he's walked more batters than he's struck out so far (which, admittedly, might not be such a big deal given the small sample size and the fact that he's a groundout pitcher). Sox picked him up on an incentive laden minor league deal where he can opt out if he doesn't make the major league roster by May 1st if he so chooses.

    Daisuke also made a rehab start earlier this week and will likely be ready much earlier than previously anticipated. Personally, I'd rather continue to roll with Bard and Doubront. The Sox fans currently panicking over the current struggles largely disagree with me, but I'm looking long-term here and they aren't.

  18. #4643
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson'sCornrows View Post
    Personally, I'd rather continue to roll with Bard and Doubront.
    I agree. They have looked way better than your top 3.

    I loved seeing Bard in the pen the other day. I hope they put him there for good. He could be a real good starter if given the chance to grow with time.
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  19. #4644

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Carl Crawford, still experiencing soreness in left elbow, will visit Dr. James Andrews soon. Exact date not known. #RedSoxTalk
    — Sean McAdam(@Sean_McAdam) April 25, 2012

  20. #4645

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Ortiz is on absolute fire.
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  21. #4646
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    The knuckleheads on ESPN were talking about Aaron Cook like he was some uber-prospect the other day.

    I had to double check and make sure they were talking about the same 33 year old Aaron Cook that got rocked in Colorado. Yep, that same one with the ~1.4 career WHIP and 3.8 career K/9 and 74 ERA+ last season.

    But dang, he's pitched 27 Pawtuckalicious innings of 1.33 ERA ball! Yeah, with a 9 BBs and 8 Ks. That should hold up well in the AL East.

    Historic Depth!!!
    was it gammons? maybe they think Aaron Cook = Aaron Small kind of lightning in a bottle.

  22. #4647

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    He certainly represented an upgrade in the Boston OF that offseason. With Ellsbury's injury costing him that season, and guys like McDonald, Nava and the ghosts of JD Drew and Mike Cameron getting most of the playing time they certainly were in a tough spot. When Werth signed his deal, it set a very high bar for Crawford. The Sox acted in desperation, and it's going to cost them. Historically they'd never go to 7 years and they'd set a value on a player and if that cost was exceeded they would pass. They broke those principles on this one.

    One of Crawford's skills is his range in LF, but that gets devalued in Fenway. Other than that, he's a burner with decent contact skills and decent power. He brought his A game to the plate in a contract year, by far his best season to date, and based on the market and the need Crawford's agent was able to convince them to bend over backwards.
    One other + for Crawford is that he was regarded as a good guy, great teammate and "lead by example" type of hard worker in Tampa. I guess that didn't translate as well with a veteran team with an established leadership hierarchy, but it should be a good thing for them going forward if Crawford can get himself right physically and mentally

  23. #4648
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    Ortiz is on absolute fire.
    It's been one of the very few bright spots so far this season. He is hitting the s*it out of the ball. Going to all fields. It's a shame that they may be wasting one of his last great (so far) seasons.

  24. #4649
    Attorney at Bird Law Bronson'sCornrows's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by just-blaze View Post
    I agree. They have looked way better than your top 3.

    I loved seeing Bard in the pen the other day. I hope they put him there for good. He could be a real good starter if given the chance to grow with time.
    Beckett has actually been very good since his first, awful start of the season (which I tend to disregard as extended ST for SP anyway). In the three starts since he's sporting a 2.57 ERA, 1.05 WHIP, 7.29 H/9, and 2.6 K/BB. Over those three starts, the only peripheral that's a bit off for him is his K/9 @ 5.57. This, too, is thrown off a bit by his second start of the season where his velocity was way down for some reason... he went 8IP, giving up 5 hits, 1 BB, 1 ER, and only striking out 1.

    Lester was great over his first two starts and horrible over his next two for a net gain of bad while Buchholz has just been terrible all season. If you asked me before the season, these would have been the two least likely culprits, too.

    For me, leaving Bard and Doubront in the rotation has little to do with how much better they've looked than the top 3 (it probably won't look anything like that by the ASB) and much more to do with the potential I think both have if allowed to develop. Bard's stuff is already way better than your typical 4-5 guy and it looks like his ceiling could be as high as upper-mid rotation if his FB control (esp. keeping it down) and changeup both continue to improve. No guarantee he's going to get there, but I want to take the risk. Doubront probably isn't much better than we've already seen, but he already looks like a serviceable 4-5 type starter and could get a little better as he refines his FB control. His change and breaking stuff aren't dominant pitches but they're solid and, overall, there's a lot to like about a lefty who throws mid-90's with solid (though unimpressive) secondary stuff sitting at the end of your rotation.

  25. #4650

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pjfan View Post
    It's been one of the very few bright spots so far this season. He is hitting the s*it out of the ball. Going to all fields. It's a shame that they may be wasting one of his last great (so far) seasons.
    Agreed on the first three points.

    You can just see him completely locked in. He's ready to hit the first good pitch he sees, and doesn't swing if it's junk.
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