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  1. #1
    BANG! StatenIslandYankee's Avatar
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    We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    The last few years just goes to show you how tough it is to win the whole thing. Talent just gets you to the dance, but it's luck, a few breaks here and there, and a sprinkle of things going your way. We were blessed over the last 13 years. 13 straight post-season appearances, 6 AL Pennants, 4 World Series titles, and a ton of memories that we will reflect on later in life. I know it's hard to look at it this way at a point like this, but admire this team, this organization, and most of all ... this manager. We all question his moves ... heck every fan questions every managers moves at some point. But this team will go through a brick wall for this man, and that's more than half the battle. And for all the bad signings by Cashman (be it pushed by the Tampa brass or not), he has legitimately given stock to a team that was on the brink of crashing into the 1980's all over again. So I beg you, cherish this team, cherish this manager, and most of all cherish this organization.

  2. #2
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    I've said this every season since 2000. The goal of winning world series every year is not realistic with the playoff formats. The main goal is to get to play in the post season, then hope you get more good pitching and timely hitting than your opponents. If the old Yankee teams of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle had to win 2 playoff series just to get to the WS, how many WS titles would we be celebrating now?
    [FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are.

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  3. #3

    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by JfromJersey
    I've said this every season since 2000. The goal of winning world series every year is not realistic with the playoff formats. The main goal is to get to play in the post season, then hope you get more good pitching and timely hitting than your opponents. If the old Yankee teams of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle had to win 2 playoff series just to get to the WS, how many WS titles would we be celebrating now?

    amen to that....and that's why Joe Torre should be the manager of the Yankees next season.

  4. #4
    BANG! StatenIslandYankee's Avatar
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankeesfan811
    amen to that....and that's why Joe Torre should be the manager of the Yankees next season.
    Agreed. If it's one thing I will admit (and I'm not a huge Joe fan), these players bust their FANNY for him more than most managers. That counts for a lot in my eye.

  5. #5
    Win or else BroadwayBomber55's Avatar
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by JfromJersey
    I've said this every season since 2000. The goal of winning world series every year is not realistic with the playoff formats. The main goal is to get to play in the post season, then hope you get more good pitching and timely hitting than your opponents. If the old Yankee teams of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle had to win 2 playoff series just to get to the WS, how many WS titles would we be celebrating now?
    That's true.
    "Losing is not my enemy, fear of losing is my enemy." - Tennis champion Rafael Nadal

  6. #6

    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    It is true that you can't expect to win a WS every year. But with the talent and payroll the Yankees have, you SHOULD expect better than 3 feeble 1st round exits in a row. If the Yankees in the past 3 years had, say, lost in the WS, lost an ALDS, and lost and ALCS it would be a different story.

  7. #7
    BANG! StatenIslandYankee's Avatar
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by dave8274
    It is true that you can't expect to win a WS every year. But with the talent and payroll the Yankees have, you SHOULD expect better than 3 feeble 1st round exits in a row. If the Yankees in the past 3 years had, say, lost in the WS, lost an ALDS, and lost and ALCS it would be a different story.
    It's a crap shoot.

  8. #8

    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by StatenIslandYankee
    It's a crap shoot.
    Just becasue Joe Torre keeps saying it's a crap shoot doesn't make it so. One team outplays the other. If it was a crap shoot, why even bother playing the games? Why not just flip a coin to see who advances?

  9. #9
    Released Outright CallOfTheCrow's Avatar
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by dave8274
    It is true that you can't expect to win a WS every year. But with the talent and payroll the Yankees have, you SHOULD expect better than 3 feeble 1st round exits in a row. If the Yankees in the past 3 years had, say, lost in the WS, lost an ALDS, and lost and ALCS it would be a different story.
    There's no point to even bringing up payroll anymore. Look at the NLCS & some of the past World Series winners. The Florida Marlins & their 'whopping' payroll are the owners of two world championships in 7 years.

  10. #10
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by CallOfTheCrow
    There's no point to even bringing up payroll anymore. Look at the NLCS & some of the past World Series winners. The Florida Marlins & their 'whopping' payroll are the owners of two world championships in 7 years.

    1997

    1) Yankeees - 60 million
    2) Orioles - 55 million
    3) White Sox - 55 million
    4) Indians - 55 million
    5) Braves - 51 million
    6) Rangers - 51 million
    7) Marlins - 48 million
    8) Reds - 47 million
    9) Blue Jays - 46 million
    10) Cardinals - 45 million

  11. #11

    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by CallOfTheCrow
    There's no point to even bringing up payroll anymore. Look at the NLCS & some of the past World Series winners. The Florida Marlins & their 'whopping' payroll are the owners of two world championships in 7 years.
    Absolutely ridiculous.

    When A-Rod wants to renegotiate, let's play Florida Marlin on him and see how that plays out. Let's see if that has any effect on the team.

    Do you think if we lost A-Rod we would be worse for it?

    Do we think losing A-Rod would give us less of a chance for postseason success?
    Che Rodriguez - Freedom Fighter

  12. #12

    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by dave8274
    It is true that you can't expect to win a WS every year. But with the talent and payroll the Yankees have, you SHOULD expect better than 3 feeble 1st round exits in a row. If the Yankees in the past 3 years had, say, lost in the WS, lost an ALDS, and lost and ALCS it would be a different story.
    I think this is the main issue. If won the '04 series (and really should've) it might not have felt so bad. 3 first round exits (without getting to a game 5) isn't acceptable.

  13. #13

    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by dave8274
    It is true that you can't expect to win a WS every year. But with the talent and payroll the Yankees have, you SHOULD expect better than 3 feeble 1st round exits in a row. If the Yankees in the past 3 years had, say, lost in the WS, lost an ALDS, and lost and ALCS it would be a different story.

    We got out with a wimper... not a bang. So true.
    "Every new beginning comes from some other beginnings end"

  14. #14
    Forum Regular
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by JfromJersey
    I've said this every season since 2000. The goal of winning world series every year is not realistic with the playoff formats. The main goal is to get to play in the post season, then hope you get more good pitching and timely hitting than your opponents. If the old Yankee teams of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle had to win 2 playoff series just to get to the WS, how many WS titles would we be celebrating now?
    Um, but couldn't you argue that if to get to the World Series now you had to have the best recod in the AL every year how many post season appearances would we have the past 12 years?

    I think you're comparing apples to oranges...
    Josh Catone

  15. #15
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by JfromJersey
    I've said this every season since 2000. The goal of winning world series every year is not realistic with the playoff formats. The main goal is to get to play in the post season, then hope you get more good pitching and timely hitting than your opponents. If the old Yankee teams of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle had to win 2 playoff series just to get to the WS, how many WS titles would we be celebrating now?
    I think there are a lot of us that hold that view. But as long as Jeter keeps up with the "the season is a failure without a ring" mantra then the majority will buy into it. Until Jeter changes his tune this problem will not go away.

  16. #16
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by OldYankeeFan
    I think there are a lot of us that hold that view. But as long as Jeter keeps up with the "the season is a failure without a ring" mantra then the majority will buy into it. Until Jeter changes his tune this problem will not go away.
    To be a captain of George's team, I think you need to have high expectations.
    Beware the Bobcat!!!


  17. #17
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Help I am drowning in hogwash....

    So much talk about mystic, aura, the past, shoulda coulda woulda

    Get over it. The yankees lost because good pitching beats good hitting... everytime in the playoffs.

    Starting Pitching was horrible at the start of the season and became passable by the end, but no matter how much we wanted it to ... was not going to get the job done against the Indians' aces.

    We need to fix this. That is all. First see the players are they CURRENTLY are. Andy is not the same as before. Jeter is not the same. Rocket needs to be canned. So many are declining. Many need to be replaced. Fortunately, a new core of stars is being found.

    Sorry but this will take a little time, meanwhile enough with the handwringing and self doubt, oops lost 3 of 4, did not do better than last year. Small sample size and unique situations ... doesn't mean it will happen again.
    Put down the keyboard and back away from the edge! All is not lost!

  18. #18
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    With all the hand wringing, bitching, and moaning over these early post season exits, I wonder what this site will resemble after a few seasons of finishing out of the post season. Two crappy starts by our supposed ace, and 1 gnat induced wild pitch by our phenom, and we're back to calling for everyone's head on a silver platter?
    [FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are.

    It is never too late to be what you might have been.
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  19. #19
    Cashman Defender knickfan23's Avatar
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by OldYankeeFan
    I think there are a lot of us that hold that view. But as long as Jeter keeps up with the "the season is a failure without a ring" mantra then the majority will buy into it. Until Jeter changes his tune this problem will not go away.
    But the thing is there there were alot of players that played with DJ pre 2002 that held the same view. Those teams actually won. O'Neill, Tino, Bernie, Cone, Roger, Pettitte all believe the same thing Jeter feels. Now, its very rare you will find that special group of players that accept and in some cases embrace those expectations that really kind of started right around the playoffs of the 1998 season.

    Now, regarding the postseason. As I mentioned last night, this is an "evening out" of the past extraordinary success from the first 6 years (I'll count 2001 because they did have the lead in the 9th of Game 7). Winning 3 playoff series in baseball is VERY difficult. We just happened to have the good fortune of great pitching, timely 2 out hitting, good bullpen, and some bounces that went our way.

    Now, take into account some lucky good fortune..

    Jeff Maier catch
    Tino getting a strike called a ball in G1 in the 98 Series before hitting a slam
    Stanton pitch 4 innings of relief in G5 in Oakland in 2000
    Missed HR by Zeile in G1 of 2000 World Series
    Jeter flip play
    Grady Little Game 7

    Reverse anyone of those situations, and the 4 championships that we now see may not have taken place. Much like how if you reverse the the following situations....

    Mo Game 7 in Arizona
    Jeter called strike 3 on a ball in G2 in 2002 vs. Anaheim with bases loaded down 6-5 in the 8th inning
    Aaron Boone strike out (not getting sac fly) bases loaded with 1 out in G4 World Series 03
    Posada throws out Dave Roberts G4 2004 ALCS
    Tony Clark ground rule double G5 2004 ALCS
    Bernie Williams foul HR in G3 in Detroit
    Joba with "The Bugs"

    Anyone of those work in our favor and the perhaps the Yanks ride off to winning another title here or there. In the end, all the good fortune you run into comes back to you in the opposite way. That's baseball.

    And then you add in the element of pitching. There is no more important element in the playoffs than strong pitching. More often than not, it wont slump. And if you look at the last 17 postseason games, the overriding factor why the Yanks havent won is starting pitching. You can talk about the offense if you would like. But in the playoffs, if your starting pitcher cant give you good innings and either dominate the game or put you in a position to win, you will not win. You can look at the following situations where this came into play

    Kevin Brown Game 7 2004
    Randy Johnson Game 3 2005 DS
    Mike Mussina Game 5 2005 DS
    Randy Johnson Game 3 2006 DS
    Jaret Wright Game 4 2006 DS
    Chien-Ming Wang Game 1 and 4 2007 DS

    When you get complete clunkers like the 6 I mentioned, you have no chance. No offense is going to be able to come back from that. Not this offense. Not the 90's Indians. Not the 80's A's. No one. Not against a very good team who more than likely has a very good bullpen from the 6th inning on. And that does not even discount the starting pitcher the other team is throwing out there. Great hitting teams get neutralized in the postseason when they are forced to press and the opposing teams pitching is good. Back in the Yankees championship day, we were the ones that neutralized these other teams. Their was a reason the Texas Rangers and Cleveland Indians were never very successful in the playoffs against the NYY and that was because their offense was stopped by our pitching. The idea of "the pitching just has to be ok and well score enough runs for them" is flawed. No team can withstand bad starting pitching like that in the playoffs.

    We were spoiled because we had that pitching once before. From the starters, to the relievers and then Mo at the end. If the pitching was on the same dominant level in the last 5 years than it was in the first 5 years, we would continue to be spoiled by winning. Not only that, but the hitters wouldnt have to press because they know they dont have to battle back from 3,4,5 run deficits against another good team. But unfortunately, we have not gotten that.

    Sorry for writing so long, but I just needed to articulate this point. Hopefully, someone out there agrees.
    MLB on FOX blackouts - NO MORE!!

  20. #20
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by knickfan23
    But the thing is there there were alot of players that ...


    Sorry for writing so long, but I just needed to articulate this point. Hopefully, someone out there agrees.
    Excellent post. I can't find a point on which I disagree.
    Beware the Bobcat!!!


  21. #21
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Excellent post, knickfan!

    Quote Originally Posted by knickfan23
    And then you add in the element of pitching. There is no more important element in the playoffs than strong pitching. More often than not, it wont slump. And if you look at the last 17 postseason games, the overriding factor why the Yanks havent won is starting pitching. You can talk about the offense if you would like. But in the playoffs, if your starting pitcher cant give you good innings and either dominate the game or put you in a position to win, you will not win. You can look at the following situations where this came into play

    Kevin Brown Game 7 2004
    Randy Johnson Game 3 2005 DS
    Mike Mussina Game 5 2005 DS
    Randy Johnson Game 3 2006 DS
    Jaret Wright Game 4 2006 DS
    Chien-Ming Wang Game 1 and 4 2007 DS

    When you get complete clunkers like the 6 I mentioned, you have no chance. No offense is going to be able to come back from that. Not this offense. Not the 90's Indians. Not the 80's A's. No one. Not against a very good team who more than likely has a very good bullpen from the 6th inning on. And that does not even discount the starting pitcher the other team is throwing out there. ...
    To those clunkers, you can add the start by Andrew Eugene Pettitte in Game Six of the '01 World Series and Pettitte's and Wells's starts in Games 2 and 4 of the '02 ALDS vs. the Angels.

  22. #22
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by -tz
    Excellent post, knickfan!

    To those clunkers, you can add the start by Andrew Eugene Pettitte in Game Six of the '01 World Series and Pettitte's and Wells's starts in Games 2 and 4 of the '02 ALDS vs. the Angels.
    Very well put, knickfan, and excellent detail. You could also add Pettitte's first start in the 1996 WS, followed by his stellar performance in Game 5 ... in a year that they won it all. The difference then was that there was more depth & as Pettitte would go on to prove, he had that "bounce back" capability.

    Like some of the somewhat *older* fans here that remember lean times, I think we're fortunate to have been watching this team win series & get to the playoffs year after year.
    GoYanks!


  23. #23
    Win or else BroadwayBomber55's Avatar
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by -tz
    Excellent post, knickfan!

    To those clunkers, you can add the start by Andrew Eugene Pettitte in Game Six of the '01 World Series and Pettitte's and Wells's starts in Games 2 and 4 of the '02 ALDS vs. the Angels.
    And David Wells Game 5 of the 2003 World Series.
    "Losing is not my enemy, fear of losing is my enemy." - Tennis champion Rafael Nadal

  24. #24
    You know me: down with OBP jeterismyhomeboy's Avatar
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    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by knickfan23
    Sorry for writing so long, but I just needed to articulate this point. Hopefully, someone out there agrees.
    Absolutely brilliant.

    I have to say, everyone in my family turned to me after the loss and worried for my sanity. But I wasn't as upset because I understood that when your ace doesn't pitch like an ace, you won't be winning any series. Luck is so important to winning, and Cleveland had it and the Yanks didn't. Sure, the HR didn't help, but what about two out flares and dunkers, hits that wouldn't have happened if the batter had been jammed just an eighth of an inch further in? What about the freakish assault of gnats that distracted fielders and swarmed Joba Chamberlain unlike any other pitcher? Or what about Shoppach's kinda, sorta, not really HBP? Or the missed catcher's interference? Every single one of those plays could have completely changed the game. And the 2 out hits? Has any team ever been so proficient in two out hits?

    There's not too much I can do to elaborate on the wonderful post by Knickfan, but reading it is why I'm looking forward to 2008 rather than moping about 2007. In 5 games...in any small sample of games, luck doesn't necessarily even out. That's what the whole 162 game season is for, so that for every missed CS, there's a gift call on a stolen base. Some calls are more egregious than others, but for the most part, a team is as unlucky as it is lucky. That's not the case in the postseason, where two games of pure luck don't necessarily circle back around.

    At any rate, I feel very lucky even if I've only been really following the team since '05. To be able to look back and enjoy the tradition, moments, and history of this ballclub is a wonderful way to live as a fan, and I wouldn't give it up for anything.
    “You can’t ascribe our fall from grace to any single event or set of circumstances. You can’t lose what you lacked at conception.”

  25. #25

    Re: We were spoiled for a decade (realistic view on Baseball)

    Quote Originally Posted by jeterismyhomeboy
    I have to say, everyone in my family turned to me after the loss and worried for my sanity. But I wasn't as upset because I understood that when your ace doesn't pitch like an ace, you won't be winning any series. Luck is so important to winning, and Cleveland had it and the Yanks didn't.


    Wow... just wow....

    You werent upset because you(like many of us other fans) are getting used to this. Losing in first round.

    You(like many of us other fans) could see that we couldnt buy a timely hit... whereas Cleveland was ABSOLUTE friggin money when it came to the clutch hit... not only clutch but the 2 out hit.

    Luck had nothing to do with it. Pitching aside. We were in every game to win and our hitting let us down.

    Luck = a Joe Torre-reason-for-losing-ism
    "Every new beginning comes from some other beginnings end"

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