Hitting Rock Bottom

[frostdude1]

I was thinking about this earlier on. For the first time ever I think a part of me wants the Yankees to miss the playoffs so we can actually have a major shakeup.

I think making the playoffs again with this team would bring another first round loss again and then the Front Office can't really make major changes since they were good enough to make the playoffs and they'll just try to tweak it again with 1 or 2 players.

But if we actually miss the playoffs and God knows with media, it would be a crisis zone in the Fall and Cash would have all the power to get rid of whoever he wants and make the trades he's wanted to for the past couple of years.

Is anyone in this tough predicament like I am ?

[THEBOSS84]

You know, this is EXACTLY how I felt this time last year yet we ended up making the playoffs.

I completely understand your POV.

If we are not gonna make the playoffs, I would prefer that our team be atleast 10 games back at the trading deadline so we can really wheel and deal.

Also, if we were to have a bottom 15 record we would not lose our first round pick when signing Tex or CC, which is a major bonus.

[frostdude1]

You know, this is EXACTLY how I felt this time last year yet we ended up making the playoffs.

Yea exactly, and we ended up getting knocked out in the playoffs by a team with better pitchers. And course since we made the playoffs, the season wasn't a disaster and the front office didn't make major changes. Torre was going to be let go either way so that doesn't count.

[THEBOSS84]

It would be so much better from a rebuild standpoint if the team sucked the entire year as opposed to battling for a playoff spot and missing out.

[Yankee Tripper]

No I want the 3 kids to pitch the second half of the season like 3 guys you'd be nuts to trade for Johan Santana.

I'm not expecting that but no I don't want to miss the damn playoffs either just becuase I'm worried we "might lose in the first round". If a sucky team like the Cardinals can win the WS with the likes of Jeff Freakin' Weaver in their rotation then I'll take my chances with a possible 1st round exit if the Yanks can get their act together enough to make it.

As for wholesale changes where would they come from. If you ship out the likes of Abreu, Damon, Matsui, Pettitte, Musina, Giambi by trade/non-renewal who would replace them? Unless the Yanks will heavily subsidize the reamining money on any of those contracts we would be getting less than zero talent in return.

Outside of Tex, CC and possibly Sheets (if you think he'll be healthy) what's on the FA martket worth going after in 2009? Even w/o a wholesale selloff the Yanks wouldn't be priced out of the market on any of those 3.

[teknetic]

It's a tough predicament. We've seen the same lifeless offense now the last 3 years and the last 4 games of the '04 ALCS. Asides from Damon and Giambi, what can you do? (Abreu and Matsui are still somewhat productive)

[R.V.47]

It would be so much better from a rebuild standpoint if the team sucked the entire year as opposed to battling for a playoff spot and missing out.

It would also be nice to not have a 200 million dollar payroll and be "rebuilding". If I hear Cashman or Girardi or any member of the FO say this was a rebuilding year I will go nuts because that is a flat out lie and an excuse for an underachieving team. Its like something out of the Isiah Thomas playbook.

[wardsp]

Having a 200 million payroll and having to say we are rebuilding is really rock bottom. Just think of how many bad decisions had to be made to make such an absurdity actually make sense. Tampa's total payroll is 43 million and they are a much much better team.

[Yankee Tripper]

It would also be nice to not have a 200 million dollar payroll and be "rebuilding". If I hear Cashman or Girardi or any member of the FO say this was a rebuilding year I will go nuts because that is a flat out lie and an excuse for an underachieving team. Its like something out of the Isiah Thomas playbook.

No being the SF Giants would be rock bottom. At least we have a supposed plan for rebuiling the minors and a pipeline of alleged talent to fall back on, the Giants don't even have that. But yeah an under achieving $200M team reminds me of the late 90 Os a team that got old overnight and didn't recover. I'd be more concerned if some of our older underperforming talent was locked up long term but realisitically if everything does go to hell in a hand basket they can cut ties with Abreu, Pettitte, Mussina, Farnsworth, Hawkins, & Giambi at the end of this year and Damon & Matsui at the end of next and make it a "relatively quick" rebuild. Now if A-rod, Jeter, Posada & Mo "older players" with imovable contracts who are locked up for 3+ years each start to look bad, we are in real trouble.

[b_joseph]

Having a 200 million payroll and having to say we are rebuilding is really rock bottom. Just think of how many bad decisions had to be made to make such an absurdity actually make sense. Tampa's total payroll is 43 million and they are a much much better team.

Give us 10 straight draft picks in the top 5 of the draft and we'll have a great cheap team also.

Oh and at the end of the season, their cheap team will be behind ours.

[b_joseph]

Missing the playoffs the year before going into a new ballpark is not an option. The Yankees are big business and rebuilding is not something that is to be associated with them.

Improve and develop on the fly. Just like we have done with Melky, Cano and Wang.

[Chopped Matsui]

Does anyone think the opposite? That, if the Yankees do indeed miss the playoffs, Cashman will be gone faster than you can say "200 million." I don't know, I just have a feeling that if the young pitchers keep struggling and this team plays to a .500 clip or so and misses the playoffs, Hank Steinbrenner is going to go insane and completely take charge. And that is the LAST thing I would ever want to happen.

[wardsp]

Give us 10 straight draft picks in the top 5 of the draft and we'll have a great cheap team also.

Oh and at the end of the season, their cheap team will be behind ours.

200 million dollars should make up for draft picks. Forget the disparity in money even, and we are still a mediocre team. How could Cashman

a) leave us with almost not bench.
b) No lefty pitchers.
c) NO backup plan if the young pitchers struggled mightily.
d) Almost no young position players coming up

[Yankee Tripper]

200 million dollars should make up for draft picks. Forget the disparity in money even, and we are still a mediocre team. How could Cashman

a) leave us with almost not bench.

Well Molina, Betemit, Ducan & Ensberg were supposed to be a much stronger bench then we've had the last 4 years or so. They wevern't supposed to be exposed as full time starters due to A-rod, Po injuries

b) No lefty pitchers.

Which FA lefty was he supposed to sign and what talent in farm system would you have spent to get a lefty? And no unrealistic Eric Ducan for Damaso Marte deals please.

c) NO backup plan if the young pitchers struggled mightily.

Um again what FA were you going to sign? We were supposed to have 6 starters with the kids and Igawa, Rasner, Karsten, Horne was the back up plan.

d) Almost no young position players coming up

They have concentrated on pitching in the draft and rightly so IMO. FA position players are easier to acquire these days than FA pitchers but they do have some young talent in the system just not MLB ready and as always not all prospects, even blue chippers pan out, that's why they are prospects and not MLBers.

[THEBOSS84]

I agree with everything Tripper just said.

[b_joseph]

200 million dollars should make up for draft picks. Forget the disparity in money even, and we are still a mediocre team. How could Cashman

a) leave us with almost not bench.
b) No lefty pitchers.
c) NO backup plan if the young pitchers struggled mightily.
d) Almost no young position players coming up

Money doesnt make up for it at all.

We dont have a bench because our main bench bat isnt healthy...Betemit. And we have 2 starters that are injured. Its kinda hard to have a bench under those circumstances.

Who cares about a lefty. Good pitching is good pitching and our bullpen has been very good this season...on the whole.

What did you expect him to do? Go out and spend 10's of million on a pitcher and say, ''we'll sign you but you'll be in the bullpen if Ike and Hughes pitch well''?? No experienced pitcher would sign on those terms.

Gardner, Miranda, Jackson, Tabata, Curtis....


Gonna stop moaning now?

[b_joseph]

Well said Tripper...beat me to it.

[wardsp]

Money doesnt make up for it at all.

We dont have a bench because our main bench bat isnt healthy...Betemit. And we have 2 starters that are injured. Its kinda hard to have a bench under those circumstances.

Who cares about a lefty. Good pitching is good pitching and our bullpen has been very good this season...on the whole.

What did you expect him to do? Go out and spend 10's of million on a pitcher and say, ''we'll sign you but you'll be in the bullpen if Ike and Hughes pitch well''?? No experienced pitcher would sign on those terms.

Gardner, Miranda, Jackson, Tabata, Curtis....


Gonna stop moaning now?

Moaning? Ok, well, I was respectful in my post. I kind of would like the same in return. This is not a good team as constructed. Put all the conditionals you want on it, and its still not a very good team. Other teams seem to be able to solve their problems with a lot less money. Sure, we don't have the draft picks, but we have the deepest pockets. We should be able to be in some other position than last place with a 200 million payroll.

If you would like to argue that getting two players back will solve all our problems, I accept that and hope you are right.

Don't confuse being frustrated with wanting the team to fail or bashing the team. If you are correct and I am wrong, than all the better.

I think you will find that a lot of people disagree with your assessment.

[Yankee Tripper]

Moaning? Ok, well, I was respectful in my post. I kind of would like the same in return. This is not a good team as constructed. Put all the conditionals you want on it, and its still not a very good team. Other teams seem to be able to solve their problems with a lot less money. Sure, we don't have the draft picks, but we have the deepest pockets. We should be able to be in some other position than last place with a 200 million payroll.

If you would like to argue that getting two players back will solve all our problems, I accept that and hope you are right.

Don't confuse being frustrated with wanting the team to fail or bashing the team. If you are correct and I am wrong, than all the better.

I think you will find that a lot of people disagree with your assessment.

I don't have a problem with the team construction. What was supposed to be done? This is the same lineup that lead the majors in runs scored last year by a good bit and was making the following upgrades to the bench that would indicate that our team should be a lot better than it is now offensively and should be similar to the team that batted .300 after the ASB last year.

A full season of Betemit to replace Cairo
A full season of Molina to replace Nieves
A healthy year from Giambi to replace the collection of (Menketiewitz/Phillis/others) at 1B
Duncan/Ensberg to provide right handed pop off the bench.

The rotation was supposed to be pretty stable with: Wang, Pettitte, Hughes, Mussina, Kennedy and if one of Kennedy/Hughes/Mussina should fail well Joba would replace them mid season and one of the other guys Igawa, Rasner, Karstens, Horne should at least be able to fill in at close to league average for a spell. They had to be better or at least as good as last year right? Well no they haven't even been as good as last year.

The pen was built around power arms, they brought in a few sitiuational lefties that didn't work out but so far the pen has been the least of our worries this year which is a big difference from the last few years when it was Mo and whose gonna get him the ball.

The fact that it hasn't worked due to injuries and underperformance makes for great second guessing though I'll agree with that.

[Bub]

I don't agree with the premise. Once A-Rod and Posada get back, what are we missing to get into a very hot streak?

Good RH leadoff batter.
Good lefty in the pen.

We make the playoffs this year. I'm much less concerned than I was last year at this time, and it has nothing to do with the records.

[teknetic]

I don't agree with the premise. Once A-Rod and Posada get back, what are we missing to get into a very hot streak?

Good RH leadoff batter.
Good lefty in the pen.

We make the playoffs this year. I'm much less concerned than I was last year at this time, and it has nothing to do with the records.

Brett Gardner dies a bit inside everytime Damon pops up to the infield.

[wardsp]

The fact that it hasn't worked due to injuries and underperformance makes for great second guessing though I'll agree with that.

It's more than just underperformance. Here's perhaps a better worded evaluation by bomber999

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http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread...=111316&page=3

I'm sorry, but I think that you are looking at the situation through rose-colored glasses. It is true that ARod and Po's absence has damaged the team offensively, and that the offense will be better when they return. However, the offense wasn't exactly gangbusters prior to those injuries. Essentially, you have a bunch of streaky hitters who are quite underwhelming in terms of situational hitting in general, and poor in the clutch. Even at best, theirs is a highly inconsistent offense, equally capable on a given day of putting up 6 runs or making the most pedestrian of pitchers look like a Cy Young contender.

Giambi, were the Yankees better constructed, would best serve this team as a part-time DH and pinch hitter. He is capable of hitting it out, but not much more. He is, fairly demonstrably, past the point where he can be a consistently productive major league player.

This is not getting a lot of discussion, but our bench once again is abysmal. Yes, we have had key injuries, but other teams have been smarter about crafting deeper benches of solid, competent hitters, so that they have greater depth and greater ability to withstand injuries. In the dynasty years, when Bernie went down, we had Chad Curtis. We also had Strawberry and Raines, even Shane Spencer. I hate to use this example, but the Red Sox have Sean Casey as backup 1B- he is hitting .345, gives veteran leadership, and there is no reason why we can't have such players as well, if our GM showed a little bit of creativity and greater baseball acumen, instead of taking flyers on players dropped from mediocre teams or rolling the dice on unproven rookies expected to play key roles on this team.

Finally, let's face it- we have one top-notch starting pitcher-CMW- who would be a #1 or #2 on a contending/championship team. Pettitte was never dominant in his prime and appears to have lost a step from there. He now appears to have caught Mike Mussina disease, which is pitching just well enough to lose. Even though he is considered our #2 starter, he is not nearly as good as our top competitors' #2, and it shows- he is consistently getting outpitched. Mussina and Rasner have been nice surprises thus far, but neither can be counted on to pitch on their current level for an entire season. They are in the Chacon/Small/Al Leiter's first start against Boston category. The fact that we have a team that has a payroll of over $200 million and has ONE consistently reliable starting pitcher is inexcusable. We have three good pitchers in total- CMW, Mo, Joba. I am not ready to anoint Hughes and Kennedy as anything other than prospects (who thus far have underwhelmed, to say the least) until they show me evidence to the contrary.

This is a little more nebulous, admittedly, but it seems to me that, since around 2003, the Yankees have been a team with a collective glass jaw (often in key games), becoming progressively pulseless. A major shakeup might actually help this franchise considerably in the long-term.

The verdict: mediocre team, poorly constructed.

[4bronxbombers]

You know, this is EXACTLY how I felt this time last year yet we ended up making the playoffs.

I completely understand your POV.

If we are not gonna make the playoffs, I would prefer that our team be atleast 10 games back at the trading deadline so we can really wheel and deal.

Also, if we were to have a bottom 15 record we would not lose our first round pick when signing Tex or CC, which is a major bonus.

I said the same thing to Jason today. If we are doing poorly around trade time thing will happen. If not, things are complacent and not much will be done. IMO things need to get done with this current team.

[yanksphan]

Yea exactly, and we ended up getting knocked out in the playoffs by a team with better pitchers. And course since we made the playoffs, the season wasn't a disaster and the front office didn't make major changes. Torre was going to be let go either way so that doesn't count.

Torre wasn't let go. He was asked to come back.

HE chose not to come back.

[b_joseph]

I don't agree with the premise. Once A-Rod and Posada get back, what are we missing to get into a very hot streak?

Good RH leadoff batter.
Good lefty in the pen.

We make the playoffs this year. I'm much less concerned than I was last year at this time, and it has nothing to do with the records.

No need for the RH lead off guy...Damon will eventually start hitting lefties.

IMO, Leftie relievers in the pen have always been a luxary.


Its going to be a lot of fun bringing up these threads 3 months from now. It reminds me of all the people who thought the Rangers should have traded Jagr at the deadline.
Or the folks ( myself included ) who gave up on Eli Manning and the Giants.