Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

[justtxyank]

Cashman also nailed it when he didn't pick up Cameron last year. Great move.
When everyone said we needed him so badly, it turns out we didn't.

How did he nail it?

Would Cameron have hurt us?

[JavyVazquezIsSick]

I as a huge Cameron for Cabrera proponent, and while he made the right call financially last season, it wasn't until he turned Cabrera into a chip for Vasquez that I'd say he nailed that one...

...especially if Javy can net us two first rounders next off-season

If he has a bad season you have to worry he accepts arb and if he has a good season you have to worry the Yankees offer him a contract. Going to be interesting.

[justtxyank]

If he has a bad season you have to worry he accepts arb and if he has a good season you have to worry the Yankees offer him a contract. Going to be interesting.

I bet Cashman is pissing himself in fear of making an arbitration decision on Vazquez.

[OldYankeeFan]

Would Cameron have hurt us?

Apparently we were in fact working with a pretty firm budget after the CC, AJ and Tex signings last year. So during the off season if we persued a Melky/Cameron trade there would not have been enough for the Pettitte signing. IIRC The Yankees were squeezing Pettitte because of budget constraints and that was without the net 7 mil they would have had to lay out for Cameron. During the season it came up again and Hal just said no for financial reasons.

Obviously in hindsight we were better with Pettitte and Gardner/Melky than we would have been with Cameron and no Pettitte.

I think that holds true again this year when Cameron was available in FA. If Cashman pulled the trigger on that on then there's not enough money for Javy to come back. And although Cameron would have been an upgrade I think we are a stronger team with Gardner and Javy.

[ThePinStripes]

How did he nail it?

Would Cameron have hurt us?

He couldn't have possibly helped us. Things couldn't have turned out any better. It's not like we could have won two world series last year.

He certainly would have cost us money and prospects.

[justtxyank]

I don't recall anyone who advocated for Cameron (myself included) ever arguing that we should get him if his contract was prohibitive to the Yankees plans. In fact, that was always a caveat to liking the deal, "If the money isn't a problem..."

Cashman didn't nail it by not getting Cameron. He nailed it by picking Pettitte over Cameron (if that was really the choice) which I don't think anyone here would have disagreed with at the time.

[ThePinStripes]

I bet Cashman is pissing himself in fear of making an arbitration decision on Vazquez.

or Javy having a good year I assure you, neither is something Cashman is concerned about.


Even if he has a bad year (95ERA+) and accepts arbitration, he'll get $12M for one year.

Pettitte is getting $12M right now and he's not much better than a bad Vazquez (Pettitte = 103 ERA+), and I'd argue Petttitte is a bigger injury risk.

[ThePinStripes]

I don't recall anyone who advocated for Cameron (myself included) ever arguing that we should get him if his contract was prohibitive to the Yankees plans. In fact, that was always a caveat to liking the deal, "If the money isn't a problem..."

Cashman didn't nail it by not getting Cameron. He nailed it by picking Pettitte over Cameron (if that was really the choice) which I don't think anyone here would have disagreed with at the time.

I was talking about trade deadline stuff. Hinske/Hairston >>> Cameron.

Or am I retarded and misremembering Cameron being considered?

[justtxyank]

I was talking about trade deadline stuff. Hinske/Hairston >>> Cameron.

Or am I retarded and misremembering Cameron being considered?

I don't know, I didn't have any debates that I remember around the deadline of Cameron vs Hinske/Hairston.

The debate was always about whether Cameron was better than Melky. Lots of people on this board argued he wouldn't be an upgrade. That was silly, and winning the WS doesn't change that. Also, how did Cash nail it when he apparently asked Hal to expand the budget so he COULD get Cameron? His boss wouldn't let him make a move he wanted to make. I wouldn't call that him nailing it.

[OldYankeeFan]

The debate was always about whether Cameron was better than Melky. Lots of people on this board argued he wouldn't be an upgrade.

Pre-season I don't remember a debate over whether or not Cameron was better than Melky as I think that was a given. Certainly I know I was not in the Cameron camp because I was of the opinion that since the Yankees were trying to keep the budget around 200M that Cameron was not worth the 7M difference in salary with Melky as we needed to spend that money on pitching . So props to Cashman for that.

However I did read something recently that an in-season deal Cashman was entertaining for Cameron was nixed by Hal because of the money, so if that is correct Cashman shouldn't get the props for not making that deal.

[ajra21]

Cashman also nailed it when he didn't pick up Cameron last year. Great move. When everyone said we needed him so badly, it turns out we didn't.

i never wanted cameron. so glad we didn't get him.

[ajra21]

Anyone read Onleys book last night of the Yankee Dynasty?? Cash deserves a ton of credit for restructuring the whole system and getting the farm system in order

yep, i've read it.

since he got full control of the club, he's done a really good job. i am a firm believer that had he been allowed to do his job all along, we'd have won 28 and 29 by now. my only real concerns are that we still have three guys in the rotation who are closer to 35 than 30; and that the left side of our defense is gonna be locked up for a very long time when they are already in their mid 30s. that said, we won the WS last year and a good chance of winning again in the next couple of years. beyond that, who knows what will happen.

[justtxyank]

Pre-season I don't remember a debate over whether or not Cameron was better than Melky as I think that was a given.

It most certainly was debated. His strikeouts, batting average and age were all used to explain why Melky was better. Right here in this thread you have a poster saying "I never wanted him. So glad we didn't get him." People didn't like Cameron the player and that was the source of the argument that erupted.

However I did read something recently that an in-season deal Cashman was entertaining for Cameron was nixed by Hal because of the money, so if that is correct Cashman shouldn't get the props for not making that deal.

Agreed. Cashman doesn't get credit for a move he wanted to make being blocked by his boss ending up for the best.

[ajra21]

you are quite right. the debate about melky or cameron was long and detailed.

[OldYankeeFan]

It most certainly was debated. His strikeouts, batting average and age were all used to explain why Melky was better. Right here in this thread you have a poster saying "I never wanted him. So glad we didn't get him." People didn't like Cameron the player and that was the source of the argument that erupted.

Haha. Wow, I must have missed that one. People were actually arguing that Melky was a better ballplayer than Cameron? Holy crap, I didn't want Cameron because of the money, but there is NO doubt which side of the argument I would have been on for - whose better Melky or Cameron?

[JavyVazquezIsSick]

Cameron might be the better player, but Melky is much more clutch. Guy had like 6 walk offs last year.

[False1]

Cameron might be the better player, but Melky is much more clutch. Guy had like 6 walk offs last year.

It's moot, and Melky did have a great stretch of walkoff hits last year, but in terms of overall high leverage scenarios in '09 there were pretty much on par with each other.

Melky - .276 / .321 / .429
Cameron - .230 / .361 / .380

Clearly worked in the team's favor to keep Cabrera in terms of the $$ saved and the chip used to get Vazquez.

And RSN should note that Cameron had 7 stolen bases in 10 attempts last year... BY FAR his lowest total attempted since breaking into the league. I wonder if his age 37 season will be the year he loses that step that has made him a threat on the bases and an asset in center field...

[ThePinStripes]

It's moot, and Melky did have a great stretch of walkoff hits last year, but in terms of overall high leverage scenarios in '09 there were pretty much on par with each other.

Melky - .276 / .321 / .429
Cameron - .230 / .361 / .380

Clearly worked in the team's favor to keep Cabrera in terms of the $$ saved and the chip used to get Vazquez.

And RSN should note that Cameron had 7 stolen bases in 10 attempts last year... BY FAR his lowest total attempted since breaking into the league. I wonder if his age 37 season will be the year he loses that step that has made him a threat on the bases and an asset in center field...

Cashman's bargain basement pickups > Theo Einstein's bargain basement pickups.

I don't know why they place such a high emphasis on outfield defense either. Does Theo know they play 81 games in Fenway?

[ajra21]

Cashman's bargain basement pickups > Theo Einstein's bargain basement pickups.

I don't know why they place such a high emphasis on outfield defense either. Does Theo know they play 81 games in Fenway?

well, in fairness, their centre field and right field are pretty big. i understand why he got cameron to play left though. as a righty, he'll probably love hitting there and produce above his recent norms, all the while playing superior defense and at a far lower cost. you should also remeber that they play 81 games outside of fenway, including many in a certain stadium with a pretty big left field. three of the four western teams have very big left fields also. am i right in thinking that the dome in tampa is fairly large in left as well? there are others too.

there might be a case for playing brett in right and nick in left when we go to fenway park.

[Saxmania]

or Javy having a good year I assure you, neither is something Cashman is concerned about.


Even if he has a bad year (95ERA+) and accepts arbitration, he'll get $12M for one year.

Pettitte is getting $12M right now and he's not much better than a bad Vazquez (Pettitte = 103 ERA+), and I'd argue Petttitte is a bigger injury risk.

Yeah, I think Vazquez would have to have a truly weird year not to get offered arbitration. If he has a poor yea (90-100 ERA+), then you probably don't want him in 2011, but his arb. award also goes down, which makes him tradeable. He'd have to have an apocalyptically bad year to be untradeable, given his NL track record.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[ajra21]

it would not surprise me if we keep vasquez next year to replace andy, whom i expect to retire after 2010.

[R.V.47]

it would not surprise me if we keep vasquez next year to replace andy, whom i expect to retire after 2010.

Eventually Hughes and Joba gotta take the reigns and be in this rotation together full time. Hughes and Joba should replace Pettitte and Vazquez and the remaining spot should go to someone from next years FA class.

[JavyVazquezIsSick]

It's moot, and Melky did have a great stretch of walkoff hits last year, but in terms of overall high leverage scenarios in '09 there were pretty much on par with each other.

Melky - .276 / .321 / .429
Cameron - .230 / .361 / .380

Clearly worked in the team's favor to keep Cabrera in terms of the $$ saved and the chip used to get Vazquez.

And RSN should note that Cameron had 7 stolen bases in 10 attempts last year... BY FAR his lowest total attempted since breaking into the league. I wonder if his age 37 season will be the year he loses that step that has made him a threat on the bases and an asset in center field...

Wow. Didn't think anyone was going to take the bait.

[ajra21]

Eventually Hughes and Joba gotta take the reigns and be in this rotation together full time. Hughes and Joba should replace Pettitte and Vazquez and the remaining spot should go to someone from next years FA class.

who? beckett? no thanks, besides he's gonna re-sign with the red sox. lee will be looking for a very long contract at the age of 32. again, no thanks - we have enough big, long contracts. webb might be an option but only if he were to take a shorter deal but i doubt that hapopens either.

[JavyVazquezIsSick]

Webb or Wandy too.