The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

[Yankees1962]

Because the Yankees can't trade Swisher?

If you meant Melky as a substitute for Swisher, my answer would be: because there's no evidence that Melky is a legitimate major-league baseball player.

I disagree about the legitimate ML baseball player part. However, I'm not saying he's a replacement for Swisher.

[JL25and3]

I disagree about the legitimate ML baseball player part. However, I'm not saying he's a replacement for Swisher.

What evidence is there? Before he started juicing, he had played his way out of MLB. Unless you think he just started taking steroids the day before he tested positive...

[Art Vanderlay]

What evidence is there? Before he started juicing, he had played his way out of MLB. Unless you think he just started taking steroids the day before he tested positive...

I think he was a 4th or 5th outfielder type who transformed himself into an all-star by taking PEDs.

[Yankees1962]

What evidence is there? Before he started juicing, he had played his way out of MLB. Unless you think he just started taking steroids the day before he tested positive...

You don't even know when he started juicing?

[JL25and3]

I think he was a 4th or 5th outfielder type who transformed himself into an all-star by taking PEDs.

Not with the Braves he wasn't.

You don't even know when he started juicing?

Of course not. But since I know he did start juicing, I have every reason to look askance at his sudden resurgence with the Royals after having been released by the Braves. I don't see any reason to take that seriously as evidence that he can play without PEDs.

[Yankees1962]

Not with the Braves he wasn't.


Of course not. But since I know he did start juicing, I have every reason to look askance at his sudden resurgence with the Royals after having been released by the Braves. I don't see any reason to take that seriously as evidence that he can play without PEDs.

You can take it anyway you want, but I think he's still a major league player whether as a 4th outfielder or not. By the way, I think juicing for younger players is overrated.

[JL25and3]

You can take it anyway you want, but I think he's still a major league player whether as a 4th outfielder or not. By the way, I think juicing for younger players is overrated.

Certainly you're free to think so. There's just no evidence of it.

[Yankees1962]

Certainly you're free to think so. There's just no evidence of it.

To me there is evidence, but have it your own way pal.

[awy]

roids wasn't the reason he started taking roids and working on his game. he got motivated and THEN the roids happened, the motivation is the deciding factor.

dude was legitimately fat on the braves.

the benefit of roids also stays there at least for younger players

[JL25and3]

To me there is evidence, but have it your own way pal.

I'm not your pal and don't be condescending, please.

[JL25and3]

roids wasn't the reason he started taking roids and working on his game. he got motivated and THEN the roids happened, the motivation is the deciding factor.

dude was legitimately fat on the braves.

the benefit of roids also stays there at least for younger players

Or maybe not, we really don't know. I wouldn't expect anything from him until I saw him play when I knew he was roid-free.

[Yankees1962]

I'm not your pal and don't be condescending, please.

I'm heartbroken.

[awy]

Or maybe not, we really don't know. I wouldn't expect anything from him until I saw him play when I knew he was roid-free.

do you seriously dispute the fact that his gain in motivation is a key marker in his performance.

[JL25and3]

do you seriously dispute the fact that his gain in motivation is a key marker in his performance.

I don't know how much difference it would have made without the PEDs.

[awy]

historic analysis of ped vs performance would point you to a direction contrary to your mythological understanding of roids

[JL25and3]

historic analysis of ped vs performance would point you to a direction contrary to your mythological understanding of roids

I have no idea what that means.

Nothing mythological about my understanding about roids. In this case, I think Melky's juicing has a clearer causal relationship to his performance than his motivation does.

[Art Vanderlay]

historic analysis of ped vs performance would point you to a direction contrary to your mythological understanding of roids

ESPN recently had a story about a career minor league pitcher (the name slips my mind) whose fastball topped out in the high 80's. He was plenty motivated but simply lacked the talent. As a last resort he started taking PEDs and gained 5MPH on his fastball. That got him a 5 year major league career that he would not have had without PEDs. I never bought the narrative that Melky's dramatic performance improvement was due to "motivation" and "not partying as much". I always suspected PEDs and unfortunately that opinion was validated. So while it helps to be motivated, the reality is Melky was cheating.

[RenoHightower]

I don't buy that Melky went from out of baseball to an MVP candidate exclusively because of PEDs. I'm sure that they helped, but it's not unreasonable that he did start working harder as well. I don't think that there's any drug that, on its own, will turn a guy from an 83 OPS+ hitter into a 158 OPS+ hitter.

[awy]

the point is that the roids doesn't add that much to his talent, and even if it did, the effects will stay in the form of muscles gained.

[Art Vanderlay]

I don't buy that Melky went from out of baseball to an MVP candidate exclusively because of PEDs. I'm sure that they helped, but it's not unreasonable that he did start working harder as well. I don't think that there's any drug that, on its own, will turn a guy from an 83 OPS+ hitter into a 158 OPS+ hitter.

Pre steriod era I wonder how many players in their age 28 season improved from an 83 OPS+ hitter to a 158 OPS+? I know the moneyball crowd led by Bill James is working overtime to down play the benefit of PEDs, but I'm not buying it. I think its all related to their foolish narrative that batting average, stealing bases, moving runners, and making contact, etc. is not important. Pre Steriod era those skill sets were important and moving forward they will increase in importance as the game is cleaned up.

[JL25and3]

I don't buy that Melky went from out of baseball to an MVP candidate exclusively because of PEDs. I'm sure that they helped, but it's not unreasonable that he did start working harder as well. I don't think that there's any drug that, on its own, will turn a guy from an 83 OPS+ hitter into a 158 OPS+ hitter.

It may well not have been exclusively PEDs, but that doesn't mean that motivation alone would have been sufficient, either. I'm not sure I can point to any cases where motivation alone has turned a guy from an 83 OPS+ hitter into a 158 OPS+ hitter, either.

[awy]

he is not as bad as 83 ops+, and he'll keep his gained performance from drawgs

[RenoHightower]

It may well not have been exclusively PEDs, but that doesn't mean that motivation alone would have been sufficient, either. I'm not sure I can point to any cases where motivation alone has turned a guy from an 83 OPS+ hitter into a 158 OPS+ hitter, either.

As I said, I'm sure they helped. Furthermoe, I don't anticipate Cabrera ever hitting at that level again, with or without PEDs. I just don't think it's impossible that working harder/maturity/natural development might have also contributed to his improvement.

[False1]

do you seriously dispute the fact that his gain in motivation is a key marker in his performance.

With NYY/ATL, when I think all agree he was not on steroids, in 2400 AB he put up .267 / .328 / .379.

Suddenly at age 26 he starts PEDs and goes .322 / .360 / .489 over his next 1200 AB.

I feel pretty confident that while I'm sure he worked harder the drugs were the key difference. If all it took was folks with a strong talent base to get motivated PEDs wouldn't be so rampant.

Whats with the roids PR campaign? Did you hand out BALCO syringes to trick-or-treaters last night?

[RenoHightower]

With NYY/ATL, when I think all agree he was not on steroids, in 2400 AB he put up .267 / .328 / .379.

Suddenly at age 26 he starts PEDs and goes .322 / .360 / .489 over his next 1200 AB.

I feel pretty confident that while I'm sure he worked harder the drugs were the key difference. If all it took was folks with a strong talent base to get motivated PEDs wouldn't be so rampant.

Whats with the roids PR campaign? Did you hand out BALCO syringes to trick-or-treaters last night?

If all it took to go from "not a professional baseball player" to "one of the very best hitters in the league" was PEDs, they'd be a hell of a lot more rampant. If I started juicing, could I turn myself into a major leaguer?

No one is saying that hard work turned him into a great player all by itself, but the fact is that he did start working out more and his coaches were lauding his improved effort and training. I just don't think that there is a drug that, all by itself, can account for the improvement in Melky's performance. If there were, guys like Ozzie Canseco probably would have been a lot better.