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  1. #276
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    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome
    Crede is a poor excuse for a Yankee third baseman. He is marginally better than Betemit who IMHO totally sucks and should be in the Yankees AA farm system

    Giambi is finished

    Trading two of the Yankees top future pitchers for Santana is nuts. Wait awhile, if you really want Santana, he will be on the market for far less. Nonetheless our prospects are worth far more to us in the long term than Santana, IMHO.

    Betemit had never played 1B before last year. He can't field 1B and he can't hit. What is the love affair for him and Crede all about. I don't understand it. Both are minor league players at best. Duncan and Phillips are far, far better.
    Your points 3,4,and 5 are OK, but lets wait and see. The last thing I want to do is let Wang go or Hughes, Kennedy or Chamberlain. Please remember that our acquisitions of starting pitching is the past have all been bad going bad to the successful acquisition of Mussina

    Thanks but no thanks

    We all have thoughts of how to bring back the Yanks to their former glory days, but mine vastly differ from yours. Only time will tell.

    Andy
    Fair enough, points all well taken. Our opinions may vary but we all just want the best for this franchise.
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  2. #277

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by TMS
    Sorry, but i'm trying to remember when in the 90s it was when the Yankees traded 2 promising young pitchers for a 28 year old dominant lefty starter in his prime that is widely considered to be the best in the game & will be for years to come. how exactly does that return us to the "dark age" of the early 90s again?
    Clearly you don't remember the days of Doug Drabek, Jay Buhner, Jose Rijos, Fred McGriff, etc.......: they were all traded in the late 80's for old, mediocre veterans. If you don't think that those trades set the Yankees back for years, then I can't help you.

    As I said earlier, we will have to agree to disagree on this.

  3. #278
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    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by The FUTURE
    Trade Crede, Ian Kennedy, Alan Horne and Ross Ohlendorf to FLA for 3B Miguel Cabrera.
    This is completely unrealistic. You guys are getting on me for suggesting it would take a package of our best pitching prospect & Wang to get Santana & saying that Damon is too much to give up for Crede, but when it comes to trading him along w/our 2nd tier talent you think we can get a young stud like Miguel Cabrera in a deal? Come on. I love Ian Kennedy & keeping him would very much lessen the blow of losing Hughes for me personally, but we'd have to start off any package for Cabrera with probably Cano & either Hughes or Joba to get the Marlins to be interested.
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  4. #279
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    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    you dont have to give up both Wang and Hughes to get Santana
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  5. #280
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    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbooster
    Clearly you don't remember the days of Doug Drabek, Jay Buhner, Jose Rijos, Fred McGriff, etc.......: they were all traded in the late 80's for old, mediocre veterans. If you don't think that those trades set the Yankees back for years, then I can't help you.

    As I said earlier, we will have to agree to disagree on this.
    Clearly i DO remember those days because like you just said, those guys were traded for old, MEDIOCRE VETERANS... last time i checked Johan Santana was far from being old & definitely NOT mediocre.
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  6. #281
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    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Wang/Hughes+Melky and Tabata would get it done
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  7. #282

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by TMS
    Clearly i DO remember those days because like you just said, those guys were traded for old, MEDIOCRE VETERANS... last time i checked Johan Santana was far from being old & definitely NOT mediocre.
    Ok, then I apologize, however........and it's a big however (for me, anyway), there is a 7 year age difference between Johan and Phil. As I have earlier stated, that is huge and I'm not willing to sacrifice those years, even for a pitcher of Santana's abilities. Santana doesn't guarantee anything (not his fault - there just are no guarantees in baseball or life), especially since the team is so unsettled as presently constituted. Given this, I'll take my chances with Phil. I have great faith in him developing into an ace and a staff leader.

    I can see this argument going on in a never ending circle because those that want to win now at any cost will never agree with those who are willing to wait on our youth (and vice versa).

  8. #283
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    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbooster
    Ok, then I apologize, however........and it's a big however (for me, anyway), there is a 7 year age difference between Johan and Phil. As I have earlier stated, that is huge and I'm not willing to sacrifice those years, even for a pitcher of Santana's abilities. Santana doesn't guarantee anything (not his fault - there just are no guarantees in baseball or life), especially since the team is so unsettled as presently constituted. Given this, I'll take my chances with Phil. I have great faith in him developing into an ace and a staff leader.

    I can see this argument going on in a never ending circle because those that want to win now at any cost will never agree with those who are willing to wait on our youth (and vice versa).
    see that's the thing though... for me, trading away Hughes doesn't sacrifice our future at all because we still have some great young talent still in the system that ensures this team will be competitive for a long, long time. Johan helps us win now AND in the years to come because of the fact that he's not old & not past his prime at all... see where i'm coming from on this? this is not a trade to throw in all my chips to go all in for next season... this is a trade that sets this team up for championships for several years because it gives us that missing piece that sets teams like the Red Sox ahead of us right now, & that is a dominant ace starting pitcher... i have no idea whether Hughes will ever become that or not & neither do you... if we lose Hughes we still have guys like Joba, Kennedy, Horne & Sanchez in the mix to fill the rotation spots for years to come, but at least we'll know we have a verified ace on the staff also.

    anyway, it's OK to agree to disagree... i respect ur opinions to be different from mine.
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  9. #284
    when the going gets tough ... JSG's Avatar
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    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeetomer54
    Wang/Hughes+Melky and Tabata would get it done
    WAY too much methinks.

  10. #285

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbooster
    Ok, then I apologize, however........and it's a big however (for me, anyway), there is a 7 year age difference between Johan and Phil. As I have earlier stated, that is huge and I'm not willing to sacrifice those years, even for a pitcher of Santana's abilities. Santana doesn't guarantee anything (not his fault - there just are no guarantees in baseball or life), especially since the team is so unsettled as presently constituted. Given this, I'll take my chances with Phil. I have great faith in him developing into an ace and a staff leader.

    I can see this argument going on in a never ending circle because those that want to win now at any cost will never agree with those who are willing to wait on our youth (and vice versa).
    1. On one end of the spectrum you have throwing prospects away for mediocre talent and panic moves. Everyone always proclaims how this was a Hallmark of the yankees and how horrible it was... of course, when it comes time to actually name these can't miss prospects we threw to the curb who turned into stars, the list is pretty short.

    2. On the other end of the spectrum you have holding on to the farm at all costs, no matter what kind of deal or amazing player is available. These are kids whose potential is several years off and may or may not ever be realized.

    3. Somewhere in the middle you have making smart moves with these players when elite, franchise changing, championship building type talent presents itself to you. You don't trade them away for aging players on the decline, you don't trade them medicore fill ins, but you absolutely consider dealing them for the best of the best.

    No one is suggesting #1. You are suggesting #2. I am suggesting #3.

    Trading prospects, even your best one, for elite talent like the best pitcher in baseball, in his prime, is not gutting your farm system or trying to win now at all costs. It is just a smart move IMO - and we have to look no farther than Boston to learn that lesson.
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  11. #286

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximMan121
    Frankly, I wouldn't do this deal either (as the Yankees side). I don't see another team offering this much to the Twins for one year of Santana. And I don't see a team that can afford to extend him at the terms he'd cost, who have the prospects to offer either.
    This is the price WITH the 72 hr negotiation window contigent on an extension. Otherwise Wang by himself or Melky/ Kennedy should be plenty to ge this done.

  12. #287

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfallibleOne
    Sox will bring Lowell Back, in which case they are out of the running on Miguel.

    There are NO OTHER AL TEAMS looking for him. Would the Marlins ship Cabrera out of the NL so they dont have to face him? Giving him to the Dodgers or Giants would be bad for both sides. But by sending him to NY, they never have to worry about giving him to someone who will use him to punish the Marlins. Is that worth anything? I think it is if all packages are similar in value.

    Im looking for Cash to ship off: Wang, Kennedy, Horne, Melky, and like 6 B prospects in order to attain Johan Santana and Miguel Cabrera. If the Twins (or Marlins) are willing, I say we remove Wang or Kennedy from that list and put a combo of Sanchez, Ohlendorf, et all and 2 more B prospects in.
    Good starting list, but to nail down BOTH Cabrera and Johan, both Kennedy and Wang will go and probably at least one of Miranda,Austin jackson and tabata will go in addition to the afforementioned.

  13. #288

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron
    1. On one end of the spectrum you have throwing prospects away for mediocre talent and panic moves. Everyone always proclaims how this was a Hallmark of the yankees and how horrible it was... of course, when it comes time to actually name these can't miss prospects we threw to the curb who turned into stars, the list is pretty short.

    2. On the other end of the spectrum you have holding on to the farm at all costs, no matter what kind of deal or amazing player is available. These are kids whose potential is several years off and may or may not ever be realized.

    3. Somewhere in the middle you have making smart moves with these players when elite, franchise changing, championship building type talent presents itself to you. You don't trade them away for aging players on the decline, you don't trade them medicore fill ins, but you absolutely consider dealing them for the best of the best.

    No one is suggesting #1. You are suggesting #2. I am suggesting #3.

    Trading prospects, even your best one, for elite talent like the best pitcher in baseball, in his prime, is not gutting your farm system or trying to win now at all costs. It is just a smart move IMO - and we have to look no farther than Boston to learn that lesson.

    YUP....and were pretty deep here as well, I hope we dont trade more than two elite pitching prospects while keeping Joba and Hughes.....if Wang and Kennedy (who id rather not trade) are in the mix and most of our stud hitting prospects I think we can net one possibly even two stud major leaguers.

  14. #289

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by WWJD
    Good starting list, but to nail down BOTH Cabrera and Johan, both Kennedy and Wang will go and probably at least one of Miranda,Austin jackson and tabata will go in addition to the afforementioned.
    I would drop Miranda in that list in a heartbeat and throw Clippard and Eric Duncan in with them just for fun to get Johan and Miguel. Kennedy is the only one I would lament losing, but his sacrifice is totally worth it. Im not worried about Miranda disappearing because I A) have faith in Andy Philips to be serviceable and B) know that Justin Morneau will leave the Twins next year for free agency.
    Mariano Rivera was so great he was able to close a Denny's.

  15. #290

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    How do the Yanks hitting prospects stack up vs. the rest of baseball?
    I ask this becuase it looks like the Twins,Marlins,Giants and other teams may want some stud hitting when making a deal for one of their stud players.

    Also our pitching has been well-chronicled and I'd love to avoid giving up too many of them since pitching is more valuable.

    As far as I know:

    Melky- proven, ceiling considered very good but not elite

    Tabata- was once one of the top hitting prospects, but power may not be elite and injuries may have slid him down slightly. Probably top 10-15 now.

    Cano- Im not going to include b/c I consider him an untouchable especially if we don't re-sign A-rod.

    Austin Jackson- heavy ,htting OF tearing up the minors and may be considered a top 10 prospect.

    Miranda - I heard he is good, but don't know how good?

    So a few good ones, but not a ton and I don't know if they rank below some of the other stud hitting prospects out there.

    Any additional info on where these players project would be appreciated. Also are there additional hitters I may have missedthat could be viewed relatively high vs. other teams top prospects?

  16. #291
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    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    I keep seeing people drop Wang's name in the Santata package but please answer me this:

    Why would Minnesota in return for a guy they can't afford (Santana) want to a take Wang (another guy they won't be able to afford)?

    Doesn't it make more sense that they would be looking for major league ready prospects that they can have cheap for a few years?
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  17. #292

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron
    1. On one end of the spectrum you have throwing prospects away for mediocre talent and panic moves. Everyone always proclaims how this was a Hallmark of the yankees and how horrible it was... of course, when it comes time to actually name these can't miss prospects we threw to the curb who turned into stars, the list is pretty short.

    2. On the other end of the spectrum you have holding on to the farm at all costs, no matter what kind of deal or amazing player is available. These are kids whose potential is several years off and may or may not ever be realized.

    3. Somewhere in the middle you have making smart moves with these players when elite, franchise changing, championship building type talent presents itself to you. You don't trade them away for aging players on the decline, you don't trade them medicore fill ins, but you absolutely consider dealing them for the best of the best.

    No one is suggesting #1. You are suggesting #2. I am suggesting #3.

    Trading prospects, even your best one, for elite talent like the best pitcher in baseball, in his prime, is not gutting your farm system or trying to win now at all costs. It is just a smart move IMO - and we have to look no farther than Boston to learn that lesson.
    A lot of people don't think it's a smart move to trade a pitching prospect of the quality of Phil Hughes for a guy who's 7 years older. No matter how good he has been. Especially when you factor in we could get him as a FA in a year without giving up any talent at all. Just silliness to give up a guy like Hughes, who is cost controlled for a long time, let alone add a Wang or so to sweeten the pot, lol. All for a guy set to make max money.

    This is likely to be a transition year, getting Santana this year instead of next is not worth the talent we would have to give up. Not talent like Joba or Hughes anyway.
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  18. #293

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogi
    I keep seeing people drop Wang's name in the Santata package but please answer me this:

    Why would Minnesota in return for a guy they can't afford (Santana) want to a take Wang (another guy they won't be able to afford)?

    Doesn't it make more sense that they would be looking for major league ready prospects that they can have cheap for a few years?
    Yogi

    How soon will wang make big bucks? Arb-eligible doesn't mean he'll get a huge deal....

    Also his deal will not come close to Santana's

  19. #294
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    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogi
    I keep seeing people drop Wang's name in the Santata package but please answer me this:

    Why would Minnesota in return for a guy they can't afford (Santana) want to a take Wang (another guy they won't be able to afford)?

    Doesn't it make more sense that they would be looking for major league ready prospects that they can have cheap for a few years?
    with the Twins getting Torii Hunter & Johan Santana's money off the books, they will easily have money left over to pay a guy like Wang, & if the Yankees are giving up their top pitching prospect in the deal i have a hard time seeing them turning that down... they can always parlay Wang to another team to get more prospects if they so choose.
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  20. #295
    can't pump his fist Mark19's Avatar
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    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by TMS
    with the Twins getting Torii Hunter & Johan Santana's money off the books, they will easily have money left over to pay a guy like Wang, & if the Yankees are giving up their top pitching prospect in the deal i have a hard time seeing them turning that down... they can always parlay Wang to another team to get more prospects if they so choose.
    Wang wouldn't be more than a #3 or 4 starter for the Twins. Their new stadium won't be ready for at least three seasons and groundball pitchers don't do well on carpet. Besides, between Slowey, Bonser, Garza, Baker and Liriano, they'll have no problem filling out the middle of their rotation next season.
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  21. #296

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by WWJD
    How do the Yanks hitting prospects stack up vs. the rest of baseball?
    I ask this becuase it looks like the Twins,Marlins,Giants and other teams may want some stud hitting when making a deal for one of their stud players.

    Also our pitching has been well-chronicled and I'd love to avoid giving up too many of them since pitching is more valuable.

    As far as I know:

    Melky- proven, ceiling considered very good but not elite

    Tabata- was once one of the top hitting prospects, but power may not be elite and injuries may have slid him down slightly. Probably top 10-15 now.

    Cano- Im not going to include b/c I consider him an untouchable especially if we don't re-sign A-rod.

    Austin Jackson- heavy ,htting OF tearing up the minors and may be considered a top 10 prospect.

    Miranda - I heard he is good, but don't know how good?

    So a few good ones, but not a ton and I don't know if they rank below some of the other stud hitting prospects out there.

    Any additional info on where these players project would be appreciated. Also are there additional hitters I may have missedthat could be viewed relatively high vs. other teams top prospects?
    Jackson and Tabata top 10? Wow talk about overrating prospects...

  22. #297

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by WWJD
    How do the Yanks hitting prospects stack up vs. the rest of baseball?
    I ask this becuase it looks like the Twins,Marlins,Giants and other teams may want some stud hitting when making a deal for one of their stud players.

    Also our pitching has been well-chronicled and I'd love to avoid giving up too many of them since pitching is more valuable.

    As far as I know:

    Melky- proven, ceiling considered very good but not elite

    Tabata- was once one of the top hitting prospects, but power may not be elite and injuries may have slid him down slightly. Probably top 10-15 now.

    Cano- Im not going to include b/c I consider him an untouchable especially if we don't re-sign A-rod.

    Austin Jackson- heavy ,htting OF tearing up the minors and may be considered a top 10 prospect.

    Miranda - I heard he is good, but don't know how good?

    So a few good ones, but not a ton and I don't know if they rank below some of the other stud hitting prospects out there.

    Any additional info on where these players project would be appreciated. Also are there additional hitters I may have missedthat could be viewed relatively high vs. other teams top prospects?
    Melky is generally believed to have a very low ceiling but I hope thats wrong.
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  23. #298

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dynasties R Forever
    A lot of people don't think it's a smart move to trade a pitching prospect of the quality of Phil Hughes for a guy who's 7 years older. No matter how good he has been.
    I have no doubt that a lot of people are enamored with young arms that have potential - so much so that they would avoid trading them for elite, once in a decade type talent that could change the organization. This board in particular is full of this sentiment.

    I'm pretty happy that Hank and Cash are not in that camp. Their quotes of late hint at a very intentional approach.

    “And while no player is untouchable, some are more untouchable than others.”

    “It’s pretty obvious which players we’re not going to trade. Chamberlain, Hughes and even Kennedy. Not for a position player.”

    No one is untouchable, we won't trade them for position players. Translation: They are being rational about someone like Santana.
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  24. #299
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    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark19
    Wang wouldn't be more than a #3 or 4 starter for the Twins. Their new stadium won't be ready for at least three seasons and groundball pitchers don't do well on carpet. Besides, between Slowey, Bonser, Garza, Baker and Liriano, they'll have no problem filling out the middle of their rotation next season.
    well then like i said, they could easily trade Wang to a team looking to shore up their starting rotation by trading him for the positional prospects that they need. is that an unrealistic scenario in your eyes?
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  25. #300

    Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron
    I have no doubt that a lot of people are enamored with young arms that have potential - so much so that they would avoid trading them for elite, once in a decade type talent that could change the organization. This board in particular is full of this sentiment.

    I'm pretty happy that Hank and Cash are not in that camp. Their quotes of late hint at a very intentional approach.

    “And while no player is untouchable, some are more untouchable than others.”

    “It’s pretty obvious which players we’re not going to trade. Chamberlain, Hughes and even Kennedy. Not for a position player.”

    No one is untouchable, we won't trade them for position players. Translation: They are being rational about someone like Santana.
    Then why did the Peavy talks end once Hughes and Melky were brought up? I can assure you that Melky was not the deal breaker on that one......I do think Kennedy is probably still a trade candidate if he would be the centerpiece of a Peavy or Santana trade, but since the Pads and Twins would likely insist on Phil or Joba, those trades are going absolutely nowhere. I don't see anyway that Phil or Joba are traded.

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