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  1. #11851

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post
    Whoa, i don't know what's going on with you today, but I meant nothing mean by anything I posted. I'm genuinely trying to understand what you were posting.

    What I posted should have been clear without spelling it out: That we cannot point to the Yank's position in the standings as an excuse for the their poor drafting and subsequent piss-poor player development. Not when there are other teams that perennially finish at or near the top, but have success. It goes beyond the Sox, Cards and this year's WS, something I only mentioned because they are two of the teams that do it better than the Yanks, and just happen to be playing in the big show. Sort of a reminder of how bad we are in this department. Just look at the Braves as another good example.

    But, in response, you list 13-14 players on the Sox roster that they didn't develop as if that was relevant. Then, as a follow-up, you list only Pedroia, Lester and Buchholz as their only success, which is just plain disingenuous. Then, for whatever reason, you volunteer that the Sox have garbage on their roster. Finally, you could have spared us the "Our friend, ArodEra" crap.


  2. #11852

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Interesting article by Madden that I just read. Before anybody responds with the inevitable Madden-bashing, so what if it was written by him? It would hold true regardless of who wrote it.

    Bombers should look to Boston and St. Louis to figure out how to better find and develop homegrown talent.
    Beginning Monday, the Yankee owners will be conducting their organization meetings at Yankee Stadium, at which time the prime topic of discussion is expected to be the Yankee player development and scouting departments and the abysmal performance of both, which led to the embarrassing season just concluded.

    GM Brian Cashman, VP of minor league operations Mark Newman and scouting director Damon Oppenheimer all have a lot of explaining to do. They can start with all those No. 1 draft picks (Dante Bichette Jr., Cito Culver, Eric Duncan, John-Ford Griffin, Jon S. Skaggs, David Parrish, David Walling, Andrew Brackman & Co.) who have gone bust over the years. Then they can move onto the absence of any impact position players or frontline pitchers out of the draft since the previous administration produced Derek Jeter and Andy Pettitte.
    Where is our Xander Bogaerts? In 2010, we drafted this high school shortstop from Rochester, N.Y., Culver, with our No. 1 pick — 32nd overall — and now he’s not even listed among our top 20 prospects. Can anyone explain what the thinking behind that was? Who was the scout who made that recommendation
    We agree the 2006 draft — the one Brian here put the emphasis on pitching and took seven pitchers with our first 10 picks — was one of our better ones, even if we did screw up Joba Chamberlain, who we took at No. 1, and traded away three pitchers in the majors who we took after him — Ian Kennedy, Zach McAllister and Mark Melancon. No question, David Robertson was a good find in the 17th round. But again, with the dearth of position prospects we have now, what did our reports have on Jon Jay, whom the Cardinals took in the second round, Shane Robinson, whom they took in the fifth round or Allen Craig, who may be their best player, whom they got in the eighth round? Again we realize the difficulty in projecting players, and that you have to get lucky, too. But how are the Cardinals THAT lucky and we’re so unlucky? How come all these pitchers they’ve taken in the draft — Kelly, Rosenthal, Shelby Miller, Lance Lynn, Michael Wacha, Kevin Siegrist — are all up here performing at a top level while all of our drafted pitchers aren’t? And how come their pitchers don’t have the command problems almost all of ours do?
    In 2007, we took Brackman, that 6-11 pitcher out of North Carolina State, with the 30th overall pick, paid him an over-slot $3.35 million signing bonus even though we knew he was going to need Tommy John surgery. Again, we’re just curious: What were our scouting reports on Todd Frazier, the infielder from Rutgers taken by the Reds with the 34th pick, or Travis d’Arnaud, the catcher the Phillies took at No. 37 who is now the Mets’ top prospect? Or Josh Donaldson, the A’s third baseman who will also get some MVP consideration this year, whom the Cubs took at No. 48
    And can you tell us, who was the scout who recommended we take that high school shortstop, C.J. Henry, with our No. 17 pick in 2005? Is he still working for us? Do you have our scouting reports on Jacoby Ellsbury, whom the Red Sox took at 23, or Clay Buchholz, whom they took at 42? Or Jed Lowrie, whom they took at 45 — college guys, all of them, who should have had a much clearer track record, no? We rated Henry better than ALL of them?
    In 2009, we took Slade Heathcott, a high school outfielder with a troubled family history, with our No. 1 pick (29the overall), and J.R. Murphy with our No. 2 (76). Heathcott’s been constantly hurt while Murphy looks like he may develop into a decent major league catcher. We’re just wondering: What were our reports on Joe Kelly, the Cardinals’ No. 3 starter in the postseason whom they took in the third round (98)? Or Matt Carpenter, their second baseman who’ll probably get a lot of MVP votes this year, whom they took at 399? Or Trevor Rosenthal, their new closer who throws 100 mph, whom they took at 639? Or Matt Adams, that big lefty hitting first baseman of theirs, whom they took at 699? We realize the draft is a crapshoot and everyone else passed on those guys in the early rounds, but what were our reports on them? We did see them, didn’t we?


  3. #11853
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    Interesting article by Madden that I just read. Before anybody responds with the inevitable Madden-bashing, so what if it was written by him? It would hold true regardless of who wrote it.
    It is an interesting article. Here's the link you forgot:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.1490544

  4. #11854

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by -tz View Post
    It is an interesting article. Here's the link you forgot:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.1490544
    Is it me, but has anybody defended the Yankees lack of draft success here? They have to be better than what they've done for last 15 years or so. Madden has been dogging them out on this fact for many years now.
    Okay Hal and Brian, I might be a sucker, but you got 3 more years to fix it!

  5. #11855
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by -tz View Post
    It is an interesting article. Here's the link you forgot:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.1490544
    Great read. The main theme in that article is the lack of accountability. Again though, it all starts at the top. Until ownership realizes Cashman is the underlying issue, expect more of the same.

  6. #11856
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    Interesting article by Madden that I just read. Before anybody responds with the inevitable Madden-bashing, so what if it was written by him? It would hold true regardless of who wrote it.
    See, I think the point is a good one, but the article still sucks. He's treating the MLB draft like it's the NFL draft, he's comparing Boegarts (signed as an IFA) to Culver (draft pick), bringing up guys who were drafted more than a decade ago, etc, etc.

    I'm certainly not going to deny the Yankees failures in developing their own talent, but I don't think he does a good job of analysis here at all. In fact, if he was an actual reporter, he might have spoken to some people with the Yankees to understand how they viewed players instead of just asking questions in his column.
    "Welcome to NYYFans, the place where Yankees fans come together to complain about the manner in which our team is winning games" -- Mr. Coffee

  7. #11857

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    See, I think the point is a good one, but the article still sucks. He's treating the MLB draft like it's the NFL draft, he's comparing Boegarts (signed as an IFA) to Culver (draft pick), bringing up guys who were drafted more than a decade ago, etc, etc.

    I'm certainly not going to deny the Yankees failures in developing their own talent, but I don't think he does a good job of analysis here at all. In fact, if he was an actual reporter, he might have spoken to some people with the Yankees to understand how they viewed players instead of just asking questions in his column.
    Madden has been lazy with this writing for years. Like you said, there is no disputing the Yankees shortcomings in the draft, but his lack of current analysis speaks volumes about his current journalism skills.
    Okay Hal and Brian, I might be a sucker, but you got 3 more years to fix it!

  8. #11858

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    What I posted should have been clear without spelling it out: That we cannot point to the Yank's position in the standings as an excuse for the their poor drafting and subsequent piss-poor player development. Not when there are other teams that perennially finish at or near the top, but have success. It goes beyond the Sox, Cards and this year's WS, something I only mentioned because they are two of the teams that do it better than the Yanks, and just happen to be playing in the big show. Sort of a reminder of how bad we are in this department. Just look at the Braves as another good example.

    But, in response, you list 13-14 players on the Sox roster that they didn't develop as if that was relevant. Then, as a follow-up, you list only Pedroia, Lester and Buchholz as their only success, which is just plain disingenuous. Then, for whatever reason, you volunteer that the Sox have garbage on their roster. Finally, you could have spared us the "Our friend, ArodEra" crap.

    I'm saying you really can't give the Sox much credit for being in the WS with their "homegrown" talent. They had 3-5 players on their roster that were actually decent that were also homegrown. The rest were FA signings or trades. Meanwhile, the Yankees had just as many impact players that were homegrown. Robertson (one of the best relievers in baseball over the last 3 years), Rivera, Pettitte, Nova, Gardner and Cano. That's why I listed out the Red Sox players that were FA. People are confused as to what a homegrown team is, and the Red Sox aren't one.

    edit: And I'm not trying to diminish your point; the Cardinals and Braves are excellent examples of good finishes and strong drafts. I just don't think it's fair to lump Boston into that category.
    Thank you for making me calm today, Brett Gardner

  9. #11859
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    [QUOTE=snapple;7798147]I'm saying you really can't give the Sox much credit for being in the WS with their "homegrown" talent. QUOTE]

    That is nonsense.

    Buchholtz and Lester comprise 40% of the rotation, and they are #1, and #2. Doubront at #5 made 27 starts for this years team.

    Ellsbury, Pedroia- two their superstars. Nava - Second best hitter on the team this year, plays multiple positions (played all three OF position, 1B and DH) Middlebrooks played half the season at 3B.

    Then you have guys like Boegarts and Workman - they do not get credit for getting Sox there, but they are having huge impact in playoffs.

    I would kill for this many players - SEVEN referenced above. That is a ton.

    We made our monster run with four. THAT is a solid amount. Seven is fantastic. Very envious.....
    Goin for 2<strike>7</strike>8!

  10. #11860

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    [QUOTE=goin for 27;7798177]
    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post
    I'm saying you really can't give the Sox much credit for being in the WS with their "homegrown" talent. QUOTE]

    That is nonsense.

    Buchholtz and Lester comprise 40% of the rotation, and they are #1, and #2. Doubront at #5 made 27 starts for this years team.

    Ellsbury, Pedroia- two their superstars. Nava - Second best hitter on the team this year, plays multiple positions (played all three OF position, 1B and DH) Middlebrooks played half the season at 3B.

    Then you have guys like Boegarts and Workman - they do not get credit for getting Sox there, but they are having huge impact in playoffs.

    I would kill for this many players - SEVEN referenced above. That is a ton.

    We made our monster run with four. THAT is a solid amount. Seven is fantastic. Very envious.....
    Ellsbury had one year where is was really good. He had a 114 OPS+ this year, which isn't bad, but it's not like he was teh best@@@@. Middlebrooks and Boegarts had an OPS+ of 88. Workman had an ERA near 5 in 41 innings.

    I'm not knocking them for the contributions of Pedroia, Lester and Buccholz. Most of their offensive production came from free agent signings (of which I count Ortiz). I can concede Ellsbury, but the Red Sox really have no more homegrown players than the Yankees.
    Thank you for making me calm today, Brett Gardner

  11. #11861

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post
    I'm saying you really can't give the Sox much credit for being in the WS with their "homegrown" talent. They had 3-5 players on their roster that were actually decent that were also homegrown. The rest were FA signings or trades. Meanwhile, the Yankees had just as many impact players that were homegrown. Robertson (one of the best relievers in baseball over the last 3 years), Rivera, Pettitte, Nova, Gardner and Cano. That's why I listed out the Red Sox players that were FA. People are confused as to what a homegrown team is, and the Red Sox aren't one.

    edit: And I'm not trying to diminish your point; the Cardinals and Braves are excellent examples of good finishes and strong drafts. I just don't think it's fair to lump Boston into that category.
    what's of relevance here is the homegrown talent developed under the cashman regime, not holdovers gifted to him. Since cashman's been here the best he has to show as far as player development is gardner, nova, and robertson and that's shameful considering the wealth of resources he has at his disposal.

    No defense at all for this

  12. #11862
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    [QUOTE=snapple;7798179]
    Quote Originally Posted by goin for 27 View Post

    Ellsbury had one year where is was really good. He had a 114 OPS+ this year, which isn't bad, but it's not like he was teh best@@@@. Middlebrooks and Boegarts had an OPS+ of 88. Workman had an ERA near 5 in 41 innings.

    I'm not knocking them for the contributions of Pedroia, Lester and Buccholz. Most of their offensive production came from free agent signings (of which I count Ortiz). I can concede Ellsbury, but the Red Sox really have no more homegrown players than the Yankees.
    But the Red Sox, with approximately 40% of their 25 man roster being homegrown talent, are going to the World Series. They may or may not have more homegrown players on the ML roster than the Yankees, but they seem to be getting much better quality and mileage out of their farm system than we are.
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  13. #11863

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    [QUOTE=goin for 27;7798177]
    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post
    I'm saying you really can't give the Sox much credit for being in the WS with their "homegrown" talent. QUOTE]

    That is nonsense.

    Buchholtz and Lester comprise 40% of the rotation, and they are #1, and #2. Doubront at #5 made 27 starts for this years team.

    Ellsbury, Pedroia- two their superstars. Nava - Second best hitter on the team this year, plays multiple positions (played all three OF position, 1B and DH) Middlebrooks played half the season at 3B.

    Then you have guys like Boegarts and Workman - they do not get credit for getting Sox there, but they are having huge impact in playoffs.

    I would kill for this many players - SEVEN referenced above. That is a ton.

    We made our monster run with four. THAT is a solid amount. Seven is fantastic. Very envious.....
    forgetting bernie?

    it wasn't just that we had 5 core guys... it is that arguably they are all of the elite variety. i'm sure there were more than the 5 core guys that anchored the dynasty era.

  14. #11864
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post

    Ellsbury had one year where is was really good. He had a 114 OPS+ this year, which isn't bad, but it's not like he was teh best@@@@. Middlebrooks and Boegarts had an OPS+ of 88. Workman had an ERA near 5 in 41 innings.

    I'm not knocking them for the contributions of Pedroia, Lester and Buccholz. Most of their offensive production came from free agent signings (of which I count Ortiz). I can concede Ellsbury, but the Red Sox really have no more homegrown players than the Yankees.
    Holy smokes, really? Ellsbury was the best Red Sox everyday player this year. His WAR was 5.8 for goodness sakes. Concede Ellsbury? He had the same WAR as Robbie for goodness sakes. One year where he was really good? No, one year where he was MVP good.

    What do you think Ellsbury is going to get as a FA for his "one good year"?

    With that, I will let you just go on believing, I can't get past the actual post, not worth debating.
    Goin for 2<strike>7</strike>8!

  15. #11865

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    they can trade for players by spending prospects you know. yankees traded for quite ea number of guys, some of whom did not pan out. so did sox.
    always reasonable

  16. #11866
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post

    Ellsbury had one year where is was really good. He had a 114 OPS+ this year, which isn't bad, but it's not like he was teh best@@@@. Middlebrooks and Boegarts had an OPS+ of 88. Workman had an ERA near 5 in 41 innings.

    I'm not knocking them for the contributions of Pedroia, Lester and Buccholz. Most of their offensive production came from free agent signings (of which I count Ortiz). I can concede Ellsbury, but the Red Sox really have no more homegrown players than the Yankees.
    Tex had an OPS+ of 115 in 2012, yet you want to have his babies.

  17. #11867

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by yanksftw View Post
    what's of relevance here is the homegrown talent developed under the cashman regime, not holdovers gifted to him. Since cashman's been here the best he has to show as far as player development is gardner, nova, and robertson and that's shameful considering the wealth of resources he has at his disposal.

    No defense at all for this
    Yea it's kinda bad when we have to go back to guys that came up 17 yrs ago and point to very good development. That doesn't mean they don'y count or their value can be taken for granted but it shows everyone how long it has been.

  18. #11868

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    This thread is awesome.

    I'm amazed that there are still people defending the organizational track record.

  19. #11869

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by justtxyank View Post
    This thread is awesome.

    I'm amazed that there are still people defending the organizational track record.
    What people are defending the organizational record?
    Okay Hal and Brian, I might be a sucker, but you got 3 more years to fix it!

  20. #11870
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    People can keep preaching about wanting to rebuild, but that's a big gamble considering how poor they've done actually drafting talent. Then there's the whole 3-5 year wait for these guys to even think about making an impact in the majors.

  21. #11871
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    It's funny - I read the other day that Oppenheimer's job may be safe due to the fact his draft this year was rated #3 by BA. All he had to do was draft according to BA's top 100 list and his job would have been safe, as opposed to some of his disaster reach picks over the last half decade or whatever.

  22. #11872
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    People can keep preaching about wanting to rebuild, but that's a big gamble considering how poor they've done actually drafting talent. Then there's the whole 3-5 year wait for these guys to even think about making an impact in the majors.
    Which is why they need to change the people doing the scouting and drafting as well as the player development.

  23. #11873

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    The Steinbrenner's are just ill-prepared to do what really should be done - fire Cashman and do a complete overhaul of the entire system, including the majors, farm and player development. Or, at least take a less drastic approach by firing Cashman and allow the new, hopefully more competent guy, to replace some key organizational personnel over time. You have to start somewhere. Scapegoat-like firing of lower level employees isn't the answer for this team.

    It's not rocket science; all you have to do is take one look at the Yankee roster, how/why it got to this point, and the dearth of any immediate help or relief coming from the farm to see that Cashman has failed to deliver what he promised.


  24. #11874
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    The Steinbrenner's are just ill-prepared to do what really should be done - fire Cashman and do a complete overhaul of the entire system, including the majors, farm and player development. Or, at least take a less drastic approach by firing Cashman and allow the new, hopefully more competent guy, to replace some key organizational personnel over time. You have to start somewhere. Scapegoat-like firing of lower level employees isn't the answer for this team.

    All you have to do is take one look at the Yankee roster, how/why it got to this point, and the dearth of any immediate help or relief coming from the farm to see that Cashman has failed to deliver what he promised.
    It would be fascinating to sit in on their meetings. I'm not defending Cashman, but ownership does hold a lot of responsibility for the current roster as well. Changing strategic direction midstream -- e.g., signing guys to expensive, long-term deals and then deciding you want to get under the luxury tax -- is one of the drivers for things like signing Wells so that you can have him cost $0 against the luxury tax next year.

    I don't know why they don't just throw a ton of money at some guys from other organizations to run the farm and player development. I would guess that would be a relatively cheap investment that would pay off a ton long term, and possibly allow them to go under the luxury tax number with a competitive team.
    "Welcome to NYYFans, the place where Yankees fans come together to complain about the manner in which our team is winning games" -- Mr. Coffee

  25. #11875
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    It's funny - I read the other day that Oppenheimer's job may be safe due to the fact his draft this year was rated #3 by BA. All he had to do was draft according to BA's top 100 list and his job would have been safe, as opposed to some of his disaster reach picks over the last half decade or whatever.
    honestly, i don't know why he would even be on the hot seat... granted, he is the one who makes the pick at the end of the day, but he has a whole team of scouts that are sent out throughout the country to evaluate players and report back to him... if anything, their asses should be on the line (which i'm sure they are)

    plus, we don't know how much money has actually been allotted to the scouting department for the drafts, so a lot of these crappy 1st round reach selections might simply be byproducts of imposed salary limitations... who knows?

    i'm pretty sure though that if opp is fired, another team will hire him as a GM or assistant GM
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