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  1. #1
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    need a primer on fielding statistics

    anyone got something that is along the lines of "Fielding Statistics in 2008, for dumies"?

  2. #2
    First Name: Keninovich hardrain's Avatar
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    Re: need a primer on fielding statistics

    get The Fielding Bible by John Dewan from amazon.
    We toast to the old days and DiMaggio too,
    Billy Martin and Mantle, Whitey Ford and to you

  3. #3
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    Re: need a primer on fielding statistics

    was hoping for something online

    my boss is callin a one on one meeting with me tomorrow to discuss derek jeter's fielding

    i think he's a bit cross with me because i support that jeter is a substandard fielder..

  4. #4
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: need a primer on fielding statistics

    try www.fieldingbible.com

    look at the article comparing Jeter & Everett.

  5. #5
    First Name: Keninovich hardrain's Avatar
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    Re: need a primer on fielding statistics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper
    try www.fieldingbible.com

    look at the article comparing Jeter & Everett.
    That's a good one, but James is uncharacteristically kind to Jeter in that piece, IMO...

    pretty much every single study shows he is the worst fielding SS, why is it so hard to convince people of the obvious?
    We toast to the old days and DiMaggio too,
    Billy Martin and Mantle, Whitey Ford and to you

  6. #6
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    Re: need a primer on fielding statistics

    Quote Originally Posted by hardrain
    That's a good one, but James is uncharacteristically kind to Jeter in that piece, IMO...

    pretty much every single study shows he is the worst fielding SS, why is it so hard to convince people of the obvious?
    Because he's Derek Jeter.

    Who ya gonna believe, your vague impressions of a guy with 4 WS rigns, 2 GG and known for making "clutch" fielding plays at big times (the flip or slide Giambi, slide, the catch in the stands v Boston, etc.) the signature "jump throw from deep in the hole. Or reams and reams of statistical data complied by breaking down every play in MLB over a long period of time?

  7. #7
    Call now. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: need a primer on fielding statistics

    Quote Originally Posted by hardrain
    That's a good one, but James is uncharacteristically kind to Jeter in that piece, IMO...

    pretty much every single study shows he is the worst fielding SS, why is it so hard to convince people of the obvious?
    I think it's because a lot of people, myself included, are more skeptical of defensive stats than offensive ones, since there are so many more variables defensively that aren't necessarily accounted for in a lot defensive statistics.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    RIP, Pete.

  8. #8
    First Name: Keninovich hardrain's Avatar
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    Re: need a primer on fielding statistics

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi
    I think it's because a lot of people, myself included, are more skeptical of defensive stats than offensive ones, since there are so many more variables defensively that aren't necessarily accounted for in a lot defensive statistics.
    I do agree with the basic premise that Defensive metrics are cloudier than offensive metrcis. However, in the case of Jeter, every single study shouts out the same warning...and it seems abundantly clear that he is lacking in range.
    We toast to the old days and DiMaggio too,
    Billy Martin and Mantle, Whitey Ford and to you

  9. #9
    Call now. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: need a primer on fielding statistics

    Quote Originally Posted by hardrain
    I do agree with the basic premise that Defensive metrics are cloudier than offensive metrcis. However, in the case of Jeter, every single study shouts out the same warning...and it seems abundantly clear that he is lacking in range.
    It just always confuses me when people point to defensive stats that say that Jeter is poor, since they believe Jeter is poor, but then they say that Melky Cabrera is excellent defensively even though the Fielding Bible, which you suggested earlier, listed Melky as the 2nd worst CF in all of baseball in 2007 at -22:

    http://www.billjamesonline.net/field...eaders1-07.gif

    I am not saying that Jeter is a great, or even a good defender, because I don't think he is. I'm just saying that I think it's some of these contradictions in fielding stats that make people skeptical of them. Let me give another quick example. In the 2007 Fielding Bible, not one player who was the best at his position in 2006 was still the best in 2007. The Gold Gloves are worthless in large part because people seem to win year after year no matter how bad they are, but it doesn't seem realistic to me that not one player was the best at his position in both 2006 and 2007.

    Like I said, I think that all of the factors that go into fielding makes it very, very difficult to create good statistical formulas for it, as opposed to hitting. The fact that every stat has Jeter as bad makes it something that everyone should take a close look at, and visually it does seem like he is terrible going to his left, but I also think that is it feasible that there's something going on that's skewing the data, because it doesn't seem right to me that he's nearly twice as bad as just about every other SS.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    RIP, Pete.

  10. #10
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    Re: need a primer on fielding statistics

    after reading the link above more carefully, my boss and I find it very hard to take it seriously.

    4 things jump out at me:
    1) The judgement of how hard a ball was hit and what vector it was hit in is a human judgement based on observation. It's not measured, and quantified, no one's setting a standard of miles per hour in terms of how hard, or putting a graph overlaying video tape deciding what vector it's in.. they're just making a gut call.
    2) The judgement of what a shortstop should or shouldn't get to is also a human judgement call. They didn't ask former baseball players what a shortstop should or shouldn't get to, they decided what and where a hit vs a play should have happened. Again.. seems a bit iffy, especially since there are so many other factors involved such as a man on first base, bunt situations, shifts, ect.
    3) They note the number of balls that fall between jeter and the "left fielder". They dont however, in what i've read here, seem to factor park into it at all. In Houston the left field porch is pretty short from what i hear (my boss is actually from huston, and has gone to many games there, i'll take his word). Wouldn't that mean that fewer balls would land between Everett and his LF than would Jeter and Matsui, since simply by park definitions Jeter and Matsui have to play further apart in many situations?
    4) They refer to Matsui as "the ugly asian left fielder". Come on.. how can we take this seriously?

  11. #11
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    Re: need a primer on fielding statistics

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi
    . Let me give another quick example. In the 2007 Fielding Bible, not one player who was the best at his position in 2006 was still the best in 2007. The Gold Gloves are worthless in large part because people seem to win year after year no matter how bad they are, but it doesn't seem realistic to me that not one player was the best at his position in both 2006 and 2007. .
    I think this is actually in their favor. Players are not machines. They're not going to be exactly the same year to year. You're not measuring who's the tallest.

    How often does a player have the highest batting average 2 years in a row? Even on his own team?

  12. #12
    Junior Birdman YASS's Avatar
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    Re: need a primer on fielding statistics

    Quote Originally Posted by Bozidar
    after reading the link above more carefully, my boss and I find it very hard to take it seriously.

    4 things jump out at me:
    1) The judgement of how hard a ball was hit and what vector it was hit in is a human judgement based on observation. It's not measured, and quantified, no one's setting a standard of miles per hour in terms of how hard, or putting a graph overlaying video tape deciding what vector it's in.. they're just making a gut call. 2) The judgement of what a shortstop should or shouldn't get to is also a human judgement call. They didn't ask former baseball players what a shortstop should or shouldn't get to, they decided what and where a hit vs a play should have happened. Again.. seems a bit iffy, especially since there are so many other factors involved such as a man on first base, bunt situations, shifts, ect.
    3) They note the number of balls that fall between jeter and the "left fielder". They dont however, in what i've read here, seem to factor park into it at all. In Houston the left field porch is pretty short from what i hear (my boss is actually from huston, and has gone to many games there, i'll take his word). Wouldn't that mean that fewer balls would land between Everett and his LF than would Jeter and Matsui, since simply by park definitions Jeter and Matsui have to play further apart in many situations?
    4) They refer to Matsui as "the ugly asian left fielder". Come on.. how can we take this seriously?
    This is also a big problem in the characterization of a batted ball as either a fly ball or a line drive. Where's the dividing line?
    Watch this space for a pithy new signature, now under construction!

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