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  1. #11726

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    This is really the bottom line.
    Joey 4 rings ( a poor manager ) approves that message
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdvM0IB5Sbs

    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGGRESSIVE

  2. #11727

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    YES is broadcasting Cashman's end-of-the-season press conference at noon today. I might be daff, but that tells me, he's not going anywhere.
    Fire Cashman, but Hal Steinbrenner is the root of Yankee woes.

  3. #11728

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Really tough to have confidence in Cashman or anyone in this front office and ownership these days. It's time to make changes with the scouting department as well. This farm system, with all the injuries at the major league level this year, was exposed and people should be held accountable

  4. #11729
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    This is really the bottom line.
    "He didn't really win them, though. He inherited a roster from Gene Michael."

  5. #11730

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    "He didn't really win them, though. He inherited a roster from Gene Michael."
    Wasn't Cashman, the assistant GM under Michael? If we're going to blame Cashman for the failures of his staff in developing players then shouldn't Cashman get credit for being part of Michael's staff back then?

    I'm all for wanting to change GMs, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be fair in evaluating Cashman's contributions to the Yankee organization over the years.
    Fire Cashman, but Hal Steinbrenner is the root of Yankee woes.

  6. #11731

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    Wasn't Cashman, the assistant GM under Michael? If we're going to blame Cashman for the failures of his staff in developing players then shouldn't Cashman get credit for being part of Michael's staff back then?

    I'm all for wanting to change GMs, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be fair in evaluating Cashman's contributions to the Yankee organization over the years.
    Our friend was being sarcastic.
    Thank you for making me calm today, Brett Gardner

  7. #11732
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Screw the Rays, I'm pretty damn envious of the Cardinals and their organization. Elite farm system, shrewd FA signings (Beltran/Holliday/Berkman), letting Pujols walk, rotation primarily compromised of homegrown talent. The Yankees are probably good at one of those things.

  8. #11733
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    Screw the Rays, I'm pretty damn envious of the Cardinals and their organization. Elite farm system, shrewd FA signings (Beltran/Holliday/Berkman), letting Pujols walk, rotation primarily compromised of homegrown talent. The Yankees are probably good at one of those things.
    Maybe it's me but I can't pinpoint which one of those they are good at?
    [SIZE=3]"Scooter - RIP and thank you for being part of my childhood"[/SIZE]

  9. #11734
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    FA signings. Probably not "shrewd" but they haven't exactly fallen on their face (I wasn't counting ARod as he was an odd exception). Sabathia/Giambi/Moose/Swisher/Damon/Matsui/Kuroda/Soriano/etc. all worked out.

  10. #11735

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    He's also been above average on trades and plugging holes during the season. Cashman's biggest weakness may not be his weakness at all- he has gotten almost no help from his farm system to aid in trades or development into ML players. So he's been forced to fill expensive holes with expensive options. Eventually that is going to topple.

    I think he's been an above average GM for a long time, with periods of excellence and fewer periods of poor management.

    The Newman/Oppenheimer faction has failed miserably for a long time. The concerning thing is that you can't really look at their decisions as busts- they so often went outside convential scouting wisdom and made crazy selections....none of whom have worked out in the slightest.

  11. #11736

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by gold23 View Post
    He's also been above average on trades and plugging holes during the season. Cashman's biggest weakness may not be his weakness at all- he has gotten almost no help from his farm system to aid in trades or development into ML players. So he's been forced to fill expensive holes with expensive options. Eventually that is going to topple.

    I think he's been an above average GM for a long time, with periods of excellence and fewer periods of poor management.

    The Newman/Oppenheimer faction has failed miserably for a long time. The concerning thing is that you can't really look at their decisions as busts- they so often went outside convential scouting wisdom and made crazy selections....none of whom have worked out in the slightest.
    It's still Cashman's responsibility to clean it up and get that side of the business working better. Evidently, he's going to get the first crack in rebuilding this organization from the Core Four teams. I think some changes are needed within the Yankee organization to get that done.
    Fire Cashman, but Hal Steinbrenner is the root of Yankee woes.

  12. #11737

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    The whole "Core Four" with 4 stars coming up at the same time was a freakish lottery ticket luck thing. None, except Jeter, was projected to be anything close to what they eventually became.

    It's just he nature of baseball prospects. Most prospects are low probability events with maybe 5 a year that has even 50% chance to stick at MLB, in any capacity, and maybe 1 or 2 a year that's basically guaranteed to become MLB contributors.

    Everyone else is basically a crap shoot. No, we can't just buy all the prospects and IFAs available. The number of MiLB roster spots are limited and we're not allowed to own multiple AAA teams.

    Every study I've seen suggests the Yankees have done fairly well with getting production out of the farm. Great? Top 5? Top 10? probably not. But we're fairly consistently in the 5~15 range in terms of both farm rankings and homegrown production at MLB level. That's pretty amazing since we haven't drafted top 5 (where the "can't miss" are) since Derek Jeter in 1992.

  13. #11738
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    The whole "Core Four" with 4 stars coming up at the same time was a freakish lottery ticket luck thing. None, except Jeter, was projected to be anything close to what they eventually became.

    It's just he nature of baseball prospects. Most prospects are low probability events with maybe 5 a year that has even 50% chance to stick at MLB, in any capacity, and maybe 1 or 2 a year that's basically guaranteed to become MLB contributors.

    Everyone else is basically a crap shoot. No, we can't just buy all the prospects and IFAs available. The number of MiLB roster spots are limited and we're not allowed to own multiple AAA teams.

    Every study I've seen suggests the Yankees have done fairly well with getting production out of the farm. Great? Top 5? Top 10? probably not. But we're fairly consistently in the 5~15 range in terms of both farm rankings and homegrown production at MLB level. That's pretty amazing since we haven't drafted top 5 (where the "can't miss" are) since Derek Jeter in 1992.
    Awesome.

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  14. #11739

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by gold23 View Post
    He's also been above average on trades and plugging holes during the season. Cashman's biggest weakness may not be his weakness at all- he has gotten almost no help from his farm system to aid in trades or development into ML players. So he's been forced to fill expensive holes with expensive options. Eventually that is going to topple.

    I think he's been an above average GM for a long time, with periods of excellence and fewer periods of poor management.

    The Newman/Oppenheimer faction has failed miserably for a long time. The concerning thing is that you can't really look at their decisions as busts- they so often went outside convential scouting wisdom and made crazy selections....none of whom have worked out in the slightest.

    And as their boss with a publicized plan to improve the farm system, why does he let that continue? He has the power to fire and hire and hasn't used it except at the periphery.

    I'd love the see the studies you mentioned touting the Yanks farm productivity - really, not being snarky -as it seems counter to my perceptions. The fact that they've failed to develop a top notch pitcher is glaring when other teams have had success apart from top 5 picks - turning lower round picks into quality starters
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdvM0IB5Sbs

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  15. #11740
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    The whole "Core Four" with 4 stars coming up at the same time was a freakish lottery ticket luck thing. None, except Jeter, was projected to be anything close to what they eventually became.

    It's just he nature of baseball prospects. Most prospects are low probability events with maybe 5 a year that has even 50% chance to stick at MLB, in any capacity, and maybe 1 or 2 a year that's basically guaranteed to become MLB contributors.

    Everyone else is basically a crap shoot. No, we can't just buy all the prospects and IFAs available. The number of MiLB roster spots are limited and we're not allowed to own multiple AAA teams.

    Every study I've seen suggests the Yankees have done fairly well with getting production out of the farm. Great? Top 5? Top 10? probably not. But we're fairly consistently in the 5~15 range in terms of both farm rankings and homegrown production at MLB level. That's pretty amazing since we haven't drafted top 5 (where the "can't miss" are) since Derek Jeter in 1992.
    What players of significance has the Yankee system developed in the past 5 years?
    Ivan Nova and Austin Jackson are a very small yield.

    On a side note, it's amazing how little love Bernie gets compared to the "Core Four" - it should actually be "Core Five" IMO.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  16. #11741
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    What players of significance has the Yankee system developed in the past 5 years?
    Ivan Nova and Austin Jackson are a very small yield.

    On a side note, it's amazing how little love Bernie gets compared to the "Core Four" - it should actually be "Core Five" IMO.
    Off the top of my head......DRob, Melancon, McCallister, Quintana, Montero.

    I guess it depends on your definition of significance, but those are productive MLers I mentioned.
    Fistpumping like a champion.

  17. #11742

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by just-blaze View Post
    Off the top of my head......DRob, Melancon, McCallister, Quintana, Montero.

    I guess it depends on your definition of significance, but those are productive MLers I mentioned.
    I would call those players significant, but I would dispute the Yankees' role in the development of Z-Mac, Melancon and Quintana
    Don't tease me, you know what I do for a living.

  18. #11743
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by philleotardo View Post
    I would call those players significant, but I would dispute the Yankees' role in the development of Z-Mac, Melancon and Quintana
    Why? I don't think they were finished products before hitting the majors, but all of them pitched a significant portion of their careers in our system.

    Kontos is another one.
    Fistpumping like a champion.

  19. #11744

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/yankees...090939543.html

    That article is meant to knock on the Yankees. But when you scroll down to the chart of WAR of homegrown pitchers, Yankees 16.4WAR beats out 21 teams. DRob's 6.4 WAR is better than ANY homegrown pitcher 20 other teams have produced.

    There are other studies including positional players but the results are pretty similar. Despite drafting low and having fewer spots available for youngsters, the Yankees have gotten more production out of homegrown talent than majority of MLB teams.

    The reason it doesn't feel that way is you just don't hear about teams that haven't gotten lucky with their prospects.

  20. #11745
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by just-blaze View Post
    Off the top of my head......DRob, Melancon, McCallister, Quintana, Montero.

    I guess it depends on your definition of significance, but those are productive MLers I mentioned.
    Mentioning DRob is a stretch since he actually came up 6 years ago, and Montero has been a colossal flop in Seattle.

    So, Melancon, McCallister and Quintana is all they (actually, other teams) have to show for 5 years of development? I would hardly call that significant....
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  21. #11746

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/yankees...090939543.html

    That article is meant to knock on the Yankees. But when you scroll down to the chart of WAR of homegrown pitchers, Yankees 16.4WAR beats out 21 teams. DRob's 6.4 WAR is better than ANY homegrown pitcher 20 other teams have produced.

    There are other studies including positional players but the results are pretty similar. Despite drafting low and having fewer spots available for youngsters, the Yankees have gotten more production out of homegrown talent than majority of MLB teams.

    The reason it doesn't feel that way is you just don't hear about teams that haven't gotten lucky with their prospects.
    I think just using WAR as a metric hides a lot. For example, how much of that WAR is with starting pitchers? Yes, the Yanks have been relatively more productive in developing relief pitchers, but the need for starting pitching plays a much more important role in constructing a team, no?

    It's also true that the CBA has changed the environment and the Yanks are at even more of a disadvantage going forward. They used to be able to sign w/o concern in the Intl markets and used their money advantage to lure " signability " cases in the domestic draft. That ain't gonna happen anymore. I have zero confidence in the current team adjusting . Just think about their string of disasters- CJ Henry, Cito Culver, Dante Bichette, Gerrit Cole- UFB
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdvM0IB5Sbs

    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGGRESSIVE

  22. #11747
    NYYF Legend

    goin for 27's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/yankees...090939543.html

    That article is meant to knock on the Yankees. But when you scroll down to the chart of WAR of homegrown pitchers, Yankees 16.4WAR beats out 21 teams. DRob's 6.4 WAR is better than ANY homegrown pitcher 20 other teams have produced.

    There are other studies including positional players but the results are pretty similar. Despite drafting low and having fewer spots available for youngsters, the Yankees have gotten more production out of homegrown talent than majority of MLB teams.

    The reason it doesn't feel that way is you just don't hear about teams that haven't gotten lucky with their prospects.
    I would certainly like to see these other studies. I don't know what you are smoking, but our farm SUCKS. You want DRob? Great arm, but still a reliever. Value is in Starters.

    I know it is lazy, but I look at the Sox. Lester, Buchholtz, Pedroia, Ellsbury, and recent up and comers in Nava, Bradley Jr, Doubrant and Middlebrooks. Never mind a huge blue chip prospect in Boegaerts.

    That is what I would love to see....SEVERAL cost controlled young players. I understand that Pedroia is now highly paid, Ellsbury will be (probably not with Sox)

    They also have big value contracts with home grown talent, Lester/Buchholtz signed for 5/30. Great value for prime years.
    Goin for 2<strike>7</strike>8!

  23. #11748

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    You're right it's lazy. You don't have to look back that far to see Red Sox had their own lean years in the 90s while they have been historically good in the last 7 or 8 years. They are probably doing some things right but c'mon, it took them 100 years to hit that lottery.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/build...-of-the-worst/

    By this ranking, Yankees are in the bottom half ranking 22nd in overall WAR and WAR per player. That's not good, but frankly not awful given the handicaps the Yankees are working with.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/build...-of-the-worst/

    "Production from within" has Yankees ranked 18th. Again, it's not great but not awful given handicaps we work with.

    For farm rankings:
    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=20025
    14th in 2013
    http://www.baseballamerica.com/today...2/2613155.html
    13th in 2012

    I readily concede the Red Sox has been phenomenal in negotiating player contracts. I don't mean the locking players up early (they gave Lester and Buch a lot of security, and they have missed play time). I mean just how they get players, FAs included, to sign below market contracts. Pedroia, Wakefield (who the F signs perpetual team option contracts?), and DiceK (lots and lots of "pay for performance" and Red Sox was the only one that correctly read the leverage of the buying team in the posting process).

    This is another one that might give you guys pause on the value of draft picks in MLB
    https://www.baseballamerica.com/draf...aft-flashback/

    The most relevant portion to us is the 21-30. Let me put it this way, low first round draft picks are underdogs to play at Jayson Nix (his 0.7WAR is right about on pace for 10 over his career) level in MLB over the course of their career.

    If you want value from the draft, you have to tank, and tank extremely hard all the way to No. 1 pick. Because even the No. 2 pick's value falls off very sharply.

  24. #11749

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by goin for 27 View Post
    That is what I would love to see....SEVERAL cost controlled young players. I understand that Pedroia is now highly paid, Ellsbury will be (probably not with Sox)
    Again, this requires getting lucky, very lucky. Even within the division, the Rays have a very small window before they have to pony up and their new guys have not been performing at anything near David Price or Evan Longoria's levels either.

  25. #11750
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    The problem is that you are looking at things in a vacuum. Drafting and development of talent are related. The Yanks have not just drafted poorly, they have been god awful developing talent. Next, you are ignoring resources. The Yanks have/had more resources than anyone else in the game. That is a big advantage when it comes to dollars deployed to scouting, and certainly the ability to sign both draft picks and IFA's. They have failed pretty miserably.

    I understand that there is an element of luck on each pick. However, the proper system mitigates much of that luck over time. The Yanks have been awful for a LONG time now.

    With the resources they have, I feel that the Yanks should be in the top five in player dev.
    Goin for 2<strike>7</strike>8!

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