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  1. #9651
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePinStripes View Post
    what makes you say that.

    I think he signs Kuroda and keeps Montero. At that point, you have plenty of pitching and you get to keep Montero.
    Long term inexpensive pitcher projected to be a top of the rotation pitcher for essentially a DH. I think Montero will turn out to be every bit the hitter he is projected to be however I don't see him as a catcher in the bigs. Catcher is also a position we are strong in organizationally speaking. The Yanks moves are all about getting under that $189 million mark by 2014.
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  2. #9652
    Slow in, Fast out ThePinStripes's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Long term inexpensive pitcher projected to be a top of the rotation pitcher for essentially a DH. I think Montero will turn out to be every bit the hitter he is projected to be however I don't see him as a catcher in the bigs. Catcher is also a position we are strong in organizationally speaking. The Yanks moves are all about getting under that $189 million mark by 2014.
    Given that the cost of Montero and Pineda is a wash (it's not like we traded a $15M player for league minimum) and Kuroda is a 1 year deal, neither of these have much bearing on 2014
    A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!

  3. #9653
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePinStripes View Post
    what makes you say that.

    I think he signs Kuroda and keeps Montero. At that point, you have plenty of pitching and you get to keep Montero.
    Cashman is on record saying through the media that the $10 million/1 year deal used to sign Kuroda was the money he would have used to sigh Pettitte back in December.

    Pineda is still a Yankee if we would have signed Pettitte in December.

    Kuroda wouldn't have been.

  4. #9654
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePinStripes View Post
    Given that the cost of Montero and Pineda is a wash (it's not like we traded a $15M player for league minimum) and Kuroda is a 1 year deal, neither of these have much bearing on 2014
    No however both Kuroda and Pettitte are one year deals and both likely gone after this year which is why I believe that to the the correlation. We also have depth at catcher and we will need inexpensive pitchers behind CC and Pineda won't be FA eligible until after the 2016 season. Pineda being hurt changes things but if all went to plan, we sign Andy and we don't sign Kuroda. Cashman said as much when he was talking about the signing of Andy. They offered Andy the $10 million they bent the budget to sign Kuroda with but Andy wasn't ready to commit at that point.
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  5. #9655
    Slow in, Fast out ThePinStripes's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Interesting. Thanks for the perspective.
    A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!

  6. #9656

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    you always go for the extra pitching depth. it's a cutting edge lesson in roster construction.


    of course, thsi has to be done at reasonable cost but the point is that pitching depth = win win win
    always reasonable

  7. #9657
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Sometimes it's the little things that Cash does / doesn't do that are painful.

    I have no idea why he opted to re-sign Garcia for $4MM guaranteed when Colon was available and ended up signing for half that. 2012 had regression written all over Garcia's face before he even showed up to camp. Colon flashed legitimate front of the rotation stuff last year, although he faded in the second half.

    I guess the silver lining is that the $1.5MM in incentives in Garcia's deal don't appear to be likely.

  8. #9658

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Sometimes it's the little things that Cash does / doesn't do that are painful.

    I have no idea why he opted to re-sign Garcia for $4MM guaranteed when Colon was available and ended up signing for half that. 2012 had regression written all over Garcia's face before he even showed up to camp. Colon flashed legitimate front of the rotation stuff last year, although he faded in the second half.

    I guess the silver lining is that the $1.5MM in incentives in Garcia's deal don't appear to be likely.
    Garcia was the better starter last year.

    Like you said, Colon faded. Looked very rough in the second half. Doesn't look like he had a lot of offers.
    You know they are not real pies, right?

    "I heard Jackie Bradley junior was already voted to the ASG....for the next three years." - NerfBall55 4/4/2013

  9. #9659
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoux101 View Post
    Garcia was the better starter last year.

    Like you said, Colon faded. Looked very rough in the second half. Doesn't look like he had a lot of offers.
    This is why stats like xFIP were invented though.

    Colon 3.57, Garcia 4.36

    Colon did fade in the second half, but even so his WHIP wasn't far off Garcia's. Just seemed obvious to me that, as much as I enjoyed Garcia's '11 season, it was a house of cards just waiting to get knocked over by reality. Colon looked far more legitimate to me, even with his swoon.

  10. #9660

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    This is why stats like xFIP were invented though.

    Colon 3.57, Garcia 4.36

    Colon did fade in the second half, but even so his WHIP wasn't far off Garcia's. Just seemed obvious to me that, as much as I enjoyed Garcia's '11 season, it was a house of cards just waiting to get knocked over by reality. Colon looked far more legitimate to me, even with his swoon.
    Colon had a great dominant stretch for sure. I enjoyed watching it.

    Garcia was consistent. Healthy (unless you buy the "cut"). Colon wasn't the same in the second half. Colon missed starts and wasn't even considered for a playoff start.
    You know they are not real pies, right?

    "I heard Jackie Bradley junior was already voted to the ASG....for the next three years." - NerfBall55 4/4/2013

  11. #9661

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Sometimes it's the little things that Cash does / doesn't do that are painful.

    I have no idea why he opted to re-sign Garcia for $4MM guaranteed when Colon was available and ended up signing for half that. 2012 had regression written all over Garcia's face before he even showed up to camp. Colon flashed legitimate front of the rotation stuff last year, although he faded in the second half.

    I guess the silver lining is that the $1.5MM in incentives in Garcia's deal don't appear to be likely.
    Few of us questioned the choice this offseason. I know I didn't because I thought the Yankees felt Colon was going to get hurt again due to his physical condition.

  12. #9662
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    Few of us questioned the choice this offseason. I know I didn't because I thought the Yankees felt Colon was going to get hurt again due to his physical condition.
    I definitely did... even before the Yankees signed Kuroda, traded for Pineda and made it clear Colon was on the outs I wasn't a fan of bringing Garcia back.

    Garcia hasn't exactly been a model for durability either. In the four seasons before last year, he totaled 260 IP.

  13. #9663

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I definitely did... even before the Yankees signed Kuroda, traded for Pineda and made it clear Colon was on the outs I wasn't a fan of bringing Garcia back.

    Garcia hasn't exactly been a model for durability either. In the four seasons before last year, he totaled 260 IP.
    You weren't in the majority. Furthermore, what we don't know the status of Colon's relationship with the Yankees, particularly with Girardi and Rothschild late in the season. Also, Garcia was more healthy than Colon as I think they had major concerns about his weight and such.

  14. #9664
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    I get the reason why they chose Garcia over Colon. Colon got hurt and was coming off a new "weird" procedure. As the year went on, his effectiveness dropped and so did his velocity. They went with the guy who gave them innings over the guy who gave them half a really good season. Now, would I have brought them both back? Probably but get why they didn't. Garcia sucks right now and he may well lose his rotation spot and disappear. But that doesn't change the circumstances surrounding Colon.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
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  15. #9665
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    I get the reason why they chose Garcia over Colon. Colon got hurt and was coming off a new "weird" procedure. As the year went on, his effectiveness dropped and so did his velocity. They went with the guy who gave them innings over the guy who gave them half a really good season. Now, would I have brought them both back? Probably but get why they didn't. Garcia sucks right now and he may well lose his rotation spot and disappear. But that doesn't change the circumstances surrounding Colon.
    Garcia got hurt last year too and missed several starts. As I mentioned in my prior post, Garcia logged 260 innings pitched in the four seasons prior to last year. That included 150 below league average innings on 2010. The "weird" procedure seemed to work, given how tremendous his stuff looked before he got injured. I said early on last year that second to Rivera's cutter that Colon's 2 seamer was arguably the most impressive offering on the staff. Given that they were both injury risks, I'd have preferred Cash went with the guy that flashed overpowering stuff and better peripherals than the junk baller that had what seemed to be a unsustainable ERA.

  16. #9666
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Garcia got hurt last year too and missed several starts. As I mentioned in my prior post, Garcia logged 260 innings pitched in the four seasons prior to last year. That included 150 below league average innings on 2010. The "weird" procedure seemed to work, given how tremendous his stuff looked before he got injured. I said early on last year that second to Rivera's cutter that Colon's 2 seamer was arguably the most impressive offering on the staff. Given that they were both injury risks, I'd have preferred Cash went with the guy that flashed overpowering stuff and better peripherals than the junk baller that had what seemed to be a unsustainable ERA.
    I understand your point and won't argue it. I'm just saying that I understand why the FO went with Garcia.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  17. #9667

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Garcia got hurt last year too and missed several starts. As I mentioned in my prior post, Garcia logged 260 innings pitched in the four seasons prior to last year. That included 150 below league average innings on 2010. The "weird" procedure seemed to work, given how tremendous his stuff looked before he got injured. I said early on last year that second to Rivera's cutter that Colon's 2 seamer was arguably the most impressive offering on the staff. Given that they were both injury risks, I'd have preferred Cash went with the guy that flashed overpowering stuff and better peripherals than the junk baller that had what seemed to be a unsustainable ERA.

    I would have brought neither one of them back. IMO, they are both a house of cards. I would prefer giving the 5th spot to someone like Phelps, Mitchell, or Warren. Chances are one of the three would be able to do an adequate job as the number 5 starter.

  18. #9668
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    I would have brought neither one of them back. IMO, they are both a house of cards. I would prefer giving the 5th spot to someone like Phelps, Mitchell, or Warren. Chances are one of the three would be able to do an adequate job as the number 5 starter.
    I agree, but at the time neither Kuroda nor Pineda were in the fold, let alone Pettitte.

  19. #9669
    when the going gets tough ... JSG's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I agree, but at the time neither Kuroda nor Pineda were in the fold, let alone Pettitte.
    Cashman also tried to deal Garcia a few times after he acquired those other two and Andy decided to return, right ?? So Garcia's grip on the #5 slot is tenuous at best. That said, hopefully he can regain feel of his fork and be at least a serviceable #5, even after Andy returns. This would allow Phil to return to the pen, assuming he doesn't totally turn it around, and stabilize things until Pineda can return. If Pineda is out any significant time, then it's Garcia or a yute for #5 slot. Probably a decent chance they skip his turn vs Tigers later this week w the off day.

    Re Cashman, i think he did a great job of putting pitching options together. Garcia was a low cost insurance policy. As far as Colon goes, he was occasionally dominant, which Garcia never was, but he also was the riskier choice given reliance on FB and early burnout last yr.

  20. #9670
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    It's ALWAYS better to have too many options than not enough....
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  21. #9671
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JSG View Post
    Cashman also tried to deal Garcia a few times after he acquired those other two and Andy decided to return, right ??
    Not that I ever heard of. Garcia can't be traded without his consent until June 15.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  22. #9672
    when the going gets tough ... JSG's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Not that I ever heard of. Garcia can't be traded without his consent until June 15.
    not sure if they were legit, but some "reports" were floating around circa the end of march. EG >> http://riveraveblues.com/2012/03/rep...marlins-65845/, http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1118962-new-york-yankees-actively-trying-to-trade-freddy-garcia

    >> from the second one: .........But according to David Waldstein of the New York Times, Garcia is open to a trade if it means getting a starting job.

    Danny Knobler of CBS Sports reported that the Yankees did in fact offer Garcia to the Miami Marlins, but they turned down the Yankees offer.

  23. #9673
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JSG View Post
    not sure if they were legit, but some "reports" were floating around circa the end of march. EG >> http://riveraveblues.com/2012/03/rep...marlins-65845/, http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1118962-new-york-yankees-actively-trying-to-trade-freddy-garcia

    >> from the second one: .........But according to David Waldstein of the New York Times, Garcia is open to a trade if it means getting a starting job.

    Danny Knobler of CBS Sports reported that the Yankees did in fact offer Garcia to the Miami Marlins, but they turned down the Yankees offer.
    OK, fair enough. I found this kind of amusing, from that Bleacher Report article:

    When Garcia signed his one-year deal back at the end of November, there was a clause that the Yankees had to get Garcia's permission for any type of trade before June 16th.
    Yeah, that "clause" is also known as "the CBA."
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  24. #9674
    when the going gets tough ... JSG's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Yeah, that "clause" is also known as "the CBA."
    AHA, didn't connect the dots, thanks !!

  25. #9675

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    With pineda done for the year and hughes and garcia pitching poorly its possible the yanks might have to look into trading to improve the back of the rotation. I really didn't think that would need to be an option this year.

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