Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

[unfamous loser]

I'm not talking about the MRI to get the trade approved. I'm talking about the MRI after that ST training start.

snapple is saying the tear happened in rehab after that start; I'm saying it's not ridiculous to suggest/assume the tear existed, in some size, when they first realized something was physically wrong, due to that ST start, as it only would have shown up with the contrast by some reports.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

I'm not talking about the MRI when the trade was approved. I'm talking about the MRI after that ST training start.

snapple is saying the tear happened in rehab after that start; I'm saying it's not ridiculous to suggest the tear existed when they first realized something was physically wrong, due to that ST start, as it only would have shown up with the contrast by some reports.

Gotcha. It's possible (or "not ridiculous," as you said), but not really knowable. I don't think that anyone can categorically state what would have been determined at that point, but it does seem to me that something either happened or worsened in the last ST start.

[snapple]

I don't know when it happened. I'm taking the FOs word for it. Just arguing that there is no way of knowing.

[Art Vanderlay]

Are people really criticizing Cashman and his staff for their ability to evaluate pitching talent because they did not predict this injury to Pineda?

I can understand, though I do not agree with, criticizing Cashman for trading Montero for a great young pitcher with five years of team control remaining because even great young pitchers are more vulnerable to unexpected injuries than are young DH's, or even young marginal catchers. But using hindsight to attack him is ridiculous.

And, Art, why is it that what happens with Montero's productivity not relevant because he was a "huge trade chip", but what happens to Pineda in hindsight is? And why is it okay to evaluate Cashman with hindsight but not Girardi?

For me its not a Pineda issue. Its the organizations very poor track record in evaluating and developing pitching. Its about the "process" that led to Jeff Weaver, Carl Pavano, Keii Igawa, Jared Wright, Kevin Brown, AJ Burnett, Pedro Felciano, etc. etc. Its about the inability to develop our high end young pitchers due to a misguided philosphy of babying them in the minors. Let me be clear, I'm not calling for Cashman's head, but when its comes to pitching evaluations the results have not been good. IMO he needs to change the structure of the organization regarding pitching evaluations. If he needs to bring in new voices with different philosphies, so be it.

Regarding Giradi, its very fair to evaluate him in hindsight, so lets do it. He been the manager for 4 years. He made the post season in 3 of those 4 seasons including a World Championship. Before last season nobody had the Yankees winning their division, as a matter fact most pundits had them out of the playoffs. Yet somehow Giradi managed to get 97 wins and a division title out of that group despite having a patch work rotation for most of the season and not having his cleanup hitter for half a season. He also has the respect of his players and bosses and has learned how to deal with the media in New York. SO overall I believe the results have been very good and IMO the managers position is strength not a weakness. And its difficult for me to imagine that another manager could have performed better the last 4 seasons. But reasonable minds can differ.

[effdamets]

Well - I'm not so sure I agree. Yes there have been pitching failures. But there has also been successes.
Clemens, Wells, Sabathia, Pettitte, Wang, Nova, Rivera, Robertson. And a little further back Key, Cone, El Duque, Mendoza, Stanton, Nelson.

Also - I wouldn't deem Pineda a failure just yet. He's only what, 23? There's a lotta time left in that arm.
Evaluating and drafting is such a crapshoot, it's not funny - especially pitching.

The main reason young arms don't come out of the Yankee farm system is patience. Other clubs allow their kids to come up and get clobbered for a while because their teams are not expected to be in the playoffs and contend for a World Series title every year. The Yankees never take a year off of that philosophy therefore the have to have the very best, proven commodities on the hill at all times. They cannot afford to send Phil Hughes (for example) out there for 3 months to get bashed around and learn the ropes - certainly not if they want to play in October.

Anyway - that's how I feel about it. Many will disagree but I'm OK with it.

[Art Vanderlay]

Well - I'm not so sure I agree. Yes there have been pitching failures. But there has also been successes.
Clemens, Wells, Sabathia, Pettitte, Wang, Nova, Rivera, Robertson. And a little further back Key, Cone, El Duque, Mendoza, Stanton, Nelson.

Also - I wouldn't deem Pineda a failure just yet. He's only what, 23? There's a lotta time left in that arm.
Evaluating and drafting is such a crapshoot, it's not funny - especially pitching.

The main reason young arms don't come out of the Yankee farm system is patience. Other clubs allow their kids to come up and get clobbered for a while because their teams are not expected to be in the playoffs and contend for a World Series title every year. The Yankees never take a year off of that philosophy therefore the have to have the very best, proven commodities on the hill at all times. They cannot afford to send Phil Hughes (for example) out there for 3 months to get bashed around and learn the ropes - certainly not if they want to play in October.

Anyway - that's how I feel about it. Many will disagree but I'm OK with it.

Yes, reasonable minds can disagree. I would just make two points regarding your post:

1) Many of the pitchers on your list of successes were acquired or developed 15 to 20 years ago.

2) I disagree that lack of patience is the reason so many of our high end young pitchers are struggling. IMO, its the babying in the minor leagues.

[effdamets]

Yes, reasonable minds can disagree. I would just make two points regarding your post:

1) Many of the pitchers on your list of successes were acquired or developed 15 to 20 years ago.

2) I disagree that lack of patience is the reason so many of our high end young pitchers are struggling. IMO, its the babying in the minor leagues.

In response to "1" - they still had to evaluate the pitchers they are acquiring, such as they did with Pineda.

On "2" - I'll agree with that point. These are basically grown men by the time they get there. Let 'em pitch. Enough of this pitch count bulldinky....

[eaganmafia]

They cannot afford to send Phil Hughes (for example) out there for 3 months to get bashed around and learn the ropes - certainly not if they want to play in October.

I'm pretty sure starting pitching Phil Hughes has been given more then enough time to go out there and learn the craft of pitching. Maybe he's just not any good and doesn't have the stuff to go through a lineup 2-3 times.

And if that's the case, tell Cashman to stop talking about growing some kids on the farm. If the organization isn't gonna give them enough time then just trade them while they're in the minors for something that will help the major league club.

[JSG]

Are people really criticizing Cashman and his staff for their ability to evaluate pitching talent because they did not predict this injury to Pineda?

I can understand, though I do not agree with, criticizing Cashman for trading Montero for a great young pitcher with five years of team control remaining because even great young pitchers are more vulnerable to unexpected injuries than are young DH's, or even young marginal catchers. But using hindsight to attack him is ridiculous.

Bingo. Assuming the medical staff isn't totally incompetent, the trade made a lot of sense at the time, and it still may work out. Unless there's clear proof they were negligent, i file this one under sheee-it happens, similar to the Pavano injury that no one saw coming. The pitching move that bothers me more is bidding squat for Darvish, tho who can say if this was Cashman laying low after past asian blunders or Hal just laying down the budget rules.

[Yankees1962]

Yes, reasonable minds can disagree. I would just make two points regarding your post:

1) Many of the pitchers on your list of successes were acquired or developed 15 to 20 years ago.

2) I disagree that lack of patience is the reason so many of our high end young pitchers are struggling. IMO, its the babying in the minor leagues.

I don't think it's that simplistic.

[teknetic]

The Nats babying of Strasburg paid dividends.

[effdamets]

The Nats babying of Strasburg paid dividends.

That's one.

[mbn007]

I don't think it's that simplistic.

Actually, I think that is part of it. But a more important problem is that we do not allow pitchers to learn in the Major Leagues.. At the first sign of trouble, out they go. We need to let some guys get rocked a bit up here, and see if they learn from their mistakes. I realize we can't really do this and also compete, but we do need to find some happy medium.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

Actually, I think that is part of it. But a more important problem is that we do not allow pitchers to learn in the Major Leagues.. At the first sign of trouble, out they go. We need to let some guys get rocked a bit up here, and see if they learn from their mistakes. I realize we can't really do this and also compete, but we do need to find some happy medium.

Can we still say that? They were pretty patient with Nova at the end of 2010.

I agree with you though that there's likely not a single thing we're talking about. Of course, I also think the sample size is a little small to make any grand conclusions from it

[False1]

The main reason young arms don't come out of the Yankee farm system is patience. Other clubs allow their kids to come up and get clobbered for a while because their teams are not expected to be in the playoffs and contend for a World Series title every year. The Yankees never take a year off of that philosophy therefore the have to have the very best, proven commodities on the hill at all times. They cannot afford to send Phil Hughes (for example) out there for 3 months to get bashed around and learn the ropes - certainly not if they want to play in October.

I agree that this is a challenge that is very unique to the Yankees. They HAVE to win every year. I don't know if it has anything at all to do with what transpired with Hughes or Joba, but both were accelerated to the bigs to try and help the team win.

When Phil was called up the rotation was in shambles. He showed he could contribute at the ML level right away with that start in Texas, but would he have been better off with more seasoning and working on secondary pitches? I don't have links but I'm pretty confident that going into that season and even shortly prior to his initial call up that Cashman said we wouldn't see Hughes that year.

Chamberlain was absolutely destroying all levels of mL pitching in his first year in the minors, and his stuff was clearly ML caliber. But he was called up to strengthen a bullpen. While it paid immediate divdends (which goes back to the Yankees' unique challenge of win every year) who knows if the pen/rotation/pen/Joba Rules/innings limits contributed to him not reaching his ceiling. On another club, he probably finishes out that year in the minors and starts the next year in the minors as well.

The win-now-and-win-always mission statement for the Yankees presents them unique challenges both in terms of player development and efficiency when it comes to payroll. They don't have the leisure of patience in the minors or in the majors and they've had to make decisions in the past that were good bets to payoff now even if they were uncertain to payoff downstream.

[False1]

Can we still say that? They were pretty patient with Nova at the end of 2010.

Good point, but they were patient with him because he was soaking up starts from the likes of Vasquez/Burnett/Moseley/Mitre types, who were all atrocious at the time.

[effdamets]

Good point, but they were patient with him because he was soaking up starts from the likes of Vasquez/Burnett/Moseley/Mitre types, who were all atrocious at the time.

Pffft...

Meat-Tray..... The thing that scares me most is that the Yankees are one sore-armed pitcher away from re-acquiring that monkey-nuts...

[Yankees1962]

Pffft...

Meat-Tray..... The thing that scares me most is that the Yankees are one sore-armed pitcher away from re-acquiring that monkey-nuts of a pitcher!

They will try Mitchell or Phelps first.

[effdamets]

They will try Mitchell or Phelps first.

...we hope.

[Art Vanderlay]

Actually, I think that is part of it. But a more important problem is that we do not allow pitchers to learn in the Major Leagues.. At the first sign of trouble, out they go. We need to let some guys get rocked a bit up here, and see if they learn from their mistakes. I realize we can't really do this and also compete, but we do need to find some happy medium.

We also need to let pitchers learn how to pitch deep into games in the minors. The better minor league teams have perhaps a couple of hitters that would be considered quality major league material. If we are training our pitchers to go five against that level of competetion how in the heck can we expect them to pitch deep into games at the ML level? Hughes was getting pulled after 75 pitches in some Double A games, I witnessed it. The manager of that team was fired as a direct result of expressing reservations about that philosphy. I believe I read somewhere that Banuelos didn't go past five in the majority of his starts last year. And then there were the infamous Joba rules. As someone else pointed out, the pitchers that are flying under the radar seem to be having better sucess because they are being allowed to develop and not shackled by arbitrary pitch counts and rules.

Regarding Yu Darvish, I don't know what happened there. Was it the Steibrenners unwilling to spend or Cashman not wanting to take a chance on another Japanese pitcher? None of us know for sure. But consider this, for Texas Nolan Ryan evaluated Darvish, for our side it was Cashman and his team. Who do you think had a better chance of getting that one right?

[Yankees1962]

...we hope.

They got no choice for any type of immediate help.

[False1]

Pffft...

Meat-Tray..... The thing that scares me most is that the Yankees are one sore-armed pitcher away from re-acquiring that monkey-nuts of a pitcher!

It's very frustrating to have started the year with so many GOOD starting pitching options, to realize that your comment is very true. Doesn't seem like anyone in mL is jumping up as an option, although Phelps has had moments in his time with the club.

[Yankees1962]

We also need to let pitchers learn how to pitch deep into games in the minors. The better minor league teams have perhaps a couple of hitters that would be considered quality major league material. If we are training our pitchers to go five against that level of competetion how in the heck can we expect them to pitch deep into games at the ML level? Hughes was getting pulled after 75 pitches in some Double A games, I witnessed it. The manager of that team was fired as a direct result of expressing reservations about that philosphy. I believe I read somewhere that Banuelos didn't go past five in the majority of his starts last year. And then there were the infamous Joba rules. As someone else pointed out, the pitchers that are flying under the radar seem to be having better sucess because they are being allowed to develop and not shackled by arbitrary pitch counts and rules.

Regarding Yu Darvish, I don't know what happened there. Was it the Steibrenners unwilling to spend or Cashman not wanting to take a chance on another Japanese pitcher? None of us know for sure. But consider this, for Texas Nolan Ryan evaluated Darvish, for our side it was Cashman and his team. Who do you think had a better chance of getting that one right?

The Rangers are at a different place than the Yankees in regard to gambling on Darvish. If the Yankees were well below the luxury tax threshold like Texas and not paying out revenue sharing checks to clubs like Texas, the Yankees probably would've tried to sign Darvish more aggressively.

[Yankees1962]

It's very frustrating to have started the year with so many GOOD starting pitching options, to realize that your comment is very true. Doesn't seem like anyone in mL is jumping up as an option, although Phelps has had moments in his time with the club.

DJ Mitchell is having a fine season so far.

[False1]

Regarding Yu Darvish, I don't know what happened there. Was it the Steibrenners unwilling to spend or Cashman not wanting to take a chance on another Japanese pitcher? None of us know for sure. But consider this, for Texas Nolan Ryan evaluated Darvish, for our side it was Cashman and his team. Who do you think had a better chance of getting that one right?

I'm certain Nolan Ryan can still throw harder than Cashman, but there is no evidence that he is a better scout single-handedly than the entire Yankee FO.

Ryan gambled big in letting Wilson walk for about 75% of the cost and 1 less year than Darvish. Wilson has been very effective with the Angels so far, and Darvish has shown his stuff is legit. Will be interesting to watch.

And IMHO signing Darvish was a logical (if unfortunate) risk/reward decision. If he pitches like an ace for 6 years you get what you've paid for and not much more. If he doesn't, you're overpaying him. If he busts, you're really hurting your team not just by trotting him out there but by tying up payroll that can't be reinvested elsewhere. Given where the Yankee payroll is and how much they have tied up in other aging players, the risk outweighed the reward.