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  1. #1451

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Because the Yankees can't trade Swisher?

    If you meant Melky as a substitute for Swisher, my answer would be: because there's no evidence that Melky is a legitimate major-league baseball player.
    I disagree about the legitimate ML baseball player part. However, I'm not saying he's a replacement for Swisher.
    Please fire Cashman, so some Yankee fans can have hope again.

  2. #1452
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    I disagree about the legitimate ML baseball player part. However, I'm not saying he's a replacement for Swisher.
    What evidence is there? Before he started juicing, he had played his way out of MLB. Unless you think he just started taking steroids the day before he tested positive...
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  3. #1453

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    What evidence is there? Before he started juicing, he had played his way out of MLB. Unless you think he just started taking steroids the day before he tested positive...
    I think he was a 4th or 5th outfielder type who transformed himself into an all-star by taking PEDs.

  4. #1454

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    What evidence is there? Before he started juicing, he had played his way out of MLB. Unless you think he just started taking steroids the day before he tested positive...
    You don't even know when he started juicing?
    Please fire Cashman, so some Yankee fans can have hope again.

  5. #1455
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    I think he was a 4th or 5th outfielder type who transformed himself into an all-star by taking PEDs.
    Not with the Braves he wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    You don't even know when he started juicing?
    Of course not. But since I know he did start juicing, I have every reason to look askance at his sudden resurgence with the Royals after having been released by the Braves. I don't see any reason to take that seriously as evidence that he can play without PEDs.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  6. #1456

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Not with the Braves he wasn't.


    Of course not. But since I know he did start juicing, I have every reason to look askance at his sudden resurgence with the Royals after having been released by the Braves. I don't see any reason to take that seriously as evidence that he can play without PEDs.
    You can take it anyway you want, but I think he's still a major league player whether as a 4th outfielder or not. By the way, I think juicing for younger players is overrated.
    Please fire Cashman, so some Yankee fans can have hope again.

  7. #1457
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    You can take it anyway you want, but I think he's still a major league player whether as a 4th outfielder or not. By the way, I think juicing for younger players is overrated.
    Certainly you're free to think so. There's just no evidence of it.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  8. #1458

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Certainly you're free to think so. There's just no evidence of it.
    To me there is evidence, but have it your own way pal.
    Please fire Cashman, so some Yankee fans can have hope again.

  9. #1459

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    roids wasn't the reason he started taking roids and working on his game. he got motivated and THEN the roids happened, the motivation is the deciding factor.

    dude was legitimately fat on the braves.

    the benefit of roids also stays there at least for younger players
    always reasonable

  10. #1460
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    To me there is evidence, but have it your own way pal.
    I'm not your pal and don't be condescending, please.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  11. #1461
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    roids wasn't the reason he started taking roids and working on his game. he got motivated and THEN the roids happened, the motivation is the deciding factor.

    dude was legitimately fat on the braves.

    the benefit of roids also stays there at least for younger players
    Or maybe not, we really don't know. I wouldn't expect anything from him until I saw him play when I knew he was roid-free.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  12. #1462

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I'm not your pal and don't be condescending, please.
    I'm heartbroken.
    Please fire Cashman, so some Yankee fans can have hope again.

  13. #1463

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Or maybe not, we really don't know. I wouldn't expect anything from him until I saw him play when I knew he was roid-free.
    do you seriously dispute the fact that his gain in motivation is a key marker in his performance.
    always reasonable

  14. #1464
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    do you seriously dispute the fact that his gain in motivation is a key marker in his performance.
    I don't know how much difference it would have made without the PEDs.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  15. #1465

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    historic analysis of ped vs performance would point you to a direction contrary to your mythological understanding of roids
    always reasonable

  16. #1466
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    historic analysis of ped vs performance would point you to a direction contrary to your mythological understanding of roids
    I have no idea what that means.

    Nothing mythological about my understanding about roids. In this case, I think Melky's juicing has a clearer causal relationship to his performance than his motivation does.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  17. #1467

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    historic analysis of ped vs performance would point you to a direction contrary to your mythological understanding of roids
    ESPN recently had a story about a career minor league pitcher (the name slips my mind) whose fastball topped out in the high 80's. He was plenty motivated but simply lacked the talent. As a last resort he started taking PEDs and gained 5MPH on his fastball. That got him a 5 year major league career that he would not have had without PEDs. I never bought the narrative that Melky's dramatic performance improvement was due to "motivation" and "not partying as much". I always suspected PEDs and unfortunately that opinion was validated. So while it helps to be motivated, the reality is Melky was cheating.

  18. #1468

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    I don't buy that Melky went from out of baseball to an MVP candidate exclusively because of PEDs. I'm sure that they helped, but it's not unreasonable that he did start working harder as well. I don't think that there's any drug that, on its own, will turn a guy from an 83 OPS+ hitter into a 158 OPS+ hitter.

  19. #1469

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    the point is that the roids doesn't add that much to his talent, and even if it did, the effects will stay in the form of muscles gained.
    always reasonable

  20. #1470

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    I don't buy that Melky went from out of baseball to an MVP candidate exclusively because of PEDs. I'm sure that they helped, but it's not unreasonable that he did start working harder as well. I don't think that there's any drug that, on its own, will turn a guy from an 83 OPS+ hitter into a 158 OPS+ hitter.
    Pre steriod era I wonder how many players in their age 28 season improved from an 83 OPS+ hitter to a 158 OPS+? I know the moneyball crowd led by Bill James is working overtime to down play the benefit of PEDs, but I'm not buying it. I think its all related to their foolish narrative that batting average, stealing bases, moving runners, and making contact, etc. is not important. Pre Steriod era those skill sets were important and moving forward they will increase in importance as the game is cleaned up.

  21. #1471
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    I don't buy that Melky went from out of baseball to an MVP candidate exclusively because of PEDs. I'm sure that they helped, but it's not unreasonable that he did start working harder as well. I don't think that there's any drug that, on its own, will turn a guy from an 83 OPS+ hitter into a 158 OPS+ hitter.
    It may well not have been exclusively PEDs, but that doesn't mean that motivation alone would have been sufficient, either. I'm not sure I can point to any cases where motivation alone has turned a guy from an 83 OPS+ hitter into a 158 OPS+ hitter, either.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  22. #1472

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    he is not as bad as 83 ops+, and he'll keep his gained performance from drawgs
    always reasonable

  23. #1473

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    It may well not have been exclusively PEDs, but that doesn't mean that motivation alone would have been sufficient, either. I'm not sure I can point to any cases where motivation alone has turned a guy from an 83 OPS+ hitter into a 158 OPS+ hitter, either.
    As I said, I'm sure they helped. Furthermoe, I don't anticipate Cabrera ever hitting at that level again, with or without PEDs. I just don't think it's impossible that working harder/maturity/natural development might have also contributed to his improvement.

  24. #1474
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    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    do you seriously dispute the fact that his gain in motivation is a key marker in his performance.
    With NYY/ATL, when I think all agree he was not on steroids, in 2400 AB he put up .267 / .328 / .379.

    Suddenly at age 26 he starts PEDs and goes .322 / .360 / .489 over his next 1200 AB.

    I feel pretty confident that while I'm sure he worked harder the drugs were the key difference. If all it took was folks with a strong talent base to get motivated PEDs wouldn't be so rampant.

    Whats with the roids PR campaign? Did you hand out BALCO syringes to trick-or-treaters last night?

  25. #1475

    Re: The Former Yankee Performance Thread v4.0

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    With NYY/ATL, when I think all agree he was not on steroids, in 2400 AB he put up .267 / .328 / .379.

    Suddenly at age 26 he starts PEDs and goes .322 / .360 / .489 over his next 1200 AB.

    I feel pretty confident that while I'm sure he worked harder the drugs were the key difference. If all it took was folks with a strong talent base to get motivated PEDs wouldn't be so rampant.

    Whats with the roids PR campaign? Did you hand out BALCO syringes to trick-or-treaters last night?
    If all it took to go from "not a professional baseball player" to "one of the very best hitters in the league" was PEDs, they'd be a hell of a lot more rampant. If I started juicing, could I turn myself into a major leaguer?

    No one is saying that hard work turned him into a great player all by itself, but the fact is that he did start working out more and his coaches were lauding his improved effort and training. I just don't think that there is a drug that, all by itself, can account for the improvement in Melky's performance. If there were, guys like Ozzie Canseco probably would have been a lot better.

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