Derek Jeter: 3,000 Hits and Milestones

[YankeeFan1421]

But that's stupid. Ruth retired as the all-time HR king, so nobody was ahead of him on both the HR and H list. Cobb retired as the all-time Hit king, so nobody was ahead of him on both lists. Roger Connor retired as the all-time HR king, so nobody was ahead of him on both lists. Cap Anson retired as the all-time Hits king, so nobody was ahead of him on both lists.

SO....what was your point?

I don't think you'll understand it.

[Blazer]

But that's stupid. Ruth retired as the all-time HR king, so nobody was ahead of him on both the HR and H list. Cobb retired as the all-time Hit king, so nobody was ahead of him on both lists. Roger Connor retired as the all-time HR king, so nobody was ahead of him on both lists. Cap Anson retired as the all-time Hits king, so nobody was ahead of him on both lists.

SO....what was your point?

So many moons ago in regards to the players you mentioned.

If you look at modern day players and how they rank against latter players, it's pretty mediocre in terms of OPS+.

IMO that's because every player now is 100% committed to baseball 100% of the time. In the pre-MLBPA era most players had to take offseason jobs to support their families. The stars made enough money so they could focus on the game 100% of the time, but the other 23+ players on the roster didn't. Guess what, huge disparity between star and avg player in terms of OPS and thus OPS+.

[Nome]

So many moons ago in regards to the players you mentioned.

If you look at modern day players and how they rank against latter players, it's pretty mediocre in terms of OPS+.

IMO that's because every player now is 100% committed to baseball 100% of the time. In the pre-MLBPA era most players had to take offseason jobs to support their families. The stars made enough money so they could focus on the game 100% of the time, but the other 23+ players on the roster didn't. Guess what, huge disparity between star and avg player in terms of OPS and thus OPS+.

Could part of the reason be that today's game favors offense in that many rules are against pitchers? Mound height, use of pads and body armor, umpires disallowing high inside pitches, etc, not to mention PEDS. Yes they are still being used.

You can talk about players not having to work off season jobs and possibly commiting themselves to year round conditioning programs, but you have to consider that today's game has a longer season (162 vs 154 regular season games plus extended postseason and Spring training games. Travelling to the West coast through different time zones and sometimes to Japan at the start of the season. There are many differences between today's game and the game of yesteryear. They simply cannot be compared. So why not let's leave it at that.

Comparisons are almost meaningless

Andy

[Big_E]

I don't think you'll understand it.

Understand what? That you blurted out something ridiculous and were shown you were wrong?

Jeter and Aaron are not (or will not be) the only people in MLB history to retire without the same people ahead of them on both the HR and Hit list.

Bonds did. Rose did. Ruth did. Cobb did. Roger Connor did. Cap Anson did. Adding to the list: Stan Musial did. (2nd in hits to Cobb when he retired). Tris Speaker was 2nd to Cobb in hits when they retired in the same season. They both finished with 117 career HR, so Speaker did it, too. I think maybe Honus Wagner did it as well.

So like I said, you blurted something out with only cursory "research" (missing Bonds and Rose???) so show me what I "don't understand".

[sweet_lou_14]

IMO that's because every player now is 100% committed to baseball 100% of the time. In the pre-MLBPA era most players had to take offseason jobs to support their families. The stars made enough money so they could focus on the game 100% of the time, but the other 23+ players on the roster didn't. Guess what, huge disparity between star and avg player in terms of OPS and thus OPS+.

I'm not sure I've ever heard it explained in quite this way, but what you say here makes a lot of sense.

Although, if players like Yogi Berra were supplementing their income with offseason jobs and businesses, it's pretty clear that none of these old-time players were really focused 100%. Even though Babe Ruth made enough money, he certainly wasn't working with a personal trainer in the winter. I can only imagine what kind of shape he was in when he walked into Spring Training.

[RenoHightower]

Could part of the reason be that today's game favors offense in that many rules are against pitchers? Mound height, use of pads and body armor, umpires disallowing high inside pitches, etc, not to mention PEDS. Yes they are still being used.

You can talk about players not having to work off season jobs and possibly commiting themselves to year round conditioning programs, but you have to consider that today's game has a longer season (162 vs 154 regular season games plus extended postseason and Spring training games. Travelling to the West coast through different time zones and sometimes to Japan at the start of the season. There are many differences between today's game and the game of yesteryear. They simply cannot be compared. So why not let's leave it at that.

Comparisons are almost meaningless

Andy

Because that's a cop-out, and we can do better. We know, statistically, that the disparity between the best players and the worst players is far less than it was prior to integration. That's why the best players in the league used to put up 170-180 OPS+ all the time back then, and it's so rare now. A 150 OPS+ means more now than it did in 1950. If we measure player performance in terms of standard deviation from the mean, it would be a much better representation.

[-tz]

Interesting article on Jeter and his chances of catching Rose ... with comments from Rose:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/sp...ts-record.html

[JDPNYY]

Interesting article on Jeter and his chances of catching Rose ... with comments from Rose:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/sp...ts-record.html

Is Pete's money on Jeter falling short?

[Ram Man]

Is Pete's money on Jeter falling short?

With all of Rose's Las Vegas connections, I'd expect Jeter to end up on the disabled list with two broken kneecaps if he gets anywhere close.

[Nome]

I'm not sure I've ever heard it explained in quite this way, but what you say here makes a lot of sense.

Although, if players like Yogi Berra were supplementing their income with offseason jobs and businesses, it's pretty clear that none of these old-time players were really focused 100%. Even though Babe Ruth made enough money, he certainly wasn't working with a personal trainer in the winter. I can only imagine what kind of shape he was in when he walked into Spring Training.

I am not criticizing Jeter, but have you seen him on the many commercials he does for Ford. Players today get, I believe, far more endorsement opportunities than the old timers did

Andy

[Nome]

Because that's a cop-out, and we can do better. We know, statistically, that the disparity between the best players and the worst players is far less than it was prior to integration. That's why the best players in the league used to put up 170-180 OPS+ all the time back then, and it's so rare now. A 150 OPS+ means more now than it did in 1950. If we measure player performance in terms of standard deviation from the mean, it would be a much better representation.

Again it's a totally different game today The equipment is different, the umpires call the game differently, there is more money involved for the players and the team, thus more pressure, the media is more critical. The game is radically different

Andy

[JDPNYY]

I hope all of you that were upset on these Boards when Jeter was selected in the 1992 draft have come to your senses.

[Yankees1962]

I hope all of you that were upset on these Boards when Jeter was selected in the 1992 draft have come to your senses.

Could you imagine what would've been said on this board back in 92 and 93, when Jeter was in low A and making 21 errors in 92 than 56 more in 93? And that's even considering he barely hit over the Mendoza line in 92.

[RenoHightower]

Again it's a totally different game today The equipment is different, the umpires call the game differently, there is more money involved for the players and the team, thus more pressure, the media is more critical. The game is radically different

Andy

Yes, it's different. One of the main differences is that it is currently being played by dramatically better athletes who know exponentially more about training, nutrition, and talent development. The level of competition is worlds higher that it used to be. You can decide to be unaware of this and just be baffled by the myriad of differences between MLB in 2012 vs MLB in 1942; I'm not going to.

[The Comic Book Guy]

I'm not even sure if this is completely (or even tangentially) related to the subject currently under discussion, but I tend to subscribe to the theory that the best players, the generational-types, would be great players in any era, though players from the past would see their numbers decline due to the rest of the field catching up.

That is to say, I suspect Ruth would put up the kind of numbers Giambi and Todd Helton were posting in the early 00s (but not hitting in the .370s with 50-60 homers), that Cobb would still be winning batting titles (though probably not sniffing .400), and I'm almost positive Ted Williams would be something like a lefty Pujols with pre-roid Bonds' plate discipline, though I doubt he'd be able to consistently maintain a 3-1 BB/K ratio.

EDIT: Back to Jeter, I remember in some of the offseason discussions about possibly signing Damon, there was some concern that his plate discipline could suffer because he'd be pressing to get to 3000 hits. Anyone think that the whole climbing up the hits list thing is a factor in Jeter's career-low walk rate? He's never seemed concerned with #s, but it seems like a possibly. Could also be that he realizes his strength at this point is crushing fastballs, and will swing at one as long as it's near the zone. FWIW, his P/PA (3.68) is fairly close to his career averages.

[RenoHightower]

Lower walk rate can also be a factor of decreased bat speed. If he's compensating by starting his swing earlier, he's also going to be swinging at more pitches.

[The Comic Book Guy]

Lower walk rate can also be a factor of decreased bat speed. If he's compensating by starting his swing earlier, he's also going to be swinging at more pitches.

Possible, but fangraphs has him hitting fastballs really well this year, which usually doesn't suggest a slower bat. It does seem like in the last couple of years his stance has been a bit further from the plate (maybe evidenced by his declining HBP totals?), so maybe he's backed a bit off the plate to help him get to fastballs in, which would lend credence to your theory.

[sweet_lou_14]

Interesting article on Jeter and his chances of catching Rose ... with comments from Rose:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/sp...ts-record.html

Great article, thanks for posting.

[Battingly]

QUESTION

How many hits per game will Jeter need the rest of this season to pass Collins & Molitor, IOW's to reach 3,320

Just trying to see if they are within reach this year?

[philleotardo]

He would essentially need 60 hits in 40 games.

[Big_E]

He would essentially need 60 hits in 40 games.

64 hits in 40 games. Which seems reasonable except when you realize that over 162 games that would be 259 hits.

[Battingly]

64 hits in 40 games. Which seems reasonable except when you realize that over 162 games that would be 259 hits.

Would that be his career high for a single season?

If so that would be pretty amazing, career high at 38

[Ram Man]

Would that be his career high for a single season?

If he gets to 259, that would be the second highest single season total in major league history (behind Ichiro's 264 in 2004). I don't think he's going to make that.

If he gets 64 more this season, that would give him 232 which would be a career high breaking his record of 219 set in 1999. I don't think he'll get that either.

[Battingly]

If he gets 64 more this season, that would give him 232 which would be a career high breaking his record of 219 set in 1999. I don't think he'll get that either.

Oh okay, I misread that prior post, so he has to get to 228 to pass Collins and 232 to pass Molitor.

Its gonna be tough, but its possible.

That aside, there is a pretty good chance he will pass his career high of 219 at 38 years old, and that is amazing.

[Big_E]

He is on pace for 173 more AB, 64 hits would be a .370 BA the rest of the way.

He is hitting .372 in August, but would need to keep that up for the next 6 weeks.