Revamp the Yanks Plan

[ppa79]

answer the question dude... when did you start following this team? cuz it damn sure sounds to me like you caught on w/this team around the '96 season. stop trying so hard to make yourself look witty on a message board. it doesn't do anything for u.

Maybe someone needs to stop trying to hard to sound inteligent.

Hughes & Wang for Santana
Signing Hunter to a big multiyear deal
Trading Damon for Crede

The funny thing is that you actually think these trades are good.

[ajra21]

1 through 3 are not good moves. there are so many reasons why.

[Yankeesfan811]

1,2, and 3 are awful moves IMO.

i definately agree.

1. Wang is not as good as Santana, but he is a very very good #2 starter. And Phil Hughes projects to be a great #1 or #2 starter in the future. there is NO WAY I would make that trade.

2. We already have 4 outfielders......

3. Damon for Crede is probably the dumbest idea ever. (no offense) Crede is crippled, and Johnny damon is just a much better player and a true leadoff hitter.


and I don't like the fact that we are just letting moose rot......

[yanksphan]

Maybe someone needs to stop trying to hard to sound inteligent.

Hughes & Wang for Santana
Signing Hunter to a big multiyear deal
Trading Damon for Crede

The funny thing is that you actually think these trades are good.

Not to mention vaporizing Moose into thin air.

[TMS]

Well....that's kind of the point - what are the Yankees going to do with him in your first scenario? I doubt they're just going to release him.....

When you come up with possible scenarios, it's best to consider how it affects the entire roster. For example - you wouldn't just plug Jack Wilson into the SS position without explaining what happened to Jeter....

the first scenario isn't anything i devised. It's the current situation we are looking at right now. Moose's place in the rotation next season is anyone's guess at this point. if anything my trade opens up a spot for him to get some starts next season & offer him a chance to earn the salary he's making.

[TMS]

Hughes is 21, has a higher ceiling, and is dirt cheap for at least three more years. He's more of a risk to maybe not reach that ceiling, but he's exactly the type of pitcher, should Minnesota even want a pitcher in this deal, they'd take.

And I say should they even want a pitcher, because unlike you, I actually realize it's not always about what the Yankees can offer or want to offer, but what the other team wants/needs. The Twins consider developing their own pitching an organizational strength and everyone connected to their FO has talked about needing positional help. They'll take a Hughes as part of a deal, but they're not so incompetent that they're going to trade maybe their only chip and not fill their biggest need at all with it.

If you actually thought things out and could support your arguments with substance, you wouldn't get so much ................ here, honestly.

first of all, don't give me any ...... if you don't want to respond w/out an insult. no one comes here to be flamed by the idiot frat boy inner circle, i don't care who they are.

second, if the Twins were to trade Santana, they'd have a need to replace him in the starting rotation. Hughes is highly touted & Wang has proven he can get W's in the AL. just where do you think the Twins will be able to get a much better package than that? do you see the Red Sox trading Ellsbury, Pedroia & Lester for Johan? i certainly don't.

[yanksphan]

the first scenario isn't anything i devised. It's the current situation we are looking at right now. Moose's place in the rotation next season is anyone's guess at this point. if anything my trade opens up a spot for him to get some starts next season & offer him a chance to earn the salary he's making.

If he's on the team - he's in the rotation. Meaning you should include him in the comparisons you made.

Igawa also needs to be included somewhere in the mix. These contracts can't just be absorbed, the Yankees are expecting some return - be it in pinstripes or via trade.

When you have guys like Moose earning a bunch of dough in the rotation, it makes the Yankees have to think carefully about trading Wang. Trading away two cost controlled guys for someone who will command $20+/year makes very little sense no matter who the $20+ guy is.

[TMS]

ppa79, still waiting on your answer bro. when did you start following this team? i'm curious.

[TMS]

If he's on the team - he's in the rotation. Meaning you should include him in the comparisons you made.

Igawa also needs to be included somewhere in the mix. These contracts can't just be absorbed, the Yankees are expecting some return - be it in pinstripes or via trade.

When you have guys like Moose earning a bunch of dough in the rotation, it makes the Yankees have to think carefully about trading Wang. Trading away two cost controlled guys for someone who will command $20+/year makes very little sense no matter who the $20+ guy is.

we have freed up a ton of cash w/ARod's opt out. it's reasonable to think the Yankees will make a big push to go after Johan if he's made available in the trade market.

you honestly think the Yankees will not go after Johan Santana because they have Moose & Igawa on the roster w/o a rotation slot going into next season?

[yanksphan]

we have freed up a ton of cash w/ARod's opt out. it's reasonable to think the Yankees will make a big push to go after Johan if he's made available in the trade market.

you honestly think the Yankees will not go after Johan Santana because they have Moose & Igawa on the roster w/o a rotation slot going into next season?

I think they'll make a play if it's cost effective. Trading away two cost controlled plus pitchers for a $20+ guy is not when you've got guys who you seem to think they're just going to ignore.

You keep asking when others started watching the Yankees, yet you sound like someone who forgot what the 80's & early 90's were all about!

[teknetic]

exactly. why is that a bad plan in your eyes? what is Hughes exactly? does anyone know at this point? the kid's got a nice upside & showed some nice signs to end the season, but we're talking about Johan Santana here. the Yankees will be willing to pay that extension for Santana in a heartbeat, as would a host of other teams out there looking to add a HOF calibre ace in his prime, so why get into a bidding war if you can get him now if he agrees to sign a longterm extension? he could easily make the difference in a postseason short series.

and not at the cost of their best starter and a guy who has the potential to be as good if not better. 1+1

[dkman]

While I didn't like the first couple of moves, you really lost me when you said we should move to a National League Style of play, the kind where you give away free outs.

[sahara]

first of all, don't give me any ...... if you don't want to respond w/out an insult. no one comes here to be flamed by the idiot frat boy inner circle, i don't care who they are.

second, if the Twins were to trade Santana, they'd have a need to replace him in the starting rotation. Hughes is highly touted & Wang has proven he can get W's in the AL. just where do you think the Twins will be able to get a much better package than that? do you see the Red Sox trading Ellsbury, Pedroia & Lester for Johan? i certainly don't.

I'm not a member of any idiot frat boy circle, trust me.

Let's try this again. In three parts.

Part one.

The Twins consider developing their own pitching an organizational strength and they're getting Liriano back next year, leaving him open to very well slot in for Santana.

The Twins FO has openly talked about needing positional help this offseason.

Assuming the Twins fail to re-sign Johan, after making an attempt like they've been reported to be about to do, he becomes their biggest and maybe only chip this offseason to fill their needs, as they obviously aren't going to be big spenders on the FA market.

Therefore when the Twins trade Johan, what do you think they're going to trade him for? Something they openly admit to needing? Or something they think they already have or can produce on their own?

Part Two.

Chien Ming Wang can win 19 games pitching with the Yankees' offense he has had and pitching frequently in Yankee Stadium.

The Twins don't play frequently in Yankee Stadium and don't have the offense the Yankees have had.

Chien Ming Wang is not even remotely close to being the same pitcher outside of Yankee Stadium that he is in.

The Twins may play 158 games outside of Yankee Stadium.

Chien Ming Wang is a GB pitcher, who, logically, obviously has issues with turf.

The Twins aren't moving off of turf until 2009.

Chien Ming Wang is about to hit arbitration and get paid millions for those 19 wins, regardless of any of that.

The Twins are a small market team with a stingy owner.

Chien Ming Wang, while a good pitcher, is never going to be an ace and someone who could sniff Santana.

Someone like a Hughes or a Buchholz or a Chamberlain may someday, even though that type is all a much bigger risk to take. They're also dirt cheap for years.

Part Three.

Lester =/= Hughes.

If the Red Sox want Santana, they may have to part with that type of deal. Just like the Yankees would have to part with Cano (which would be more idiotic than Wang + Hughes).

Someone like the Dodgers could offer up Kemp + LaRoche + whatever and give the Twins pretty much exactly what they need.

[TMS]

I think they'll make a play if it's cost effective. Trading away two cost controlled plus pitchers for a $20+ guy is not when you've got guys who you seem to think they're just going to ignore.

You keep asking when others started watching the Yankees, yet you sound like someone who forgot what the 80's & early 90's were all about!

dude, the situation already entails the Yankees having Moose & Igawa as superflous members of this pitching staff... what is all this with me thinking they're just going to ignore those guys... who do you think makes the rotation right now (forget the trade ideas i just made, let's deal w/the situation as it stands now).

we have Wang, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, Moose, Igawa & maybe Andy P going into the 2008 season. so who do YOU think the Yankees are going to have in the starting 5 man rotation & who do you think the Yankees are going to "ignore"?

[TMS]

While I didn't like the first couple of moves, you really lost me when you said we should move to a National League Style of play, the kind where you give away free outs.

no, i'm referring to the style of play that helped us win 4 championships under Torre & Zim before the Yankees tried to bring in big boppers like Jason Giambi & ARod & thought they'd solve all of the other deficiencies on the roster by pounding other teams into submission. as we've seen over the past years, that strategy doesn't work in the playoffs. it's all about pitching, defense & getting timely hits.

[Giambi25HRFan]

Wang + Hughes > Santana

Why would you make that trade?

[R.V.47]

no, i'm referring to the style of play that helped us win 4 championships under Torre & Zim before the Yankees tried to bring in big boppers like Jason Giambi & ARod & thought they'd solve all of the other deficiencies on the roster by pounding other teams into submission. as we've seen over the past years, that strategy doesn't work in the playoffs. it's all about pitching, defense & getting timely hits.

I think the hiring of Girardi is the first signal that the orginization is dedicated to getting back to that style of play. I think the lineup will almost be forced to play that style of baseball next year without any real big time home run threats in the lineup which is not a bad thing.

[TMS]

btw, for the record i've been an avid fan of this team since '76... they weren't nearly as bad throughout the 80's as some of you seem to think they were, unless of course you're of the mentality that 2 sub .500 seasons in the span of 10 years is disgraceful. i remember plenty well what the 80's & 90's were all about. unless you happen to equate Johan Santana to Ed Whitson, i have no idea where you're drawing the parallels here.

[TMS]

Wang + Hughes > Santana

Why would you make that trade?

i don't agree w/that obviously... i'd rather have the frontline ace starter who's proven & in his prime over a kid who we don't know if he'll ever reach that level ever & another who we know is not.

if you disagree, i don't have a problem with it.

[TMS]

I think the hiring of Girardi is the first signal that the orginization is dedicated to getting back to that style of play. I think the lineup will almost be forced to play that style of baseball next year without any real big time home run threats in the lineup which is not a bad thing.

that's why i think the plan would be beneficial for this team going forward. think about what we had in the 90s when we won those championships. we had probably the best starting staff in baseball mixed w/a good blend of youth & vets that were well balanced, got timely hits, & played very solid defense & of course our stellar bullpen that had no par in this league. i think the plan addresses all of that as best as possible without mortgaging the future for old vets that are past their prime like Ken Phelps & Jesse Barfield the way this team operated in the 80s when these people who are spouting off about how this team was run back then are pretending like they have a clue about.

[In Mo I Trust]

no, i'm referring to the style of play that helped us win 4 championships under Torre & Zim before the Yankees tried to bring in big boppers like Jason Giambi & ARod & thought they'd solve all of the other deficiencies on the roster by pounding other teams into submission. as we've seen over the past years, that strategy doesn't work in the playoffs. it's all about pitching, defense & getting timely hits.

That strategy has worked pretty well for the Red Sox.

[Tifoso]

That strategy has worked pretty well for the Red Sox.

Their starting pitching says hi.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

I think we should trade Wang, Hughes and Chamberlain for Santana. I say just make it a little extra sweet for the Twins

[Zimmers' Helmet]

Their starting pitching says hi.

Ya beat me to it

[TMS]

That strategy has worked pretty well for the Red Sox.

The Red Sox won because they had a frontline ace like Josh Beckett dominating teams in the postseason along w/a solid bullpen & guys getting timely hits like Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lowell, etc. along w/playing stellar defense. Ortiz & Manny didn't carry that team to their championships, the other factors did.