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gdn
10-09-06, 05:46 PM
you can retaliate without beaning a guy in the head.make them uncomfortable in the batters box.don't let them set there feet by coming inside on them.


you can also just hit them on the @ssThere's also the risk that the ball slips out of your hand and instead of hitting them on the a$$ hits them in the head. He doesn't want to take that risk. What is so difficult to understand?

remembermunson15
10-09-06, 05:47 PM
There's also the risk that the ball slips out of your hand and instead of hitting them on the a$$ hits them in the head. He doesn't want to take that risk. What is so difficult to understand?


forget it you're just being ridiculous now.

gdn
10-09-06, 05:48 PM
I'm being ridiculous? You're advocating hitting someone with a 70-90mph baseball!

TMS
10-09-06, 05:48 PM
the point is that we can have him back next year for $15.5m. Are all five of our starters next year all going to be better than Moose -- i.e., better than 15-7, 3.51? If not, then the team is better with him on the roster and the only reason to dump him is to save some money.

& i'm saying i'd rather let him go & target a pair of young arms that can help form a nice 1-2-3 punch w/Wang next year & going forward... guys like Ervin Santana & Daisuke Matsuzaka are names that are being talked about alot & they're both at least 10 years younger than Mussina w/great stuff... Unit will be here regardless because of his contract & health issues, so we need to move on & get younger by going this route.

remembermunson15
10-09-06, 05:51 PM
I'm being ridiculous? You're advocating hitting someone with a 70-90mph baseball!


you're acting like this is something new in baseball.stop pretending it is.

mussina doesn't defend his teammates because he doesn't want to plain and simple.just another reason why i don't like him.

gdn
10-09-06, 05:51 PM
you're acting like this is something new in baseball.stop pretending it is.

mussina doesn't defend his teammates because he doesn't want to plain and simple.just another reason why i don't like him.You fault him for not doing something that might jeopardize someone's life and career? Okay then...

remembermunson15
10-09-06, 05:54 PM
You fault him for not doing something that might jeopardize someone's life and career? Okay then...


i'm just gonna let this go because clearly you never will.

cmaff05
10-09-06, 05:55 PM
you think paying him 15 million for next year is a smart decision?

now who's crazy?

Who said anybody is paying him 15 million? I didn't say that. He'll get 2/24 max. And he's definitely worth that.

remembermunson15
10-09-06, 05:58 PM
Who said anybody is paying him 15 million? I didn't say that. He'll get 2/24 max. And he's definitely worth that.


i've read his option is for 15 million.he's not worth 15 million for 1 year or 24 million for 2.that's just my opinion

this team needs younger,cheaper,hungrier pitching.time to move on.

Spiker101
10-09-06, 05:59 PM
The Mussina vs. Wang performance debate only underscores the more important issue which is, we did not have a pitcher in the postseason rotation capable of completely shutting down the opposition the way Bonderman shut down our lineup.

RJ was supposed to be that guy. Unfortunately we got him a few years too late. Moose is no longer that guy, and Wang projects to be more of a solid 2 - 3 starter than a true ace. Wright and Lidle should not even be on a postseason rotation.

We need to bring in a front line starter and promote Hughes at some point next year (assuming he dominates AAA in May). Otherwise we can expect the same dissapointing results next postseason. I don't care how good your lineup is, you simply cannot expect to score 8 runs a game in the playoffs.

Yep. This is how nutty I'm getting about the Tigers debacle. I went through the playoff series that led to the four World Series championships. Obviously, you have to win 44 games to get four rings. Of those, 44 wins, the Yanks won nine games in which they scored three runs or less. The Yanks starters in the Tigers series had combined ERA of 6.14. It's the pitching, stupid.

cmaff05
10-09-06, 06:02 PM
i've read his option is for 15 million.he's not worth 15 million for 1 year or 24 million for 2.that's just my opinion

this team needs younger,cheaper,hungrier pitching.time to move on.

how isn't mussina hungry? i just don't get it. he pitched a average game in the ALDS. He pitched a little bit worse than Wang. But he's still been a great pitcher for the Yankees.

As a #2 starter, there really is nobody better in this league than Moose.

And he's definitely worth 2/24. What do you think he is worth? Come on, he's better than the other pitcher on the market, Jason Schmidt. He's likely better than Matsuzuka.

Spiker101
10-09-06, 06:06 PM
Moose doesn't throw at hitters because he got beaned in the head. I don't blame him.

Not exactly what happened. Moose beaned someone, I forget who, for the Seattle Mariners, and it touched off the wildest brawl I've ever seen in person. It went on and on for almost a half-hour if I remember right. When the dust cleared, Mussina had suffered a pulled groin that kept him out of action for 2-3 weeks. He was never as aggressive again.

Spiker101
10-09-06, 06:17 PM
how isn't mussina hungry? i just don't get it. he pitched a average game in the ALDS. He pitched a little bit worse than Wang. But he's still been a great pitcher for the Yankees.

As a #2 starter, there really is nobody better in this league than Moose.

And he's definitely worth 2/24. What do you think he is worth? Come on, he's better than the other pitcher on the market, Jason Schmidt. He's likely better than Matsuzuka.

Great is overstating it. He had one great season, two good seasons and two average seasons.
At 38 he would be too unreliable. He hasn't thrown 200 innings since '03. He's missed some time in each of the last two seasons because of injury. He's been pretty mediocre overall in the last few postseason series. He's not the answer to what ails the Yanks. Neither is Schmidt or Zito. The Japanese kid is a huge risk, no doubt, but his upside is orbiting over Mussina's at this point. The Yanks are going to have to sign the kid and pick up another top starter via trade.

gdn
10-09-06, 06:18 PM
Not exactly what happened. Moose beaned someone, I forget who, for the Seattle Mariners, and it touched off the wildest brawl I've ever seen in person. It went on and on for almost a half-hour if I remember right. When the dust cleared, Mussina had suffered a pulled groin that kept him out of action for 2-3 weeks. He was never as aggressive again.Just the same; I can't blame him for not wanting to risk an injury - for himself or someone else - again.

cmaff05
10-09-06, 06:20 PM
Great is overstating it. He had one great season, two good seasons and two average seasons.
At 38 he would be too unreliable. He hasn't thrown 200 innings since '03. He's missed some time in each of the last two seasons because of injury. He's been pretty mediocre overall in the last few postseason series.

We'll agree to disagree here. I don't think he has been mediocre at all. I agree that his performance does not warrant a 19 million dollar option, but he's well worth 2/24.



He's not the answer to what ails the Yanks. Neither is Schmidt or Zito. The Japanese kid is a huge risk, no doubt, but his upside is orbiting over Mussina's at this point. The Yanks are going to have to sign the kid and pick up another top starter via trade.

Who is this top starter you speak of? And Contreras upside was supposedly "orbiting" over Mussinas - how did that work out. These Japanese and foreign starters are a huge crapshoot.

TMS
10-09-06, 06:39 PM
Who is this top starter you speak of? And Contreras upside was supposedly "orbiting" over Mussinas - how did that work out. These Japanese and foreign starters are a huge crapshoot.

yes, but so is Mussina next season... at his advancing age & the fact that he hasn't been durable enough to win more than 15 games since '03 is alarming... we've all seen how inconsistent he can be in the postseason as well.

NelsonMuntz
10-09-06, 09:19 PM
Yep. This is how nutty I'm getting about the Tigers debacle. I went through the playoff series that led to the four World Series championships. Obviously, you have to win 44 games to get four rings. Of those, 44 wins, the Yanks won nine games in which they scored three runs or less. The Yanks starters in the Tigers series had combined ERA of 6.14. It's the pitching, stupid.
That's the bottom line. With this rotation the offense needed to score 5 runs a game to have a chance to win. That's just not realistic in the postseason.

TiMMy I
10-09-06, 09:19 PM
I just joined this board to post this as a thread cause i find this to be an interesting little tid bid but for some reason im not allowed to post a thread for 6 months so i guess i will reply it here:

The Game 1 Curse

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems like every time the yankees come out strong with a win in game 1 of the division series they end up getting beaten in horrible fashion.

1995
first yankee home playoff game in14 years, stadium is shaking, donny baseball hitting home runs .....nothing is stopping this team, boom,swept 3 games in seattle

1997
vs Cle........come out with a bang raines-jeter-oniell hit back to back to back homeruns, look like they are on their way to repeating they then go on to lose heart breaking games in cleveland including mo rivera giving up that HR to sandy alomar.

1998 &1999 they won game 1 but they were just flat out better then everyone those years and there was no way in hell anyone was beating them so those 2 years are the exceptions

2002
beat the angels game 1, giambi homers in his first playoff game as a yankee, they then proceed to get demolished by the angels in what would be the first of many years of getting beat by tougher scrappier hungrier teams..........

2005
Go on the road against the angels , moose pitches abig game , maybe things would be different this time against anaheim, not quite, our new "ACE" randy johnson blows a lead at home in game 3 forcing us to go back out to the west coast to get beat in a game 5.

2006
Jeter goes 5 for 5 , the "best line up of all time" actually looks that way for one game against a mediocre nate robertson, only to show their true colors in the next 3 games facing real deal pitching.

Now u look at all the years they lost game 1 of the division series
96 lose game 1 to tex, win championship
2000 lose game 1 to oak, win championship
2001 lose game 1 &2 to oak, win 3 straignt , get to game 7 of the WS
2003 and 2004 lose game 1 to min both years, come back to win and advance

Im sure there is no real relevance to this and it has alot more to do with the make up of the teams and not whether or not they win game 1, but this is a very interesting pattern.

PittsburghYankeeFan
10-09-06, 09:23 PM
not being able to hit kenny rogers was a crime against humanity. even if bonderman wins game 4; you have to be able to beat a bum like kenny rogers. if they do, we get game 5 back in our building with wang against robertson and we send them packing,

No--we hold onto a 3-1 lead in the fifth inning of game 2 and none of the rest matters.

jpao89
10-09-06, 10:25 PM
I dont put all the blame on Torre, but first of all it was all about greed for Sheff to come back so he has a good October and gets a good contract next year instead Torre thinking of the team and saying sorry but you cannot come back a week before the season and expect us to make room for you. Second, you cannot put in a brand new lineup for the playoffs for the first time all season. He completely ruined the chemistry of the team, the team we won 97 games with, the team we won the Eastern Division, the team that swept Boston in a 5 game series. I cant blame Torre for the team not pitching and hitting but you blame him for messing with the order, putting A-rod 8th no matter how much I hate him, will just kill him and the team especially after you bench Sheff in game 3 than put him back in the cleanup spot in game 4 when he was 1 for 12. Not smart with the lineup and didnt get his team ready for the postseason.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2618683


Sheff agrees with you in part and basically threw Joe under the bus. I find that amazing given that but for Joe Torre, Sheff wouldn't even have smelled the postseason roster, a place where he quite frankly didn't belong.

I still can't understand the rationale behind how the return of Sheffield (and Matsui) was handled. The Yankees made a decision during the season that it was necessary to make trades and to build a new team. In other words, they judged that they could not wait for Sheff and Matsui to return. To do so was to risk the division. But Cahsman played poker perfectly and led the league to believe he was willing to chance missing the playoffs and wait for Sheff and Matsui to return (he probably was).

Ok, so the Yankees built a new team with Abreu in right field and Melky holding down left field at or above VORP, but with superior defensive skills to Matsui. That team, that rebuilt team, somehow managed (gasp, without Sheff) to dominate the AL and blow out the division. Why then, late in the season, after the division was well within hand were Matsui and Sheff treated as saviors upon their return. It was as if the Yankees were saying, "Thank God you are back, we barely got by without you, we have to squeeze you in no matter what." I know that in Torre's mind it was all part of the "don't lose your job due to injury" philosophy, but the team had been rebuilt, and moved on. Many in the Yankee organization didn't expect them back, at all. Don't get me wrong, Sheff and Matsui should have been welcomed back, but in the capacity of "we will fit you in where it can help this team, you know, the team that, no offense, easily won the division without you."

At the end of the day, Getting Sheff into this lineup was like fitting a round peg in a square hole. He wasn't ready, was played waaay out of position and, now, seems to be throwing Torre under the bus in an effort to save his own skin, i.e. get his big fat option picke up. In my opinion, bolstered by his statements, Sheff should be gone from the Yankees. I honestly think this guy believes the Yankees should pick up his option and he should play right field in front of Abreu. No offense to him, but Abreu is the future, Gary is the past, one I would like to forget.

Roberto Kelly
10-09-06, 10:45 PM
It's interesting but it seems to me that the anger and vitriol is worse this year than it was after the 04 loss to the Red Sox, which was clearly a bigger collapse. I suppose that's due to the collective anger for the way the last few years have ended.

cmaff05
10-09-06, 10:49 PM
yes, but so is Mussina next season... at his advancing age & the fact that he hasn't been durable enough to win more than 15 games since '03 is alarming... we've all seen how inconsistent he can be in the postseason as well.

15 games is still 15 games. And at worst we know we are getting a 4 ERA guy. At best we will get a mid 3 ERA person. And he's not going to wilt like a little sunflower seed like Jeff Weaver.

bambam51
10-10-06, 12:18 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2618683


Sheff agrees with you in part and basically threw Joe under the bus. I find that amazing given that but for Joe Torre, Sheff wouldn't even have smelled the postseason roster, a place where he quite frankly didn't belong.

I still can't understand the rationale behind how the return of Sheffield (and Matsui) was handled. The Yankees made a decision during the season that it was necessary to make trades and to build a new team. In other words, they judged that they could not wait for Sheff and Matsui to return. To do so was to risk the division. But Cahsman played poker perfectly and led the league to believe he was willing to chance missing the playoffs and wait for Sheff and Matsui to return (he probably was).

Ok, so the Yankees built a new team with Abreu in right field and Melky holding down left field at or above VORP, but with superior defensive skills to Matsui. That team, that rebuilt team, somehow managed (gasp, without Sheff) to dominate the AL and blow out the division. Why then, late in the season, after the division was well within hand were Matsui and Sheff treated as saviors upon their return. It was as if the Yankees were saying, "Thank God you are back, we barely got by without you, we have to squeeze you in no matter what." I know that in Torre's mind it was all part of the "don't lose your job due to injury" philosophy, but the team had been rebuilt, and moved on. Many in the Yankee organization didn't expect them back, at all. Don't get me wrong, Sheff and Matsui should have been welcomed back, but in the capacity of "we will fit you in where it can help this team, you know, the team that, no offense, easily won the division without you."

At the end of the day, Getting Sheff into this lineup was like fitting a round peg in a square hole. He wasn't ready, was played waaay out of position and, now, seems to be throwing Torre under the bus in an effort to save his own skin, i.e. get his big fat option picke up. In my opinion, bolstered by his statements, Sheff should be gone from the Yankees. I honestly think this guy believes the Yankees should pick up his option and he should play right field in front of Abreu. No offense to him, but Abreu is the future, Gary is the past, one I would like to forget.

Sheffield is cancer.

27IsNext
10-10-06, 01:51 AM
What went wrong?

The pitching sucked, the hitters did what they've done since 2004 and choked at the first sign of adversity, and the manager just doesn't have that midas touch anymore.

Poor A-Rod will never conquer his inner demons in New York and will never learn to just shut up, Jeter is too much of a baby to stick up for him, and the whole clubhouse deserves flak for that SI article being printed. A-Rod and New York need a divorce, period.

BeantownYankee
10-10-06, 08:23 AM
No--we hold onto a 3-1 lead in the fifth inning of game 2 and none of the rest matters.

I think that if Torre doesn't take Wang out after 7 2/3 and allow Detroit to feel like they can win then the rest doesn't matter. To me that was the turning point.

Yankees1962
10-10-06, 08:25 AM
I think that if Torre doesn't take Wang out after 7 2/3 and allow Detroit to feel like they can win then the rest doesn't matter. To me that was the turning point.
They scored one run after removing Wang so how was that the turning point?

In Mo I Trust
10-10-06, 08:46 AM
I think that if Torre doesn't take Wang out after 7 2/3 and allow Detroit to feel like they can win then the rest doesn't matter. To me that was the turning point.

You take that over the Zumaya performance or Moose blowing the game 2 lead? Really?

35Knucklecurve
10-10-06, 08:51 AM
Not exactly what happened. Moose beaned someone, I forget who, for the Seattle Mariners, and it touched off the wildest brawl I've ever seen in person. It went on and on for almost a half-hour if I remember right. When the dust cleared, Mussina had suffered a pulled groin that kept him out of action for 2-3 weeks. He was never as aggressive again.
It was Bill Hasleman, the catcher and you're right. It was one of the ugliest brawls in MLB history. He basically charged the mound and threw a flying tackle on Mike and It was his shoulder that was injured. From all indications, Mike didn't make the decision to throw at him either, so even before that brawl, it was not his MO to throw at hitters.

With a little luck (which he doesn't have) Mike should have had 18 wins this year, even with missing some starts. I believe he could still win 14-16 games next year. Considering the fact that there wasn't one single 20-game winner in the majors this year, I think that's a good number for someone who'll be 38. There are quite a few young pitchers (Liriano for one) who've suffered injuries, so while age is certainly a factor in durability, it's not always the determining factor.

sweet_lou_14
10-10-06, 10:47 PM
I'm throwing this one into "Inside the Lines" because for me at least, it follows directly from the "what went wrong" discussions in the aftermath of the ALDS, which seem inevitably to flow into the "what's gone wrong for the past six years" discussions.

Why is it that we always talk about missing the days of Paul O'Neill and Tino Martinez and Scott Brosius ... but we seem to forget about David Cone? Looking back at what's been missing these past six years, it may well be that the most important missing piece was Cone. Yes, he was a fringe player on the 2000 team, but from 1995-1999 he was the undisputed leader of that pitching staff and a huge part of what made those teams so resilient and determined to win.

Perhaps the best thing you could say about David Cone was that he could find a way to win even when he didn't have his best stuff, or even when he was out of gas. The same absolutely cannot be said about a certain Big Unit or the finicky crossword lover who coughed up Game 2 on all those terrible 0-2 pitches.

We always talk about "leadership" among the position players, and sometimes about Mo being the leader in the bullpen, but we almost never talk about the huge void of leadership in the starting rotation. Wang might be the closest thing this team has to an ace, but he's not a leader ... and the two veteran "aces" we have not only don't pitch like aces, they don't appear to demonstrate any appreciable leadership at all. I simply don't think of guys like Mike Mussina or Randy Johnson as guys who make their teammates better. To some degree Clemens and Pettitte did that ... but I think the starting pitcher who had that quality in spades for this team was David Cone. I miss him.

aleahey
10-10-06, 10:49 PM
I'm throwing this one into "Inside the Lines" because for me at least, it follows directly from the "what went wrong" discussions in the aftermath of the ALDS, which seem inevitably to flow into the "what's gone wrong for the past six years" discussions.

Why is it that we always talk about missing the days of Paul O'Neill and Tino Martinez and Scott Brosius ... but we seem to forget about David Cone? Looking back at what's been missing these past six years, it may well be that the most important missing piece was Cone. Yes, he was a fringe player on the 2000 team, but from 1995-1999 he was the undisputed leader of that pitching staff and a huge part of what made those teams so resilient and determined to win.

Perhaps the best thing you could say about David Cone was that he could find a way to win even when he didn't have his best stuff, or even when he was out of gas. The same absolutely cannot be said about a certain Big Unit or the finicky crossword lover who coughed up Game 2 on all those terrible 0-2 pitches.

We always talk about "leadership" among the position players, and sometimes about Mo being the leader in the bullpen, but we almost never talk about the huge void of leadership in the starting rotation. Wang might be the closest thing this team has to an ace, but he's not a leader ... and the two veteran "aces" we have not only don't pitch like aces, they don't appear to demonstrate any appreciable leadership at all. I simply don't think of guys like Mike Mussina or Randy Johnson as guys who make their teammates better. To some degree Clemens and Pettitte did that ... but I think the starting pitcher who had that quality in spades for this team was David Cone. I miss him.

Remember the days of Cone, Wells, Pettite and Hernandez? Boy. Those were the days.

Brent
10-10-06, 10:52 PM
Remember the days of Cone, Wells, Pettite and Hernandez? Boy. Those were the days.

Thats why we won, not because people like brosius were so much better than A-Rod in the clutch!!!! Because we had pitchers that could go out there and pitch well every day, no Jaret Wrights in a must win game 5.

cmaff05
10-10-06, 10:58 PM
David Cone career postseason ERA: 3.80
Mike Mussina career postseason ERA: 3.30

Rich
10-10-06, 11:00 PM
The Yankees got a lot of breaks during the run, and there wasn't much competition in the AL.

sweet_lou_14
10-10-06, 11:00 PM
David Cone career postseason ERA: 3.80
Mike Mussina career postseason ERA: 3.30

So what.

TheBamTino24
10-10-06, 11:01 PM
David Cone career postseason ERA: 3.80
Mike Mussina career postseason ERA: 3.30

Are you suggesting Mussina has been a better postseason pitcher for us than Cone? The Mussina 3.30 aggregate is largely due to his 1.24 over 29 IP in 1997.

As Yankees, Cone's postseason stats are much better.

cmaff05
10-10-06, 11:05 PM
Are you suggesting Mussina has been a better postseason pitcher for us than Cone?

No. What I am suggesting is that they are fairly close and that Cone also had El Duque, Wells, Clemens and Pettite.

Mussina has had Wright, Pavano, Johnson, Kevin Brown and Javier Vasquez. If Wright, Pavano, Johnson and Vasquez had held up their end of the bargain, i'm sure there would be a little less slandering of Moose.

TheBamTino24
10-10-06, 11:06 PM
No. What I am suggesting is that they are fairly close and that Cone also had El Duque, Wells, Clemens and Pettite.

Mussina has had Wright, Pavano, Johnson, Kevin Brown and Javier Vasquez. If Wright, Pavano, Johnson and Vasquez had held up their end of the bargain, i'm sure there would be a little less slandering of Moose.

I think there would be less slandering of Mussina if he held on in Game 5 last season or Game 2 this season. Those two starts give us a series win last year, or a commanding 2-0 lead this year. I don't think Cone ever had consecutive postseason starts like that for us. In fact, he only lost 2 postseason games for us total - 1995 ALDS and 1997 ALDS in contrast to keeping us in games for 10 wins.

Rich
10-10-06, 11:06 PM
No. What I am suggesting is that they are fairly close and that Cone also had El Duque, Wells, Clemens and Pettite.

Mussina has had Wright, Pavano, Johnson, Kevin Brown and Javier Vasquez. If Wright, Pavano, Johnson and Vasquez had held up their end of the bargain, i'm sure there would be a little less slandering of Moose.

The problem is that Mussina can't pitch at a high level for a full season anymore.

cmaff05
10-10-06, 11:06 PM
BTW, David Cone deserves all the appreciation he gets. He was absolutely great for the Yankees.

TheBamTino24
10-10-06, 11:07 PM
The problem is that Mussina can't pitch at a high level for a full season anymore.

He's become Pedro Martinez. 100 pitches max, could use a 2-3 week vacation in August.

WebsterMulligan
10-10-06, 11:10 PM
I remember how much Cone picked up the Yanks in 1996, after he returned from the aneurysm. He helped the Yankees wrap up the division and came up huge in the playoffs. I believe that his returning from that life-threatening condition, to contribute on the field, really propelled the Yanks into the playoffs that year.

He had one of the best repertoires I've ever seen a pitcher possess. If one of his pitches was'nt working, he could resort to several others to get the job done.

TheBamTino24
10-10-06, 11:12 PM
I remember how much Cone picked up the Yanks in 1996, after he returned from the aneurysm. He helped the Yankees wrap up the division and came up huge in the playoffs. I believe that his returning from that life-threatening condition, to contribute on the field, really propelled the Yanks into the playoffs that year.

He had one of the best repertoires I've ever seen a pitcher possess. If one of his pitches wasn't working, he could resort to several others to get the job done.

That Labor Day, 1996 game where David Cone no-hit Oakland for the 7 innings he pitched in his first start back was absolutely incredible. I can still remember Bernie Williams robbing that HR at the wall to preserve the no-no.

Cone, unlike Mussina, had tremendous composure on the mound. If an error was made, he would ratchet up his intensity instead of suffering a letdown.

David Cone was definitely one of my favorites during the turnaround years. The trade for him in 1995 really solidified what we were doing as an organization. Remember all the "Hired Gun" headlines?

sweet_lou_14
10-10-06, 11:12 PM
No. What I am suggesting is that they are fairly close and that Cone also had El Duque, Wells, Clemens and Pettite.

Mussina has had Wright, Pavano, Johnson, Kevin Brown and Javier Vasquez. If Wright, Pavano, Johnson and Vasquez had held up their end of the bargain, i'm sure there would be a little less slandering of Moose.

I'm not trying to "slander" Mussina. He's done some amazing things in the postseason, notably the 1-0 game at Oakland in 2001 and the Game 7 relief appearance in 2003. I also think he may be the only person on the 2004 roster that doesn't get a significant share of the blame for losing to Boston (he got a win and left Game 5 with a lead). In 2005 I'm willing to give him a pass for the Bubba/Sheff collision. But it's not like he looked great that night. This year ... well, irrational or not, he's the guy I'm most disappointed in because he should have held that lead, period.

BTW I don't see how "having" other pitchers in the rotation helps a pitcher the way having hitters around you in a lineup helps a hitter. Mussina's successes -- and the bitter disappointments of his last two postseason starts -- stand on their own.

But anyway this was supposed to be a Cone thread. :)

TheTinoMobile
10-10-06, 11:14 PM
Remember how much we prized pitching...

I still remember the commercial where the guys would do everything for Cone so he wouldnt have to use his arm.. even take him into the restroom lol.

destiNY
10-10-06, 11:16 PM
No. What I am suggesting is that they are fairly close and that Cone also had El Duque, Wells, Clemens and Pettite.

Mussina has had Wright, Pavano, Johnson, Kevin Brown and Javier Vasquez. If Wright, Pavano, Johnson and Vasquez had held up their end of the bargain, i'm sure there would be a little less slandering of Moose.

This is the wrong time to bring up moose after this postseason play, he couldn't hold a 2 run lead in Game 2, which many believe to be the turning point...This is especially disheartening after the babying (which I agreed with of course) we gave him in the end of August and all of Sept to get him ready for that start in which he failed miserably in. I lost all confidence in Moose, he's been a good postseason pitcher in the past I'll def. agree to that, but for me, I don't trust him in anything more than 4th starters role.

aleahey
10-10-06, 11:53 PM
I so wish I had recorded a few of those old games now.

Cone really was fun to watch pitch. So was Wells, when he was on. So was El Duque...come to think of it. I wasn't a big Pettite fan, but I give him his due, when was on he was on.

I used to bash Mike Stanton left and right, I thought he was a terrible reliever. Now I only wish we had him (circa 1998).

HoJoCard
10-10-06, 11:57 PM
I really want to say that Cone leaving the Yankees, and going to the Red Sox, was one of the saddest days of my life.

Nick Papagorgio
10-11-06, 12:36 AM
David Cone career postseason ERA: 3.80
Mike Mussina career postseason ERA: 3.30

David Cone career WS rings: 5
Mike Mussina career WS rings: 0

JetahFan
10-11-06, 12:39 AM
David Cone career WS rings: 5
Mike Mussina career WS rings: 0

David Cone career Cy Young Awards: 1
Mike Mussina career Cy Young Awards: 0

The Comic Book Guy
10-11-06, 01:26 AM
II simply don't think of guys like Mike Mussina or Randy Johnson as guys who make their teammates better. To some degree Clemens and Pettitte did that ... but I think the starting pitcher who had that quality in spades for this team was David Cone. I miss him.

I think that's unfair. We, or at least I, have repeatedly heard about how Moose goes out of his way to help the younger pitchers on the staff. I remember reading about how earlier this year he helped Wang with his mechanics out of the stretch, and in spring training how he helped Wright with his curveball. I get the impression that he does a lot to help the younger pitchers on the staff.

That's not to say that he doesn't share some of the blame for the last two playoff losses. But including the postseason, Moose has a .6258 W% since joining the Yankees, nearly identical to Coney's .6273 W% with the Yanks. I think a lot of people here try to heap too much blame on Moose for the team's (relative) lack of postseason success since he joined the team.

BillBuckner
10-11-06, 04:50 AM
David Cone career postseason ERA: 3.80
Mike Mussina career postseason ERA: 3.30
Look past the numbers.

Pinstripedbass
10-11-06, 05:59 AM
Remember the days of Cone, Wells, Pettite and Hernandez? Boy. Those were the days.
And you knew who you were then.
Girls were girls and men were men.
Mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.

Sorry. I couldn't resist.:D

cmaff05
10-11-06, 07:26 AM
David Cone career WS rings: 5
Mike Mussina career WS rings: 0

Luis Sojo career WS rings: 3
Albert Pujols career WS rings: 0

I Heart Jeter
10-11-06, 08:13 AM
And you knew who you were then.
Girls were girls and men were men.
Mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.

Sorry. I couldn't resist.:D

And fuzzy little creatueres from Alpha Centauri were true fuzzy little creatures from Alpha Centauri

silverdsl
10-11-06, 08:57 AM
I really want to say that Cone leaving the Yankees, and going to the Red Sox, was one of the saddest days of my life.Coney was always my favorite Yankee while he was with the team. There are other players that I've come to be a fan of in the years since, including Mussina, but I don't think there will ever be another player that I like as much as I did Cone.

Thing is, Cone didn't just help make his fellow pitchers better, he helped all his teammates. He was a real leader in the clubhouse and not just among the pitching staff, he often spoke for the team to the media and for his teammates to management. He reached out to players who were having problems and he was great with the fans too. Aspects of that kind of leadership is present among a few players in a variety of ways, but I don't think there's been a Cone type of personality who brings so much to the table like that since he left.

Nettles
10-11-06, 09:25 AM
Please take a breath before throwing darts at me, please!

I think that by telling the players "World Championship or Else!", you are putting completely unrealistic pressure on them, and it is actually helping to delay winning a World Series.

I believe that part of our postseason failures the last few years has been that everyone else is loose, excited about being there, while our guys are "all business". That was not the case in 1996, that's for sure, when our guys, not favored, were loose, and overecame all obstacles to win it all, and start the great run under Torre.

I am NOT SAYING that we should accept mediocrity. Nor am I against putting together the best team possible. But I think the Yankees should just get out there, play hard, win as many games as possible, know that their fans appreciate their efforts. More importantly, the Boss and the front office should let the players know the same thing.

Maybe, just maybe, taking some of the dire seriousness out of the Mission Statement, we can see the Yankees return to the top, where they belong. (And yes, I know that I was just guilty of violating my own principles. Tough!:D )

Just my 2c.

stephsamps
10-11-06, 09:29 AM
That Labor Day, 1996 game where David Cone no-hit Oakland for the 7 innings he pitched in his first start back was absolutely incredible. I can still remember Bernie Williams robbing that HR at the wall to preserve the no-no.

Cone, unlike Mussina, had tremendous composure on the mound. If an error was made, he would ratchet up his intensity instead of suffering a letdown.

David Cone was definitely one of my favorites during the turnaround years. The trade for him in 1995 really solidified what we were doing as an organization. Remember all the "Hired Gun" headlines?

To this day Coney is still my favorite pitcher of my lifetime (Mo's probably a close second). It will take a lot of chutzpa to replace Coney on my all time list. I remember when he came here, he was that "journeyman" but he really became a Yankee and at times carried the Yankees. Paulie gets and deserves a lot of credit for the passion he brought to those teams, but Coney had IT too.

DontHateOnNumber2
10-11-06, 09:37 AM
I understand where your coming from, but 4 rings in 5 years tends to spoil certain people, and the fans that became fans during or after the Dynasty because of the Dynasty expect nothing less of a ring (IMO) because they still see Jeter, Posada, Rivera, and mainly Torre. Add to the fans the fact that the papers expect the Yankees to roll over everyone, and of course the biggest Yankees' fan (when they're winning) George Steinbrenner. I expect a little more than half of the pressure to succeed comes from knowing that the Boss is constantly keeping close watch on the team.

Bleacher_Creature
10-11-06, 09:38 AM
Please take a breath before throwing darts at me, please!

I think that by telling the players "World Championship or Else!", you are putting completely unrealistic pressure on them, and it is actually helping to delay winning a World Series.

I believe that part of our postseason failures the last few years has been that everyone else is loose, excited about being there, while our guys are "all business". That was not the case in 1996, that's for sure, when our guys, not favored, were loose, and overecame all obstacles to win it all, and start the great run under Torre.

I am NOT SAYING that we should accept mediocrity. Nor am I against putting together the best team possible. But I think the Yankees should just get out there, play hard, win as many games as possible, know that their fans appreciate their efforts. More importantly, the Boss and the front office should let the players know the same thing.

Maybe, just maybe, taking some of the dire seriousness out of the Mission Statement, we can see the Yankees return to the top, where they belong. (And yes, I know that I was just guilty of violating my own principles. Tough!:D )

Just my 2c.

They do seem to tense up (or choke) once the post season comes, I think it has a lot to do with the kind of players you have. The guys we had in the mid-late 90's actually seemed to relish pressure situations, to the point that they were "cool" under pressure. This group seems to cave into the pressure. Maybe your right, the expectations may be too much for this group.

Still 9 straight AL East division crowns isn't easy, we've been in the playoffs every year since '95, should've been since '94 (Mattingly's year for a ring). Hey maybe it's the Mattingly jinx!!! I'm Kidding, I'm only Kidding. :)

yankeeman61
10-11-06, 10:09 AM
Please take a breath before throwing darts at me, please!

I think that by telling the players "World Championship or Else!", you are putting completely unrealistic pressure on them, and it is actually helping to delay winning a World Series.

I believe that part of our postseason failures the last few years has been that everyone else is loose, excited about being there, while our guys are "all business". That was not the case in 1996, that's for sure, when our guys, not favored, were loose, and overecame all obstacles to win it all, and start the great run under Torre.

I am NOT SAYING that we should accept mediocrity. Nor am I against putting together the best team possible. But I think the Yankees should just get out there, play hard, win as many games as possible, know that their fans appreciate their efforts. More importantly, the Boss and the front office should let the players know the same thing.

Maybe, just maybe, taking some of the dire seriousness out of the Mission Statement, we can see the Yankees return to the top, where they belong. (And yes, I know that I was just guilty of violating my own principles. Tough!:D )

Just my 2c.

Your point is quite valid but there's no way to back off the mission statement after it's been stated while you have a $200M payroll to achieve it. The only way you could reasonably "change" it is if you completely blew up the team and lower the expectations. I don't think that would fly with the 4.2M fans who sold out Yankee Stadium this year while a billion dollar stadium is being built.

The best thing that could happen is if George keeps quiet and continues to let Cashman handle the personnel moves.

yankeebot
10-11-06, 10:13 AM
Question to anyone that works for a company with a mission statement: Does it have any affect on how you do your job? I know mine doesn't.

b_joseph
10-11-06, 10:15 AM
Nobody is saying ''World championship or else''!!.

Beacuse if they were, Mr Torre wouldnt still have a job and alot of players wouldnt still be wearing pinstripes.

4bronxbombers
10-11-06, 10:18 AM
Question to anyone that works for a company with a mission statement: Does it have any affect on how you do your job? I know mine doesn't.

My companys mission statement is always in the forefront of my mind so I would say yes.

yankeeman61
10-11-06, 10:20 AM
Question to anyone that works for a company with a mission statement: Does it have any affect on how you do your job? I know mine doesn't.

No, generally not in the corporate world. But this is baseball. While it is a business it's the busniess of sports.

I would say that dictators do exist in the business world and if they are on a mission they can have an affect on your job. My company is going through major structural changes and just about everyone is gulping the Mission Statement Kool-Aid.

AlbanyColonieYankee
10-11-06, 10:22 AM
Question to anyone that works for a company with a mission statement: Does it have any affect on how you do your job? I know mine doesn't.

No. But I think what he is referring to is not the "mission statement" per se but the whole attitude/culture of the team.

Gehrig'sGhost
10-11-06, 10:24 AM
No, generally not in the corporate world. But this is baseball. While it is a business it's the busniess of sports.

I would say that dictators do exist in the business world and if they are on a mission they can have an affect on your job. My company is going through major structural changes and just about everyone is gulping the Mission Statement Kool-Aid.

And you don't have 50,000 watching you work live, boo your ass when you make a mistake, have a stupid pretty girl ask you inane questions within 5 minutes after your shift ends, and then have it plastered all over the news in print and video that you're a no good bum when you go 2-18.

ThePost
10-11-06, 10:24 AM
Every teams goal should be to win it all or they aren't real professionals.

b_joseph
10-11-06, 10:29 AM
Every teams goal should be to win it all or they aren't real professionals.
Within reason, ofcourse.

The Yankees goal is day and night compared to the goal of the Royals. Or other 2nd rate teams, eg: Boston

gold23
10-11-06, 10:34 AM
I agree with the initial post, and in a perfect world that is how things would be. Are the expectations unrealistic? No, as the players are generally capable of winning in any given year- based on the talent level assembled.

But I absolutely agree that the immense pressure on these guys in October is unlike anything other clubs have to deal with. People react to situations differently, and you can only guess as to how certain players will react once they are placed in that pressure.

Saxmania
10-11-06, 10:34 AM
I agree completely. The team needs to understand that what happened from 1996-2000 was the exception, not the rule. That's no reason not to celebrate those teams - in fact, we should celebrate them even more, because chances are that kind of success needs luck as well as talent, and we may never see that confluence of luck and talent again.

But in baseball, you've got to relax and concentrate, not be petrified of failure or angry at yourself for failing to live up to the accomplishments of past teams. As much as poor luck is to blame for 2005-6, I think the pressure of expectations is weighing on the team - and not just Rodriguez.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

I Heart Jeter
10-11-06, 10:36 AM
And you don't have 50,000 watching you work live, boo your ass when you make a mistake, have a stupid pretty girl ask you inane questions within 5 minutes after your shift ends, and then have it plastered all over the news in print and video that you're a no good bum when you go 2-18.

Who's the pretty girl?

yankeebot
10-11-06, 10:41 AM
And you don't have 50,000 watching you work live, boo your ass when you make a mistake, have a stupid pretty girl ask you inane questions within 5 minutes after your shift ends, and then have it plastered all over the news in print and video that you're a no good bum when you go 2-18.
I understand and agree with your post to a point. For us, though, that seems much more difficult since it is so outside our norm. For a veteran player with the Yankees, that is the norm. You adjust to things that you deal with on a regular basis. I think most players take it in stride. Those that don't move on.

I also disagree with the main premise of this thread that the failures of the past few years are in any way due to or affected by the mission statement. And for those that think it should change, what do you propose? "Do Your Best"?

CommerceComet
10-11-06, 11:35 AM
I believe that part of our postseason failures the last few years has been that everyone else is loose, excited about being there, while our guys are "all business". That was not the case in 1996, that's for sure, when our guys, not favored, were loose, and overecame all obstacles to win it all, and start the great run under Torre.How about the Atlanta Braves for Exhibit #2? After winning a bunch of NL East titles and then choking, I think they experienced much of the same pressure. Their fans and the baseball world expected them to take it to the next level. And you can't blame their failures on a flawed pitching staff.

A lot of fans accuse ARod of failing because he puts too much pressure on himself (and I think this is true) and thus he will never succeed in the post-season (which I think is false). But why couldn't the same phenomonen affect a whole team?

Lifelong Fan
10-11-06, 11:50 AM
Our Mission statement is a major reason why we are able to sign free agents and make trades like the one we made for Arod. Some players will even take less money to play for the Yankees. Don't forget that a few years ago people refused to play for the Yankees. Now, they are lined up to play because they want a chance at a World Series ring. We have had several players come out and say that they would love to play in New York, before they are even approached. Some of the reasons are Joe Torre, the class of the organization, the way they are treated by the organization and lastly they want to win before their careers are over.

Gehrig'sGhost
10-11-06, 11:53 AM
I understand and agree with your post to a point. For us, though, that seems much more difficult since it is so outside our norm. For a veteran player with the Yankees, that is the norm. You adjust to things that you deal with on a regular basis. I think most players take it in stride. Those that don't move on.

I also disagree with the main premise of this thread that the failures of the past few years are in any way due to or affected by the mission statement. And for those that think it should change, what do you propose? "Do Your Best"?

I always think that "do your best" should be the "no need to be stated" ethos in any business or endeavor. I don't necessarily think that the "Mission Statement", as described in this thread, is the cause of failure, but it sets up most seasons to end in failure. Even Jeter has said that unless the Yankees win the World Series, the SEASON IS A FAILURE. OK, maybe it would be alright to say, "We didn't reach our goal", but to say the season is a failure and not feel happy about and proud of other accomplishments is getting REALLY old. And, it conditions everyone to be unrealistic, if not fatalistic. I don't care if you have the best team of all-time, you're not going to win EVERY postseason series, regardless of the teams involved. To say losing a series and not being World Champions makes the season a failure, to me, is absolutely ridiculous.

In other words, and to make a long story short, there is plenty of room for satisfaction between, "We are failures" and "We gave it our best".

Ducky
10-11-06, 12:02 PM
Question to anyone that works for a company with a mission statement: Does it have any affect on how you do your job? I know mine doesn't.

I pissed my company's mission statement on the wall in the bathroom. It took a couple of trips, but the craftsmanship is quite good.

yankeebot
10-11-06, 12:19 PM
I always think that "do your best" should be the "no need to be stated" ethos in any business or endeavor. I don't necessarily think that the "Mission Statement", as described in this thread, is the cause of failure, but it sets up most seasons to end in failure. Even Jeter has said that unless the Yankees win the World Series, the SEASON IS A FAILURE. OK, maybe it would be alright to say, "We didn't reach our goal", but to say the season is a failure and not feel happy about and proud of other accomplishments is getting REALLY old. And, it conditions everyone to be unrealistic, if not fatalistic. I don't care if you have the best team of all-time, you're not going to win EVERY postseason series, regardless of the teams involved. To say losing a series and not being World Champions makes the season a failure, to me, is absolutely ridiculous.

In other words, and to make a long story short, there is plenty of room for satisfaction between, "We are failures" and "We gave it our best". But Jeter absolutely believes that and as long as he sets the tone for this team, it is not going to change. (not that I personally want it to)

TEPLimey
10-11-06, 12:20 PM
Who's the pretty girl?

Suzyn Waldman

Gehrig'sGhost
10-11-06, 12:22 PM
But Jeter absolutely believes that and as long as he sets the tone for this team, it is not going to change. (not that I personally want it to)

In that case, you're BOTH wrong. Ha! :)

SecretChiSoxFan
10-11-06, 01:06 PM
That same basic mission statement never bothered Michael Jordan.

And when you can go out at the deadline and pick up.....oh how about an Abreau and add him to an already loaded lineup, you better expect great things. The White Sox had to trot our Brian Anderson and Scott Podsednik with Jermain Dye in the outfield, brutal. Kenny Williams would have creamed to have the resource$ to add an Abreau at the deadline.

I'm not a Yankee fan per say, but that's what I LOVE about following this team. They just expect greatness. You all may take that for granted, but it's pretty cool.

DCfan
10-11-06, 01:09 PM
I understand where your coming from, but 4 rings in 5 years tends to spoil certain people, and the fans that became fans during or after the Dynasty because of the Dynasty expect nothing less of a ring (IMO) because they still see Jeter, Posada, Rivera, and mainly Torre. Add to the fans the fact that the papers expect the Yankees to roll over everyone, and of course the biggest Yankees' fan (when they're winning) George Steinbrenner. I expect a little more than half of the pressure to succeed comes from knowing that the Boss is constantly keeping close watch on the team.
These are really good points -- nothing leads to lofty expectations quite like success. And, there's no denying how team payroll factors into the expectations game. If the team could win repeatedly while not wildly outspending the competition, it would be reasonable for fans to expect the team to win repeatedly while wildly outspending the competition.

I was going through the "team by team payroll" numbers over the past decade on usatoday.com, and I was struck by how little (relatively) the Yankees spent during the dynasty years. I mean, they were #1 in payroll every year except 1998, the best year of them all, when they were #2 to Baltimore, but the gap between the Yanks and everyone else wasn't that big. I won't bore you with every single year -- edit: changed my mind; I'll bore you with every single year:

1996:
Team payroll = $52m (1st in MLB)
median league payroll = $30m
# of teams within $10m = 3 (Bal, Atl, Cle).
# of teams within $20m = 12
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 7
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 19.

1997:
Team payroll = $59m (1st)
median league payroll = $39m
# of teams within $10m = 5 (Bal, CWS, Cle, Atl, Tex)
# of teams within $20m = 14
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 8
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 20.

1998:
Team payroll = $63 (2nd to Balt)
median league payroll = $40m
# of teams within $10m = 4 (Bal, Atl, Cle, Tex)
# of teams within $20m = 13
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 12
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 21.


1999:
Team payroll = $88m (1st)
median league payroll = $46m
# of teams within $10m = 1 (Tex)
# of teams within $20m = 8
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 8
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 16

2000:
Team payroll = $92m (1st)
median league payroll = $57m
# of teams within $10m = 3 (LA, Bal, Atl)
# of teams within $20m = 7
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 8
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 19

2001:
Team payroll = $112m (1st)
median league payroll = $64m
# of teams within $10m = 2 (Bos, LA)
# of teams within $20m = 4
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 7
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 18

So, through this era, more than half the league had a payroll at least half of what the Yankees had. And, while median payrolls increased around 213%, the Yankees' payroll increased about the same (approx 215%). And they won four titles and came within a whisker of winning a 5th. So, expectations were already high; the increased salaries only fueled that fire. Look how much things changed over the past five years:

2002:
Team payroll = $126m (1st)
median league payroll = $61m
# of teams within $10m = 0 [for the first time]
# of teams within $20m = 1 (Bos)
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 5
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 13

2003:
Team payroll = $153m (1st)
median league payroll = $70m
# of teams within $10m = 0
# of teams within $20m = 0 [for the first time. NYM were closest at $117m]
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 1
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 11

2004:
Team payroll = $184m (1st)
median league payroll = $62m
# of teams within $10m = 0
# of teams within $20m = 0 [Bos was closest at $127m]
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 0 [for the first time]
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 5

2005:
Team payroll = $208m (1st)
median league payroll = $66m
# of teams within $10m = 0
# of teams within $20m = 0 [Bos was closest at $124m]
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 0
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 1

2006:
Team payroll = $195m (1st)
median league payroll = $72m
# of teams within $10m = 0
# of teams within $20m = 0 [Bos was closest at $120m]
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 0
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 5

It looks to me that the organization is living up to its mission statement; it's trying to put the team in an excellent position, not only to compete, but to win a title every year. So yes, maybe the fans' expectations are unrealistically high, but they're understandable.

(Sorry for the long post; I thought the numbers --- and particularly the contrast between 1996-2001 and 2003-present --- were pretty striking.)

hugelongtermdeal
10-11-06, 01:25 PM
These are really good points -- nothing leads to lofty expectations quite like success. And, there's no denying how team payroll factors into the expectations game. If the team could win repeatedly while not wildly outspending the competition, it would be reasonable for fans to expect the team to win repeatedly while wildly outspending the competition.

I was going through the "team by team payroll" numbers over the past decade on usatoday.com, and I was struck by how little (relatively) the Yankees spent during the dynasty years. I mean, they were #1 in payroll every year except 1998, the best year of them all, when they were #2 to Baltimore, but the gap between the Yanks and everyone else wasn't that big. I won't bore you with every single year -- edit: changed my mind; I'll bore you with every single year:

1996:
Team payroll = $52m (1st in MLB)
median league payroll = $30m
# of teams within $10m = 3 (Bal, Atl, Cle).
# of teams within $20m = 12
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 7
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 19.

1997:
Team payroll = $59m (1st)
median league payroll = $39m
# of teams within $10m = 5 (Bal, CWS, Cle, Atl, Tex)
# of teams within $20m = 14
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 8
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 20.

1998:
Team payroll = $63 (2nd to Balt)
median league payroll = $40m
# of teams within $10m = 4 (Bal, Atl, Cle, Tex)
# of teams within $20m = 13
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 12
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 21.


1999:
Team payroll = $88m (1st)
median league payroll = $46m
# of teams within $10m = 1 (Tex)
# of teams within $20m = 8
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 8
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 16

2000:
Team payroll = $92m (1st)
median league payroll = $57m
# of teams within $10m = 3 (LA, Bal, Atl)
# of teams within $20m = 7
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 8
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 19

2001:
Team payroll = $112m (1st)
median league payroll = $64m
# of teams within $10m = 2 (Bos, LA)
# of teams within $20m = 4
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 7
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 18

So, through this era, more than half the league had a payroll at least half of what the Yankees had. And, while median payrolls increased around 213%, the Yankees' payroll increased about the same (approx 215%). And they won four titles and came within a whisker of winning a 5th. So, expectations were already high; the increased salaries only fueled that fire. Look how much things changed over the past five years:

2002:
Team payroll = $126m (1st)
median league payroll = $61m
# of teams within $10m = 0 [for the first time]
# of teams within $20m = 1 (Bos)
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 5
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 13

2003:
Team payroll = $153m (1st)
median league payroll = $70m
# of teams within $10m = 0
# of teams within $20m = 0 [for the first time. NYM were closest at $117m]
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 1
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 11

2004:
Team payroll = $184m (1st)
median league payroll = $62m
# of teams within $10m = 0
# of teams within $20m = 0 [Bos was closest at $127m]
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 0 [for the first time]
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 5

2005:
Team payroll = $208m (1st)
median league payroll = $66m
# of teams within $10m = 0
# of teams within $20m = 0 [Bos was closest at $124m]
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 0
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 1

2006:
Team payroll = $195m (1st)
median league payroll = $72m
# of teams within $10m = 0
# of teams within $20m = 0 [Bos was closest at $120m]
# of teams spending 3/4 of the Yanks = 0
# of teams spending 1/2 of the Yanks = 5

It looks to me that the organization is living up to its mission statement; it's trying to put the team in an excellent position, not only to compete, but to win a title every year. So yes, maybe the fans' expectations are unrealistically high, but they're understandable.

(Sorry for the long post; I thought the numbers --- and particularly the contrast between 1996-2001 and 2003-present --- were pretty striking.)


Very interesting analysis. The number of teams paying 50% of the yanks payroll is particularly striking.

Although the yankees are playing within the rules, it makes you wonder if the rules need to change.

Nettles
10-11-06, 02:45 PM
It seems to me that most of those who chose to respond agree with my main premise here - that the expecation of a Ring each year is just a bit unrealistic to be counterproductive.

Let me make a few random points to consider in this discussion:

(a) Some here talk about they late 90s guys who responded well to the pressure: Tino, Brosius, etc. But does that mean that 90% of major leaguers will also respond that way? And if not, do we want to limit ourselves to only that 10% who do? Would'nt we like to have a team where a great player can succeed, even if he is not made in Jeter's mold?

(b) And, speaking of Jeter, I love the fact that he shoots for the stars each year. He is the consummate professional, and consummate winner. But that does not mean that we have to demand that type of "Win or Else" mentality on all his teammates.

(c) As to those who ask "What should our mission statement be"? The answer, like every team, is to try and win a championshiop. But to stop and appreciate the accomplishments, regardless of the level you reach that year.

(d) Finally, do most Yankee fans appreciate just how great the teams from 1996-2000 were? I know that older fans do. And many younger fans probably do by now (after a few 'disappointment' seasons). Please remember, only 3 teams had ever won 3 WS in a row, prior to the Torre Yankees! And the record of winning 11 playoff series in a row (between 1998 and 2001) is something we may never see again in baseball.

John Sterling said on the radio, sometime in '99: "Folks, these ARE the good old days. Enjoy it while you can."

Let all those who are fotunate enough to love the greatest professional sports team appreciate what they have! Go Yankees!!

BxBomber44
10-11-06, 02:49 PM
lets change our mission from world series to best pitching :D

YankeePride1967
10-11-06, 02:52 PM
The goal on any team is to win the World championship. To me, to set it anywhere less would be a defeatist attitude. That being said, I don't think the simple fact that it wasn't accomplished means heads have to roll. No one should EXPECT to win it.

fredgmuggs
10-11-06, 02:54 PM
The new mission statement.... good enough, is good enough

BxBomber44
10-11-06, 02:54 PM
ya but the boss has the mindset. he expects...and that thought cohessively has a negative impact on every aspect of the team. except for Torre!

Mattpat11
10-11-06, 02:57 PM
How about the Atlanta Braves for Exhibit #2? After winning a bunch of NL East titles and then choking, I think they experienced much of the same pressure. Their fans and the baseball world expected them to take it to the next level. And you can't blame their failures on a flawed pitching staff.

?

The Atlanta Braves don't have fans. They can't even sellout playoff games.


What should the mission statement be? "Eh, whatever."?

Mattpat11
10-11-06, 03:00 PM
(c) As to those who ask "What should our mission statement be"? The answer, like every team, is to try and win a championshiop. But to stop and appreciate the accomplishments, regardless of the level you reach that year.


What accomplishments? The Eastern Division title that hasn't meant a damn thing in 30 years?

Nettles
10-11-06, 03:09 PM
What accomplishments? The Eastern Division title that hasn't meant a damn thing in 30 years?

To my way of thinking, coming from 8 games behind to sweep the Red Sox and winning the division by 11 games is an accomplishment.

Does that mean I am happy with how the playoffs went? Of course not. But do I now look at all the excitement and enjoyment I got from the 2006 regular season and retroactively cancel it? Does it not matter, since we did not win it all?

How about looking back to some of the great moments of the last 25 years? Those in non-Ring seasons?

Righetti's no-hitter in 1983.
Donnie's homer streak in 1987.
Jim Abbott's no-hitter in 1993.
Jimmy Leyritz in Game 2 in 1995.
3 homers in a row, Game 1, 1997 ALDS.
Jeter back-flip in Game 4, 2001 ALDS.
2001 World Series, Games 3, 4 and 5 (need I say more?).
Aaron Boone 2003.

I could make a much bigger list, but you get the idea? Rooting for you team is supposed to be fun. Diversionary. Etc.

According to some here, rooting for the Yankees is bound to be just as stressful and depressing as, perhaps, some other more "serious" aspects of life.

Life's too short, folks.

Mattpat11
10-11-06, 03:24 PM
To my way of thinking, coming from 8 games behind to sweep the Red Sox and winning the division by 11 games is an accomplishment.



So is being the thinnest kid at fat camp.



Does that mean I am happy with how the playoffs went? Of course not. But do I now look at all the excitement and enjoyment I got from the 2006 regular season and retroactively cancel it? Does it not matter, since we did not win it all? We were excited because it got us one step closer to a world title. Not because it earned us the prestigious eastern division title. When we didn't win the world title, all that work was for nothing. We got our little eastern division flags and went home.


3 homers in a row, Game 1, 1997 ALDS. I don't remember this at all. Shows how that held up.


Aaron Boone 2003.

Aaron Boone's play in the World Series cost us a championship.



Life's too short, folks Life's too short to celebrate mediocrity. When you declare failed seasons successful because they had a "special moment" at some point or another you are. I'm sure every team has had at least one special moment in every season. Has no one ever had a failed season?

AJW
10-11-06, 03:32 PM
Please take a breath before throwing darts at me, please!

I think that by telling the players "World Championship or Else!", you are putting completely unrealistic pressure on them, and it is actually helping to delay winning a World Series.

I believe that part of our postseason failures the last few years has been that everyone else is loose, excited about being there, while our guys are "all business". That was not the case in 1996, that's for sure, when our guys, not favored, were loose, and overecame all obstacles to win it all, and start the great run under Torre.

I am NOT SAYING that we should accept mediocrity. Nor am I against putting together the best team possible. But I think the Yankees should just get out there, play hard, win as many games as possible, know that their fans appreciate their efforts. More importantly, the Boss and the front office should let the players know the same thing.

Maybe, just maybe, taking some of the dire seriousness out of the Mission Statement, we can see the Yankees return to the top, where they belong. (And yes, I know that I was just guilty of violating my own principles. Tough!:D )

Just my 2c.

I agree Puff.

Nettles
10-11-06, 03:36 PM
I am honored, MattPat. I wish my kids would make the effort to respond to each point of mine as methodically as you did.;)

You can disagree with me! That's cool.

Sam18
10-11-06, 03:37 PM
Nah I think this immense pressure is clearly helping the players. If they weren't afraid of failure they probably get swept by the Tigers so the expectations by the fans and the media is very, very helpful.

aeromac76
10-11-06, 03:46 PM
So is being the thinnest kid at fat camp.

We were excited because it got us one step closer to a world title. Not because it earned us the prestigious eastern division title. When we didn't win the world title, all that work was for nothing. We got our little eastern division flags and went home.

I don't remember this at all. Shows how that held up.



Aaron Boone's play in the World Series cost us a championship.

Life's too short to celebrate mediocrity. When you declare failed seasons successful because they had a "special moment" at some point or another you are. I'm sure every team has had at least one special moment in every season. Has no one ever had a failed season?

I hate to sound like a jerk, but Matt is right..
How many people here remember Jim Leyritz big bomb off Wohlers? We all do, for sure. But how many harken back fondly to his 1995 game 2 15th inning walkoff against Tim Belcher at the Mariners? Very few remember that blast, because of the way that series ended. I started being a Yankee fan in 1986, and at the time of Leyritz bomb off Belcher in 1995, it was, at that moment, the biggest hit any Yankee player had gotten in my lifetime of fandom. But it never even registers on my radar screen when I talk about fond moments as a Yankee fan. We lost the series, end of story.
About the only time I recall findly a hit in a season in which we lost was Boone's HR. It was against the Sox, it was in game 7 extra innings and while we lost the WS we did win the LCS on that bomb, much in the same way as Bobby Thompson's shot heard round the world. Boone completed the greatest single game comeback I have ever seen in a playoff game along with Leyritz/Wohlers, and it was a pennant deciding game 7 no less! But that is the exception.
The 1997 ALDS had us roar back from the dead in game 1 on the strength of back to back to back bombs, 5 runs total, to win. No one recalls it fondly. Less than a week later we went home and that is all I take with me from 1997.
Even the thrilling 2001 WS games where we shocked Kim twice, they do not come with fond memories. All I see in 2001 is Luis Gonzalez's bloop over Jeter's head and crying about it. That is it..

rajah
10-13-06, 08:16 AM
To my way of thinking, coming from 8 games behind to sweep the Red Sox and winning the division by 11 games is an accomplishment.

Does that mean I am happy with how the playoffs went? Of course not. But do I now look at all the excitement and enjoyment I got from the 2006 regular season and retroactively cancel it? Does it not matter, since we did not win it all?

How about looking back to some of the great moments of the last 25 years? Those in non-Ring seasons?

Righetti's no-hitter in 1983.
Donnie's homer streak in 1987.
Jim Abbott's no-hitter in 1993.
Jimmy Leyritz in Game 2 in 1995.
3 homers in a row, Game 1, 1997 ALDS.
Jeter back-flip in Game 4, 2001 ALDS.
2001 World Series, Games 3, 4 and 5 (need I say more?).
Aaron Boone 2003.

I could make a much bigger list, but you get the idea? Rooting for you team is supposed to be fun. Diversionary. Etc.

According to some here, rooting for the Yankees is bound to be just as stressful and depressing as, perhaps, some other more "serious" aspects of life.

Life's too short, folks.

This is a great post.

Folks of course have every right to choose how they will be fans. But taking this attitude sure makes being a fan more fun. It is better for one's mental health and probably suggests that one has more in their life than being a fan.

After all, none of us are out there playing; none of us are out there managing or general managing. Our egos should not be on the line. We should have real lives in which we invest our egos. Taking joy out of Yankee victories and accomoplishments short of the WS is not accepting mediocrity in ourselves because not winning the WS is not our own failure any more than winning it is our own success.