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  1. #2401
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    theDurk's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hellonewman View Post
    In the era of Used Car Bud it seems like 100 years ago that a man like that could have been commissioner. I miss him.
    I played squash against him at Yale in the early 70's (before he was President). Faculty played on the residential college intramural teams. He was Master of one of the residential colleges (Ezra Stiles) and the guys over there loved him. Just a fun, brilliant man who really loved baseball.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  2. #2402

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but here's a selfish David Ortiz interrupting a Francona presser in August, foul-mouthed and all, because he just learned that the official scorer took an RBI away from him from the game the prior night and was pissed off. You can see how embarrassed and shocked Francona and the girl at the door are, trying to play it off as if Ortiz was being his usual lovable, cuddly self that Ortiz and the team laughingly try to portray him. It's very uncomfortable. (The video follows the article)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_919478.html


  3. #2403
    Devoted Member
    Gigi Buffon's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but here's a selfish David Ortiz interrupting a Francona presser in August, foul-mouthed and all, because he just learned that the official scorer took an RBI away from him from the game the prior night and was pissed off. You can see how embarrassed and shocked Francona and the girl at the door are, trying to play it off as if Ortiz was being his usual lovable, cuddly self that Ortiz and the team laughingly try to portray him. It's very uncomfortable. (The video follows the article)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_919478.html

    Admitedly I can't get enough of this deconstrction of the mythology surrounding the Red Sox. I found this tid bit from a Jackie MacMullen piece:

    Kevin Youkilis has always been a hot button...he turned so sour and cynical that his carping and insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs turned him into a detriment.
    Also the willingness of so many (in particular the guys doing the TBS studio show last night) to buy the story that Tito was not fired is pretty funny. He wanted them to pick up his option all year and they didn't. Wonder how much they paid him to put on that show yesterday and to keep his mouth shut. You won't see Tito writing any books.
    Plays the game the wrong way.

  4. #2404
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    matt2351's Avatar
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    Manhattan, NY

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but here's a selfish David Ortiz interrupting a Francona presser in August, foul-mouthed and all, because he just learned that the official scorer took an RBI away from him from the game the prior night and was pissed off. You can see how embarrassed and shocked Francona and the girl at the door are, trying to play it off as if Ortiz was being his usual lovable, cuddly self that Ortiz and the team laughingly try to portray him. It's very uncomfortable. (The video follows the article)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_919478.html
    I hadn't seen this. Classless - not surprising considering the way he comports himself after homeruns.

  5. #2405

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    Admitedly I can't get enough of this deconstrction of the mythology surrounding the Red Sox. I found this tid bit from a Jackie MacMullen piece:
    Kevin Youkilis has always been a hot button...he turned so sour and cynical that his carping and insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs turned him into a detriment.
    Well put. Good stuff about Youklis; first time I'm reading that.

    The Sox organization loves to create these characters that are so contrived and transparent, but that doesn't stop much of their fan base from wanting to believe it. I don't want to generalize, but often they will defend them no matter how contrary their actions are from their blatantly fabricated personas.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    Also the willingness of so many (in particular the guys doing the TBS studio show last night) to buy the story that Tito was not fired is pretty funny. He wanted them to pick up his option all year and they didn't. Wonder how much they paid him to put on that show yesterday and to keep his mouth shut. You won't see Tito writing any books.
    Been listening to WEEI and 98.5 (thanks YFiB) online and not to many of their hosts buying into the BS. They know darn well that Francona was fired. More than likely a deal was cut to save face, but I have to say that Francona is handling it well and in a professional manner regardless. He's a very likable guy.


  6. #2406

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    If you actually want to listen to something you can stand, try 98.5. It's still a Boston station, but it's much closer to objective. EEI is really the lowest common denominator, and even the reasonable Red Sox fans I know can't listen to it.
    Been listening to 98.5 online after I read this. Far better than WEEI. Thanks.


  7. #2407

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    I'm curious why a huge story about players drinking beer in the clubhouse during the game is only coming out now. My guess is that it's the usual Sox FO tactic - have a lacky sportswriter put Francona in a bad light - that he lost total control of the team - so there wouldn't be any backlash and fans will think that his parting was best for the team.

    So this story only comes out when it's apparent that Francona was a goner? Fishy, no? There are rarely amicable departures in Boston. Even the "puzzled" Evil Larry Lucchino had to chime in as usual.


  8. #2408

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    I'm curious why a huge story about players drinking beer in the clubhouse during the game is only coming out now. My guess is that it's the usual Sox FO tactic - have a lacky sportswriter put Francona in a bad light - that he lost total control of the team - so there wouldn't be any backlash and fans will think that his parting was best for the team.

    So this story only comes out when it's apparent that Francona was a goner? Fishy, no? There are rarely amicable departures in Boston. Even the "puzzled" Evil Larry Lucchino had to chime in as usual.
    This seems to come directly from the Mets School of PR. Leak a story with the intent of turning the public against the guy you want to get rid of. Instead of that happening, the public continues to love the guy you want to get rid of, but now has serious questions about the character and commitment of the guys on the pitching staff who have saddled the club with long term deals.

  9. #2409

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Im a little surprised there wasnt any backlash from the media or some fans for Boston having their presser basically during the ALDS games.
    If you listen to the fans you’ll be sitting with them soon enough.- Brian Cashman

  10. #2410
    NYYF Legend

    Octoberbaby's Avatar
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    Oct 2006
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    Los Angeles, Ca., a transplanted New Yorker

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    I'm not surprised a classy guy like Francona had a hard time managing a rag-tag, sore-loser bunch like the Red Sox. They are a bunch of complainers who probably never look at their own shortcomings. It is always someone else's fault when they fail.

    28 in '12

  11. #2411
    NYYF Cy Young


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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    I played squash against him at Yale in the early 70's (before he was President). Faculty played on the residential college intramural teams. He was Master of one of the residential colleges (Ezra Stiles) and the guys over there loved him. Just a fun, brilliant man who really loved baseball.
    As long as we are resurrecting Giamatti quotes, I wonder what the man who said this to striking players in 1981 would say to his beloved Red Sox after this season:

    "The people of America care about baseball, not about your squalid little squabbles. Reassume your dignity and remember that you (players during the 1981 strike) are the temporary custodians of an enduring public trust." Source: Baseball American (Tracy Ringolsby, October 10, 1989)

  12. #2412

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by R.V.47 View Post
    Im a little surprised there wasnt any backlash from the media or some fans for Boston having their presser basically during the ALDS games.
    Precisely. I guess it only applies to when the Sox are in the post season (see Arod). Yeah, I know it was the WS and a Boras thing, but trust me, the Yanks would have caught some flak in the media if the tables were turned and had they done this during the ALDS. Different set of rules apply.


  13. #2413
    Your 2014 NY Yankees JDPNYY's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    Precisely. I guess it only applies to when the Sox are in the post season (see Arod). Yeah, I know it was the WS and a Boras thing, but trust me, the Yanks would have caught some flak in the media if the tables were turned and had they done this during the ALDS. Different set of rules apply.
    It helps when the owner and the sham of commissioner are good buddies.
    Whatever you think...
    Well, you're wrong.

  14. #2414

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY View Post
    It helps when the owner and the sham of commissioner are good buddies.
    Yep, and who wouldn't even own the Sox if not for that sham of a commissioner.


  15. #2415
    Member

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    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankeeah View Post
    2011 was their last year with that.

    https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?...Iw&output=html
    Do you have one of these for every club??

  16. #2416

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    http://twitter.com/#!/Joelsherman1/status/120209943642112000
    Joel Sherman:
    I am shocked, but in last 36 hrs every exec talk to says believe #Redsox will give permssion and Theo will go to #Cubs to be GM

    7 hours ago

  17. #2417

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jenks View Post
    Do you have one of these for every club??
    http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/

    Click on a team, then click on 2011-16 payroll obligations.
    27 World Championships
    40 AL Pennants
    Liberated France Twice

  18. #2418
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Jax

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Why is Joel "shocked"? He's an idiot.
    Fistpumping like a champion.

  19. #2419
    Devoted Member
    Gigi Buffon's Avatar
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    Boston, MA

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    I'm curious why a huge story about players drinking beer in the clubhouse during the game is only coming out now. My guess is that it's the usual Sox FO tactic - have a lacky sportswriter put Francona in a bad light - that he lost total control of the team - so there wouldn't be any backlash and fans will think that his parting was best for the team.

    So this story only comes out when it's apparent that Francona was a goner? Fishy, no? There are rarely amicable departures in Boston. Even the "puzzled" Evil Larry Lucchino had to chime in as usual.
    Because far from being the tough media town it's portrayed to be, many Boston sportswiriters and electronic media commentators have become little more than flacks for the teams.

    I will say that they were calling BS on the RS FO on WEEI yesterday. Also the Comcast SpotsNet "Baseball Show" has been "must watch" TV the last two weeks. I know alot of people hate Dan Shaughnessy but the shots he's been throwing at Gammons have been great to hear. Two weeks ago he said that Gammons had been told by his "best friend" Theo to put out the "disconnect" story about Theo and Tito and yesterday they all noted the lack of Gammons on TV in the aftermath of the collapse and Shaughnessy said that Gammons had been "locked in the basement" by the Red Sox. Great stuff.
    Plays the game the wrong way.

  20. #2420

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/...your-head-spin
    "Josh [Beckett] has some real leadership qualities, but this time he didn't lead left, he didn't lead right, he led wrong," one uniformed member of the team said.

    Lucchino said after Friday's news conference that he had a "quite low" level of awareness "until very recently" that this had been going on. His reaction when he did find out? "Surprise," he said.

    And? "Yeah, there were some other emotions, but I'd rather just leave it at that," he said.

    An indifference by some players to conditioning. "Gluttony," one Sox executive called it, although he stopped after just one deadly sin.

    "A sense of entitlement," Francona said.

    No sense of urgency during the September apocalypse.

    No clubhouse leadership. "They don't need a leader," one prominent Sox player said Friday. "They need a babysitter."

  21. #2421
    2009 WORLD CHAMPIONS aeromac76's Avatar
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    May 2002
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    Huntington, NY

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    You know, I hate the Red Sox. It is tough for me to be objective about them.
    Most of you know full well, who have seen me post here for years, that I have made countless arguments against them, against their always sunny press clippings, against the predictions that they are the lovable underdogs become invincible vanquishers of all that is evil in NY with the Yankees.

    So perhaps I should sit here gloating.

    But I am going to do something that I never thought I could do, something I did not think was possible. I am going to staunchly defend them... (crap, did I really just say that???)

    The reason is this. I harken back to the days of David Wells. Out of shape beer swilling irresponsible oaf.
    But he was not always that. He was our lovable although imperfect, teddy bear. He was the guy who you always wanted on the mound in a big game, the never care attitude who could pitch in a pressure packed environment and give a big middle finger to the opponent when it counted.
    Then things changed. Did Wells become more fat? Did Wells become more irritable?
    Or did he just get a little older, get less effective, and get hurt in a way that forever probably cost us the 2003 World title?
    My point is when Wells was winning and helping us get titles, he was out imperfect everyman hero. When he could not do that anymore, he became a fat lazy stench of a man.

    The only thing that changed was Wells' ability to get people out. Whether age or effectiveness or health. When he stopped being able to help us win, he became a troll, a boar. A loudmouth ass.
    Truth was, he was always those things, he was just those things with the ability to steamroll the opposition, especially in October. When the last ability went away, then perception changed.


    So I come here today to cross party lines. To say that if somehow the Sox had managed one more win, and that if the Yankees had held on to 7 run lead with 6 outs to go, and that if the Sox based on their momentum of slipping in held a 2 games to none lead over Texas in the ALDS, that just those 6-9 hours of hitting and fielding and throwing, a mere speck on the blink of human life based on a game which has little real life consequence, then we'd be talking about Francona's extension, Epstein's genius, and the Red Sox harsh and unusual personalities being a perfect fit to right what was nearly a sunk ship. How their carefree personalities and never say die attitude and no rules for them clubhouse were the perfect remedy for what was nearly a lost season. And how those qualities would now be a springboard toward an inevitable clash of the titans with Philly for all the marbles in two weeks, just how everyone had predicted in February.

    In short, these problems are problems because Jon Papelbon blew an unthinkable save, and because the Yankees did not give a damn while the Rays roared back from the dead. They are problems because of an unthinkable and historic 10 minutes of events that will probably never happen again in our lifetimes.
    They are problems because Mariano Rivera and David Robertson were held back awaiting Detroit.
    Hell how different is history if Girardi knew game 1 of our series was to be postponed until Sat, and that if in knowing that, he decided his big relievers needed some work. Would the Rangers be about to face the green monster instead of the Rays?

    And if so, would all these incredible problems be problems at all? Or just lovable traits on a never say die team who recovered from adversity..

    To answer that question, let's revisit 2004, the most revered Red Sox team of all time. Beards and personalities and beer and who gives a crap attitude, the idiots.. What if Posada throws out Dave Roberts?
    What if Rivera who never walks anyone retires Millar instead of walking him?

    I'd bet we'd all remember those idiots in a far different definition of that word...
    I used to think I was crazy... Now I am sure of it..

  22. #2422

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by aeromac76 View Post
    You know, I hate the Red Sox. It is tough for me to be objective about them.
    Most of you know full well, who have seen me post here for years, that I have made countless arguments against them, against their always sunny press clippings, against the predictions that they are the lovable underdogs become invincible vanquishers of all that is evil in NY with the Yankees.

    So perhaps I should sit here gloating.

    But I am going to do something that I never thought I could do, something I did not think was possible. I am going to staunchly defend them... (crap, did I really just say that???)

    The reason is this. I harken back to the days of David Wells. Out of shape beer swilling irresponsible oaf.
    But he was not always that. He was our lovable although imperfect, teddy bear. He was the guy who you always wanted on the mound in a big game, the never care attitude who could pitch in a pressure packed environment and give a big middle finger to the opponent when it counted.
    Then things changed. Did Wells become more fat? Did Wells become more irritable?
    Or did he just get a little older, get less effective, and get hurt in a way that forever probably cost us the 2003 World title?
    My point is when Wells was winning and helping us get titles, he was out imperfect everyman hero. When he could not do that anymore, he became a fat lazy stench of a man.

    The only thing that changed was Wells' ability to get people out. Whether age or effectiveness or health. When he stopped being able to help us win, he became a troll, a boar. A loudmouth ass.
    Truth was, he was always those things, he was just those things with the ability to steamroll the opposition, especially in October. When the last ability went away, then perception changed.


    So I come here today to cross party lines. To say that if somehow the Sox had managed one more win, and that if the Yankees had held on to 7 run lead with 6 outs to go, and that if the Sox based on their momentum of slipping in held a 2 games to none lead over Texas in the ALDS, that just those 6-9 hours of hitting and fielding and throwing, a mere speck on the blink of human life based on a game which has little real life consequence, then we'd be talking about Francona's extension, Epstein's genius, and the Red Sox harsh and unusual personalities being a perfect fit to right what was nearly a sunk ship. How their carefree personalities and never say die attitude and no rules for them clubhouse were the perfect remedy for what was nearly a lost season. And how those qualities would now be a springboard toward an inevitable clash of the titans with Philly for all the marbles in two weeks, just how everyone had predicted in February.

    In short, these problems are problems because Jon Papelbon blew an unthinkable save, and because the Yankees did not give a damn while the Rays roared back from the dead. They are problems because of an unthinkable and historic 10 minutes of events that will probably never happen again in our lifetimes.
    They are problems because Mariano Rivera and David Robertson were held back awaiting Detroit.
    Hell how different is history if Girardi knew game 1 of our series was to be postponed until Sat, and that if in knowing that, he decided his big relievers needed some work. Would the Rangers be about to face the green monster instead of the Rays?

    And if so, would all these incredible problems be problems at all? Or just lovable traits on a never say die team who recovered from adversity..

    To answer that question, let's revisit 2004, the most revered Red Sox team of all time. Beards and personalities and beer and who gives a crap attitude, the idiots.. What if Posada throws out Dave Roberts?
    What if Rivera who never walks anyone retires Millar instead of walking him?

    I'd bet we'd all remember those idiots in a far different definition of that word...
    tl;dr


  23. #2423

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by aeromac76 View Post
    You know, I hate the Red Sox. It is tough for me to be objective about them.
    Most of you know full well, who have seen me post here for years, that I have made countless arguments against them, against their always sunny press clippings, against the predictions that they are the lovable underdogs become invincible vanquishers of all that is evil in NY with the Yankees.

    So perhaps I should sit here gloating.

    But I am going to do something that I never thought I could do, something I did not think was possible. I am going to staunchly defend them... (crap, did I really just say that???)

    The reason is this. I harken back to the days of David Wells. Out of shape beer swilling irresponsible oaf.
    But he was not always that. He was our lovable although imperfect, teddy bear. He was the guy who you always wanted on the mound in a big game, the never care attitude who could pitch in a pressure packed environment and give a big middle finger to the opponent when it counted.
    Then things changed. Did Wells become more fat? Did Wells become more irritable?
    Or did he just get a little older, get less effective, and get hurt in a way that forever probably cost us the 2003 World title?
    My point is when Wells was winning and helping us get titles, he was out imperfect everyman hero. When he could not do that anymore, he became a fat lazy stench of a man.

    The only thing that changed was Wells' ability to get people out. Whether age or effectiveness or health. When he stopped being able to help us win, he became a troll, a boar. A loudmouth ass.
    Truth was, he was always those things, he was just those things with the ability to steamroll the opposition, especially in October. When the last ability went away, then perception changed.


    So I come here today to cross party lines. To say that if somehow the Sox had managed one more win, and that if the Yankees had held on to 7 run lead with 6 outs to go, and that if the Sox based on their momentum of slipping in held a 2 games to none lead over Texas in the ALDS, that just those 6-9 hours of hitting and fielding and throwing, a mere speck on the blink of human life based on a game which has little real life consequence, then we'd be talking about Francona's extension, Epstein's genius, and the Red Sox harsh and unusual personalities being a perfect fit to right what was nearly a sunk ship. How their carefree personalities and never say die attitude and no rules for them clubhouse were the perfect remedy for what was nearly a lost season. And how those qualities would now be a springboard toward an inevitable clash of the titans with Philly for all the marbles in two weeks, just how everyone had predicted in February.

    In short, these problems are problems because Jon Papelbon blew an unthinkable save, and because the Yankees did not give a damn while the Rays roared back from the dead. They are problems because of an unthinkable and historic 10 minutes of events that will probably never happen again in our lifetimes.
    They are problems because Mariano Rivera and David Robertson were held back awaiting Detroit.
    Hell how different is history if Girardi knew game 1 of our series was to be postponed until Sat, and that if in knowing that, he decided his big relievers needed some work. Would the Rangers be about to face the green monster instead of the Rays?

    And if so, would all these incredible problems be problems at all? Or just lovable traits on a never say die team who recovered from adversity..

    To answer that question, let's revisit 2004, the most revered Red Sox team of all time. Beards and personalities and beer and who gives a crap attitude, the idiots.. What if Posada throws out Dave Roberts?
    What if Rivera who never walks anyone retires Millar instead of walking him?

    I'd bet we'd all remember those idiots in a far different definition of that word...
    Maybe you should save the admiration for another bunch of misfits

    If they had managed to sack up and stop their historic slide, they were still fated to lose in the first round

    The '04 team was actually able to "cowboy up"- the whole idiot pose was secondary. The team found itself with great pitching down the stretch and went on a tear.

    The problem with the current wasn't mere optics- there was a stink down deep. A team with a "carefree attitude" doesn't gack up a 9 game lead in September

    Those teams are actually polar opposites. The current team- more talented outside of pitching- fell apart and underperformed. As we're finding out now, the "looseness" in the clubhouse was actually conflicting ego driven self interest and brought the team down

    Even if Roberts gets thrown out, that team still gets remembered for the effort up to that point ( though aided by Torre's incompetence ). This team, even if they eke their way into the postseason will always be severe underacheivers- with Lackey and Crawford as the poster children.

    You're starting from a false premise. Save the respect for more well deserving subjects
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdvM0IB5Sbs

    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGGRESSIVE

  24. #2424

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    Maybe you should save the admiration for another bunch of misfits

    If they had managed to sack up and stop their historic slide, they were still fated to lose in the first round

    The '04 team was actually able to "cowboy up"- the whole idiot pose was secondary. The team found itself with great pitching down the stretch and went on a tear.

    The problem with the current wasn't mere optics- there was a stink down deep. A team with a "carefree attitude" doesn't gack up a 9 game lead in September

    Those teams are actually polar opposites. The current team- more talented outside of pitching- fell apart and underperformed. As we're finding out now, the "looseness" in the clubhouse was actually conflicting ego driven self interest and brought the team down

    Even if Roberts gets thrown out, that team still gets remembered for the effort up to that point ( though aided by Torre's incompetence ). This team, even if they eke their way into the postseason will always be severe underacheivers- with Lackey and Crawford as the poster children.

    You're starting from a false premise. Save the respect for more well deserving subjects
    Agree 100% especially the section in bold.
    I'm too smooth you'll never see me comin', I'm never in a hurry I'm just movin' fast...

  25. #2425

    Re: The Red Sox Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by aeromac76 View Post
    And if so, would all these incredible problems be problems at all? Or just lovable traits on a never say die team who recovered from adversity..
    The only "adversity" the 2011 Red Sox had to overcome was their own historically horrific attempt at playing the game of baseball for the last month of their season. All they had to do was show up at the ballpark and be less than mediocre during September in order to coast into a postseason birth, and they blew it in the most embarrassing way possible.
    This isn't any "Yankee fan bias" either. I don't think any reasonable Sox fan would attempt to paint the picture any differently.
    ~John

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